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Reply #51: There is a qualitative difference of degree but they're essentially the same. [View All]

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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. There is a qualitative difference of degree but they're essentially the same.
"I believe in God" is primarily based on emotion or a feeling of spirit for it's foundation, however there may also be an element of survival logic embedded and passed down through the ages underpinning this belief.

"I believe that I believe in God." is more attuned to a logical statement, however just as the first has an element of survival logic embedded, I believe the second has an emotional underpinning of hope or longing to belong to something larger than oneself.

I believe the underlying logical foundation for faith to be based on the need for purpose, it seems the vast majority of humanity throughout history has felt this need. With some people the genetic requirement for this need may not be as acute, but I'm not certain as to whether it doesn't exist at all or is muted, switched off, until some crisis turns it on.

The point I was trying to make with my O.P. was that attacking the word "faith," even if you only meant of a religious nature is a shotgun approach, carrying subliminal overtones making it easier for some cynical, Machiavellian manipulators to abuse the people's religious faith and to employ fear in an alliance to defeat reason. I believe this is why some can't seem to preach enough damnation, fire and brimstone, while ignoring the more compassionate, loving, empathetic messages. I don't believe it to be a coincidence that structured religion has plenty of both, depending on the needs of the time.

Again in my analogy from Al Gore's book as I cited in the O.P. rock, paper scissors, if you own the rock and the scissors, paper doesn't stand a chance.
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  -The Problem With Demonizing the Word "Faith" Is In Giving Up Your Own Power Uncle Joe  Mar-31-09 03:27 PM   #0 
  - Oh, you were doing so well until you got to this:  Warpy   Mar-31-09 03:37 PM   #1 
  - Exactly - it's like saying that atheists are making a calculated gamble  Hugabear   Mar-31-09 03:45 PM   #2 
  - See: Pascal's Wager, and  Sinistrous   Mar-31-09 04:03 PM   #3 
  - Everybody makes calculated gambles everyday of their life.  Uncle Joe   Mar-31-09 04:10 PM   #6 
  - Do you realize the horrible equivocation of the word "faith" you're performing?  trotsky   Mar-31-09 04:43 PM   #16 
     - Not I, my belief is that was the minister's motivation on the link of the O.P.  Uncle Joe   Mar-31-09 05:21 PM   #19 
  - Nope  JustCommonSense   Mar-31-09 04:21 PM   #8 
  - "Anything believed"  Uncle Joe   Mar-31-09 04:06 PM   #4 
  - "faith" debate  JustCommonSense   Mar-31-09 04:09 PM   #5 
  - Welcome to D.U. JustCommonSense.  Uncle Joe   Mar-31-09 04:16 PM   #7 
  - Thanks - and peace to you as well.  JustCommonSense   Mar-31-09 04:30 PM   #9 
     - No my feelings are the same, welcome.  Uncle Joe   Mar-31-09 04:35 PM   #12 
     - Welcome to DU!  ayeshahaqqiqa   Mar-31-09 04:37 PM   #13 
  - Peace be with you  ayeshahaqqiqa   Mar-31-09 04:35 PM   #11 
  - Reasonable argument  ayeshahaqqiqa   Mar-31-09 04:32 PM   #10 
  - My belief is that I know nothing.  Uncle Joe   Mar-31-09 04:39 PM   #15 
     - I share your belief Uncle Joe  ironbark   Apr-01-09 07:16 AM   #28 
        - Ditto bro!  JustCommonSense   Apr-01-09 12:57 PM   #31 
  - Do you believe in Luke Skywalker?  Meshuga   Mar-31-09 04:39 PM   #14 
  - Do you believe science or physics has reached it's total culmination  Uncle Joe   Mar-31-09 05:12 PM   #18 
     - I don't believe that science or physics has reached its total culmination  Meshuga   Mar-31-09 07:51 PM   #22 
  - You may wish to research the difference between "strong" and "weak" atheism  TechBear_Seattle   Mar-31-09 04:53 PM   #17 
  - I believe, it's not possible to "not believe" without believing.  Uncle Joe   Mar-31-09 05:25 PM   #20 
     - You're describing your own limitation  Warpy   Mar-31-09 10:48 PM   #24 
     - That is stated very clearly Uncle Joe.  cambie   Mar-31-09 11:59 PM   #25 
     - Is there no difference between believing you believe something and believing in God, for example?  BurtWorm   Apr-02-09 09:57 AM   #50 
     - There is a qualitative difference of degree but they're essentially the same.  Uncle Joe   Apr-02-09 03:18 PM   #51 
        - You might think of the basic sort of faith you're talking about as an evolutionary adaptation.  BurtWorm   Apr-03-09 10:11 AM   #58 
           - Per my post #57, I don't view that sign as an affirmation of faith so much as a lack of it.  Uncle Joe   Apr-03-09 10:34 AM   #59 
              - But there are many people--more and more, in fact--who are living without faith in a creator.  BurtWorm   Apr-03-09 11:01 AM   #60 
                 - Throughout human history, belief in religious/spiritual matters have run through cycles,  Uncle Joe   Apr-03-09 11:37 AM   #61 
     - Until you're capable  skepticscott   Apr-02-09 05:05 PM   #54 
  - I don't associate any "power" with the word "faith" that I mind giving up.  Silent3   Mar-31-09 07:45 PM   #21 
  - You're an intelligent person and as such I wouldn't expect you  Uncle Joe   Apr-01-09 03:06 PM   #40 
     - There's no power in the word "faith" if you make it so bland...  Silent3   Apr-02-09 09:27 AM   #49 
        - If you don't view your atheism as a form of faith, I'm not suggesting you should use  Uncle Joe   Apr-02-09 04:08 PM   #52 
           - As long as we aren't in the realm of floating, shifting definitions of the word...  Silent3   Apr-02-09 04:31 PM   #53 
              - The problem is, religion evolves, but it always monopolizes the word "faith"  Uncle Joe   Apr-02-09 05:39 PM   #55 
  - I think there are inherent problems  rrneck   Mar-31-09 09:07 PM   #23 
  - I agree with your ideals, rmeck.  Uncle Joe   Apr-01-09 02:46 PM   #37 
     - I agree.  rrneck   Apr-01-09 11:28 PM   #48 
  - One needs to distinguish faith from blind faith.  Odin2005   Apr-01-09 12:29 AM   #26 
  - I agree to an extent, Odin but I believe the minister posting that message on his marquee  Uncle Joe   Apr-01-09 02:10 PM   #33 
  - All this nitpicking about a stupid word. Who the fuck cares...all I know is that I have no belief in  Evoman   Apr-01-09 12:47 AM   #27 
  - You are fortunate  JustCommonSense   Apr-01-09 12:55 PM   #30 
  - One can HOPE without having FAITH.  PassingFair   Apr-01-09 07:33 AM   #29 
  - If hope and faith aren't twins, they're at least siblings,  Uncle Joe   Apr-01-09 02:30 PM   #35 
     - Wishing and believing are two different things....  PassingFair   Apr-01-09 03:16 PM   #41 
        - I agree, but they spring from the same root.  Uncle Joe   Apr-01-09 03:27 PM   #43 
  - "I believe I'll have a beer" is not a statement of faith.  cosmik debris   Apr-01-09 01:49 PM   #32 
  - To a microscopic degree, it might be,  Uncle Joe   Apr-01-09 02:21 PM   #34 
     - You have made the definition so broad  cosmik debris   Apr-01-09 02:32 PM   #36 
        - I would love to take the credit for broadening the definition,  Uncle Joe   Apr-01-09 02:48 PM   #38 
           - It is ridiculous to say that one definition applies to ALL uses.  cosmik debris   Apr-01-09 02:58 PM   #39 
              - I believe on a subliminal level it can, I also believe language continually evolves, now you can sit  Uncle Joe   Apr-01-09 03:25 PM   #42 
                 - Your Holy Book is infallible and You are the Prophet  cosmik debris   Apr-01-09 03:58 PM   #44 
                 - First you said I broadened the definition and now you say I've chosen only one?  Uncle Joe   Apr-01-09 05:18 PM   #45 
                    - I think you are being an idiot on purpose.  cosmik debris   Apr-01-09 05:54 PM   #46 
                       - If you have given me any benefit of the doubt on this thread or any other thread, I missed it.  Uncle Joe   Apr-01-09 06:41 PM   #47 
                 - I agree with the church sign's meaning, but not its intended significance.  Silent3   Apr-02-09 10:43 PM   #56 
                    - I can understand your point of view. but I see no reason  Uncle Joe   Apr-03-09 09:51 AM   #57 
                       - If by faith you simply mean "things that are believed"...  Silent3   Apr-03-09 01:54 PM   #62 
                          - Can you name any religion or faith that isn't outside of the realm of reason,  Uncle Joe   Apr-03-09 06:27 PM   #63 
  - In french we use the word ''foi'' and it's specifically referring to the religious connotation  Sandrine for you   Apr-03-09 07:39 PM   #64 
  - Thanks for the historical background on the roots of the word faith, Sandrine for you,  Uncle Joe   Apr-04-09 12:29 PM   #66 
  - And, as a french speaker, I'm betting a 5 that you do not properly using the Pascal gambles. nt  Sandrine for you   Apr-03-09 08:49 PM   #65 
     - As an agnostic, mystic, *Buddhist, Baptist, mutt I wouldn't take that bet.  Uncle Joe   Apr-04-09 12:41 PM   #67 

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