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Reply #92: Whether there is a life after this present life is very much an open question for me [View All]

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MikeH Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Jun-06-09 05:32 PM
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92. Whether there is a life after this present life is very much an open question for me
My personal feeling has been that if there is anything at all to our sense of justice and fairness, and value and meaning of life, then there just has to be something after this present life. And I find very depressing the thought that after I, or anyone else, dies, that is it, there is nothing afterward, and no hope of justice for a person who receives the bad breaks in this life.

And I hate to think that all our good gifts and our experiences and our qualities of character are of value only for this short lifetime.

However I realize that my personal feelings do not prove anything, and that what I might wish to be true or strongly feel should or ought to be true, and what actually is true, are not always the same thing. And I also see that other people have strong personal feelings about the matter that are different from mine.

I myself used to be a Christian, and among other things, I liked to take comfort in the promise of life beyond the grave. However after seriously trying the Christian faith for a period of about 15 years of my life, I found that it had not been of any help to me in enabling me to better deal with any source of pain, frustration, or unhappiness in this life. I explain some of this here. Since Christianity for me did not live up to its promise of making a difference for me in this present life, I can no longer accept the certainty of a life hereafter based on the promise of the Christian faith, or on an account of something that supposedly happened 2000 years ago, or on what is said in any book that alleges to be some kind of revelation from God, such as the Bible. This was a disappointment for me, but something which I have had to accept.

The one hope for life after death is in the reports of near death experiences. I personally would very much like to think that these are manifestations of the life after the present life. Some accounts, such as in books and writings by Raymond A. Moody and others, seem very convincing.

I personally have never had any near death experience (and I don't think it would be wise to wish for such an experience!), nor do I know of anybody I know personally having had such an experience. And I have never personally experienced anything else that could be considered "supernatural", or that would indicate the reality of anything "supernatural", psychic, or paranormal.

However that does not mean that I regard as a certainty that such things are not real, and I do not want to make any statements or judgments regarding other people's experiences.

I consider myself to be a skeptic in the sense that I do not want to accept something as being true or certain based on insufficient evidence. For me this includes both the assertion, absent any verifying personal experience, that life after death, communications with deceased loved ones, and other "supernatural", paranormal, and psychic experiences, are for real, and the assertion that such things are definitely not for real. I particularly prefer to withhold judgment about other people’s reports or accounts of near death experiences, or communications with deceased relatives, or other alleged paranormal experiences, and what they would actually indicate.

I have some philosophical reasons for being open to at least the possible reality of life after death, and perhaps other things that might be considered paranormal or “supernatural”. When I was a Christian, one of my favorite writers was the noted apologist C. S. Lewis. Having at one time tried out Christianity and finding myself unhappy with it, I no longer accept his arguments regarding the person of Christ or tenets of the Christian faith (there have been criticisms of his trilemma argument, for instance), but I have liked and still like his arguments that our sense of reason, and our sense of right and wrong, and justice, must be rooted in some intelligence higher and greater than our own, and in some reality higher and greater than ourselves and the natural universe. He particularly makes this argument in the first six chapters of his book Miracles. If our sense of justice is actually rooted in some reality higher and greater than ourselves, rather than being just something that we happen to think and feel, then the idea of a possible life after this life is not entirely absurd or ridiculous. (And we do have near-death experiences, or reports of then.)

Of course even if our reason might indicate a higher reality or intelligence greater than ourselves, it is quite possible that any such reality or intelligence might not be exactly like the Christian God as envisioned by Christians like C. S. Lewis.

I would say that religiously I myself am closest to being a Deist, and just on the believing side of agnostic. Deists basically believe in a God or a Creator, but do not accept any alleged revelation from God (the Bible, the Koran, etc.). Deists advocate the use of reason, and a common position among Deists about life after death, seen in their web sites (typically mentioned in longer articles about other things), is a hope that there might be such a thing but an acceptance of uncertainty about the matter.

Of course if there actually is a life after this present life then there are many questions that can be asked. Such as, as was asked above, do animals have a life after this present life? If so, which animals? If there is a life after this life, do we really live forever, or do we die “for good” after a (perhaps very long) period of time? What about reincarnation? And won’t we get bored after perhaps a very, very long time, after we have done everything?

One thing that is comforting to me is that whatever is true about the matter is true, and is not subject to change, and is not affected by what I or anybody else might think or believe, or hope for or wish for. (This is unlike the outcome of an election, or a public policy decision!)
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  Nobody in DU believes in anything after this life? That's cool, but I just Mike 03  May-21-09 08:17 PM   #0 
   I believe. I'll go one step further. I'm sure of it.  Midlodemocrat   May-21-09 08:18 PM   #1 
   me, too :)  grannie4peace   May-21-09 08:20 PM   #5 
   Count me in, too.  Kajsa   May-21-09 08:22 PM   #11 
   Of course, you can be certain and wrong.  Marr   May-21-09 08:33 PM   #25 
   And one more step: we already know what it will be like  jgraz   Jun-02-09 08:05 PM   #88 
   If there wasn't a DU in the after-life then it wouldn't be worth it.  BlueJazz   May-21-09 08:18 PM   #2 
   I don't think so.  MineralMan   May-21-09 08:19 PM   #3 
   I firmly believe in God.  azmouse   May-21-09 08:20 PM   #4 
   What has the immortality or existence of God to do with this question?  aquart   May-21-09 08:28 PM   #16 
   I'm not sure I understand your point.  azmouse   May-21-09 08:30 PM   #22 
   Well, you've got vigorous assertion going for you. n/t  Silent3   May-21-09 10:09 PM   #38 
   Agreed. n/t  ChazII   May-30-09 12:48 PM   #84 
   Atheists can believe in afterlives too.  New Dawn   Jun-07-09 02:21 AM   #95 
   I'm not even sure I believe in this life. Certainly not an afterlife.  jobycom   May-21-09 08:20 PM   #6 
   I know that I don't want to test this theory just yet  OmahaBlueDog   May-21-09 08:20 PM   #7 
   I have three tickets to immortality  Xipe Totec   May-21-09 08:20 PM   #8 
   Well, decay is technically "something"...  MercutioATC   May-21-09 08:21 PM   #9 
   Keep faith and hope...this is just the "cleaning up."  KoKo   May-21-09 08:21 PM   #10 
   There are many here who believe in an afterlife.  Wapsie B   May-21-09 08:22 PM   #12 
   I believe the word "energy" gets terribly abused on DU. n/t  Silent3   May-21-09 10:07 PM   #37 
      Not much to choose from to express the intent ..  Why Syzygy   May-22-09 12:44 AM   #44 
         The abuse is typically to assume that a casual or non-scientific...  Silent3   May-22-09 11:12 AM   #51 
   I believe in some kind of reincarnation & a fairly nebulous higher power.  Vidar   May-21-09 08:24 PM   #13 
   It's interesting to think about..but believe? No, I require proof  cbc5g   May-21-09 08:24 PM   #14 
   I'm a loathing agnostic.  armyowalgreens   May-21-09 08:25 PM   #15 
   If you are able to prevent someone from performing some small evil act...  Boojatta   May-23-09 12:25 AM   #65 
      If God is all knowing and all capable than God can do all things at once.  armyowalgreens   May-23-09 05:33 AM   #66 
   Spirit  BeFree   May-21-09 08:28 PM   #17 
   I think it's extremely unlikely  Mojambo   May-21-09 08:28 PM   #18 
   Yes, I believe there is something next...and open minded about what it may be.  NRaleighLiberal   May-21-09 08:29 PM   #19 
   That's not true. If there is an afterlife we will know. If there isn't, no one will ever know.  armyowalgreens   May-21-09 08:31 PM   #23 
   You imply that mortality darkens your world view somehow.  Marr   May-21-09 08:29 PM   #20 
   Probably the same as it was before this life, only later.  Tierra_y_Libertad   May-21-09 08:30 PM   #21 
   perhaps inspired by Epicurus  pokerfan   May-30-09 06:53 PM   #85 
   There's a whole spectrum of opinions on the topic on DU.  InvisibleTouch   May-21-09 08:31 PM   #24 
   Yes.  H2O Man   May-21-09 08:36 PM   #26 
   Nobody knows what happens  Warpy   May-21-09 08:40 PM   #27 
   Reincarnation is a fact.  Speck Tater   May-21-09 08:42 PM   #28 
   Wow...that was so stupid it made my head hurt.  armyowalgreens   May-21-09 08:44 PM   #29 
   "If I cannot observe your claims, your claims are not true."  Speck Tater   May-21-09 10:58 PM   #41 
   LOL my husband says  MorningGlow   May-21-09 11:04 PM   #42 
   Don't even get me started on that big fraud  Speck Tater   May-22-09 12:08 AM   #43 
   Actually we can observe the act of someone dreaming.  armyowalgreens   May-22-09 03:31 AM   #46 
      If there is no way for anyone to observe this "reincarnation" you speak of, then it is not true.  Speck Tater   May-22-09 12:12 PM   #52 
         While I agree in the concept of subjective reality...  armyowalgreens   May-22-09 05:34 PM   #60 
            There is a difference between making a statement based solely on faith,  Speck Tater   May-22-09 07:17 PM   #62 
               I don't think you know what "faith" is...actually clearly you don't know...  armyowalgreens   May-23-09 05:40 AM   #67 
                  Fundamentalists really only hear what they want to hear, don't they? Whatever. nt  Speck Tater   May-23-09 12:32 PM   #69 
   If claims cannot be independently measured, they are unprovable.  patriotvoice   May-22-09 08:52 PM   #63 
      Thanks that is a bit easier to understand.  armyowalgreens   May-23-09 05:47 AM   #68 
   Right on!  MercutioATC   May-21-09 09:13 PM   #34 
   Unfalsifiable Statement. Epic Fail.  Odin2005   May-22-09 10:22 AM   #50 
   I dreamt of walking in the woods last night. Unfalsifiable statement. Epic Fail.  Speck Tater   May-22-09 12:34 PM   #54 
      +1 EOM  patriotvoice   May-22-09 08:54 PM   #64 
   Lots of assertions. Nothing to back them up. At all.  Random_Australian   Jun-02-09 06:35 AM   #86 
   You wake up and Morpheus says, "Welcome... to the REAL world."  Towlie   May-21-09 08:50 PM   #30 
   I, the relatively unique individual I am, I affect the physical world in a manner that is  patrice   May-21-09 08:53 PM   #31 
   Mark me down as a strong believer in the teachings of Christ  suchadeal   May-21-09 08:56 PM   #32 
   If my dog's not going, I'm not going.  Booster   May-21-09 08:59 PM   #33 
   Is believing without evidence a virtue? n/t  cosmik debris   May-21-09 09:17 PM   #35 
   There was no before-life...  LAGC   May-21-09 09:27 PM   #36 
   Amen. Uhh, I mean I concur. nt.  marybourg   May-21-09 10:25 PM   #39 
   Yep. You sound like another Epicurean.  onager   May-23-09 12:49 PM   #70 
   Oh, don't say "nobody"  MorningGlow   May-21-09 10:52 PM   #40 
   Why is materialism cyncial and jaded?  dmallind   May-27-09 08:17 AM   #73 
   Wait, did you just say that I'm jaded + cynical because I don't believe what you do?  Random_Australian   Jun-02-09 06:38 AM   #87 
   Mike, your sanity will have to support itself with its own experiments and observations.  azul   May-22-09 02:04 AM   #45 
   I have moral obligations (1) to act as if this may be all there is & (2) to hope for more than this  struggle4progress   May-22-09 03:46 AM   #47 
   I don't know...  TreasonousBastard   May-22-09 08:40 AM   #48 
   This is it. There is no afterlife. I can see how it would be comforting to believe there is.  raccoon   May-22-09 09:48 AM   #49 
   I use it as a reason to change things in this life.  Critters2   May-29-09 01:57 PM   #80 
   Why on Earth would you?  ChadwickHenryWard   May-22-09 12:28 PM   #53 
   What if it is as good as it's going to get?  BurtWorm   May-22-09 12:58 PM   #55 
   There is obviously *something* after life.  gcomeau   May-22-09 02:05 PM   #56 
   "Is this as good as it is going to get?"  ZombieHorde   May-22-09 02:14 PM   #57 
   I wasn't around in some "pre-life" for the billions of years before I was born  stopbush   May-22-09 02:19 PM   #58 
   I do, of course!  JerseygirlCT   May-22-09 03:59 PM   #59 
   Maybe, but it won't be religious  Dogmudgeon   May-22-09 07:06 PM   #61 
   I totally believe that consciousness never ends...I never was much of  sipping radicchio   May-26-09 07:28 PM   #71 
   What was it like for you before you were born?  dmallind   May-27-09 08:12 AM   #72 
   I believe we are inseparable from the life energy underlying the universe  deutsey   May-27-09 09:13 AM   #74 
   If there were an afterlife, why would it apply to just humans? Why  raccoon   May-27-09 10:29 AM   #75 
   Who said it only applied to humanoids? Animals have souls...  kay why 69   May-29-09 01:42 PM   #78 
   No reason to think it doesn't. nt  Critters2   May-29-09 01:57 PM   #81 
   Nope, I dont...when you die your dead...  and-justice-for-all   May-29-09 06:23 AM   #76 
   "Is this as good as it is going to get?"  Meshuga   May-29-09 07:15 AM   #77 
   But in the grand scheme of things, the here and now will be there and then...  kay why 69   May-29-09 01:44 PM   #79 
   Who says that those of us that believe in an afterlife "live for an afterlife"?  kentauros   May-30-09 08:42 AM   #82 
   "Paradise is exactly like where you are right now  CJCRANE   May-30-09 12:23 PM   #83 
   ...  Strong Atheist   Jun-06-09 06:09 PM   #93 
   Well, there *is*something, but I doubt its what you think it is  Taverner   Jun-03-09 01:21 PM   #89 
   "Where I am Death is not, Where Death is I am not" --Epicurus  Odin2005   Jun-03-09 05:38 PM   #90 
   What's interesting is to try to navigate the differences in beliefs from  saltpoint   Jun-04-09 05:35 AM   #91 
   Whether there is a life after this present life is very much an open question for me  MikeH   Jun-06-09 05:32 PM   #92 
   Actually, I don't believe in this life.  RagAss   Jun-07-09 12:18 AM   #94 
   I believe in reincarnation, and I believe that we spend time between...  I Have A Dream   Jun-07-09 01:30 PM   #96 
   Afterlife?  greentwiga   Jun-07-09 10:06 PM   #97 
 

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