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Reply #29: That's pretty much my point. [View All]

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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. That's pretty much my point.
As an outsider, it seems to me that unless you can come to a consensus about what constitutes the most basic tenets of your religion, then you have no business criticizing the beliefs of others who claim to be of the same religion.

Since adherence is determined by self-identification, it doesn't necessarily matter if there's any consensus about basic beliefs as long as ALL adherents acknowledge that all other adherents are representative of the religion--that it's a big tent and you accept the good along with the bad. This of course is rejected every time a Christian side-steps criticism by saying that their congregation/personal faith is different or that the belief in question isn't held by 'real Christians.'

I frequently see self-identified Christians call out other self-identified Christians as 'not a real Christian' as a way of distancing themselves from some things that range from reprehensible to just ridiculous. As I see it, if there's no basic creed that ALL Christians can agree on (by agree, I mean accept all parts of without condition rather than encompassing the entirety of someone's faith), then none of you are 'real Christians.'

If there aren't any true Christians, then it's a meaningless label that makes a hypocrite out of any of the self-labeled who criticize others wearing the same label on the non-existent foundations of the label. Using qualifiers to describe a specific sect is meaningless unless that sect is universally acknowledged as independent. You can't label someone else as outside the religion and at the same time be unable to define what places someone inside the religion.
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  -What defines a Christian? laconicsax  Nov-28-08 02:39 PM   #0 
  - without jesus you are going to that hot place even if you've lived a perfect life? nt  msongs   Nov-28-08 02:43 PM   #1 
  - According to Martin Luther, yes.  laconicsax   Nov-28-08 03:11 PM   #6 
  - Yes, Martin Luther was so disgusted by the selling of indulgences,  Lydia Leftcoast   Nov-28-08 05:31 PM   #12 
  - No, you are not going to that hot place even if you didn't live a perfect life...  mikelewis   Nov-28-08 10:34 PM   #20 
     - That's interesting.  laconicsax   Nov-29-08 12:41 AM   #22 
     - I would tend to let the reported words of Christ trump Luke's Acts...  mikelewis   Nov-30-08 09:06 PM   #39 
        - So you acknowledge the uncertain authorship of the Bible, but decide for yourself which books count?  laconicsax   Dec-01-08 12:43 AM   #42 
           - I never said some books count and some do not...  mikelewis   Dec-01-08 11:53 AM   #49 
              - If you are not an authority on its contents, how do you know that you're right?  laconicsax   Dec-01-08 06:58 PM   #53 
                 - No one can be certain that they are right...  mikelewis   Dec-02-08 07:13 AM   #55 
     - I would have to disagree with you.  MiltonF   Nov-30-08 11:29 PM   #41 
        - Christ in not the name but the spirit...  mikelewis   Dec-01-08 08:07 AM   #47 
  - Jesus was not just an incarnation, he was the Son of God.  GodlessBiker   Nov-28-08 02:47 PM   #2 
  - Doesn't that imply polytheism?  laconicsax   Nov-28-08 06:58 PM   #14 
     - That's why the Catholics messed with the Creed.  knitter4democracy   Nov-30-08 08:13 AM   #31 
     - Exactly!  trixie   Dec-14-08 12:35 AM   #62 
  - The Nicene Creed  Turbineguy   Nov-28-08 02:51 PM   #3 
  - Which version?  knitter4democracy   Nov-29-08 09:08 AM   #26 
     - Pentecostals are heretics, according to the Ecumenical Councils  TechBear_Seattle   Dec-15-08 12:07 PM   #68 
  - Baptism  Xipe Totec   Nov-28-08 02:53 PM   #4 
  - Other religions have water-baptism and not all Christian sects do baptisms.  laconicsax   Nov-28-08 07:09 PM   #17 
  - Well, then I guess I and others like the Unitarian Universalists don't count  GreenPartyVoter   Nov-28-08 02:53 PM   #5 
  - Hence my original post.  laconicsax   Nov-28-08 03:20 PM   #7 
  - None. You will not find a definition that all of us agree upon because we  GreenPartyVoter   Nov-28-08 04:03 PM   #11 
     - So then how do you define someone as Christian?  laconicsax   Nov-28-08 07:06 PM   #16 
        - For myself, I was a literal Christian as a kid and I married into a RW evangelical family  GreenPartyVoter   Nov-28-08 07:17 PM   #18 
           - That would imply different religions under one banner.  laconicsax   Nov-29-08 01:01 AM   #23 
  - UUs don't have a creedal test.  Perragrande   Dec-03-08 01:45 AM   #57 
  - Jesus is the Son of God  ayeshahaqqiqa   Nov-28-08 03:27 PM   #8 
  - "being a christian" is used in (at least) two different ways:  Lerkfish   Nov-28-08 03:50 PM   #9 
  - In addition, within the last few decades, evangelicals and fundamentalists  Lydia Leftcoast   Nov-28-08 05:34 PM   #13 
  - That's anything but a recent phenomenon ...  arKansasJHawk   Nov-28-08 11:05 PM   #21 
  - Yep - as far as word meanings go, however  Taverner   Dec-30-08 02:49 PM   #77 
  - You're right, it doesn't help with the question I have.  laconicsax   Nov-29-08 01:13 AM   #24 
  - "Christian" is a word that people "tag" themselves with.  greendog   Nov-28-08 04:00 PM   #10 
  - So should that be considered a religion or a philosophy?  laconicsax   Nov-28-08 06:59 PM   #15 
     - The word "Christian" is like a bag with a fashionable logo printed on it.  greendog   Nov-28-08 07:30 PM   #19 
  - If in doubt, go to the root meaning of the word  muriel_volestrangler   Nov-29-08 08:20 AM   #25 
  - This is a more difficult question than you realize.  knitter4democracy   Nov-29-08 09:13 AM   #27 
  - Yup. What Knitter said. nt  JerseygirlCT   Nov-29-08 06:57 PM   #28 
  - That's pretty much my point.  laconicsax   Nov-29-08 08:16 PM   #29 
  - It sounds like what's really tripping you up is Christian code.  knitter4democracy   Nov-30-08 08:11 AM   #30 
     - Thanks, that's helpful.  laconicsax   Nov-30-08 03:31 PM   #35 
        - I think C should own up to A being part of the faith.  knitter4democracy   Nov-30-08 04:06 PM   #36 
           - It's good to know that people like you exist.  laconicsax   Nov-30-08 04:12 PM   #37 
              - Yeah, well, you should hear how my STBX-husband describes me.  knitter4democracy   Nov-30-08 06:08 PM   #38 
  - Christians self-identify. They are so because they say so.  TWiley   Nov-30-08 08:21 AM   #33 
  - I would say that most "Christians" are actually "Paulists"  TWiley   Nov-30-08 08:17 AM   #32 
  - It depends on which branch of Christianity you're talking about.  knitter4democracy   Nov-30-08 10:30 AM   #34 
  - There are far too many answers  quaker bill   Nov-30-08 10:05 PM   #40 
  - I have seen threads on this site (including this one) where posters seem to know.  laconicsax   Dec-01-08 01:34 AM   #43 
     - Seem to "believe" they know  quaker bill   Dec-01-08 06:45 AM   #46 
  - If you want the common denominator of all who call themselves Christian  HamdenRice   Dec-01-08 02:21 AM   #44 
  - I would edit that to say "People who CLAIM to follow the teachings of Jesus"  TWiley   Dec-01-08 04:33 AM   #45 
  - Edit 2: "People who claim to follow their cherry-picked teachings of Jesus", nt  greyl   Dec-01-08 02:21 PM   #50 
  - Or being a bit less negative: who "try" to do so. nt  JerseygirlCT   Dec-01-08 02:59 PM   #52 
  - I would agree that the most inclusive definition is the only  JerseygirlCT   Dec-01-08 02:58 PM   #51 
     - That would simply mean anyone who identifies themselves as Christian, right?  greyl   Dec-01-08 10:51 PM   #54 
        - Yes. It's self-identified, bottom-line  JerseygirlCT   Dec-02-08 07:19 AM   #56 
  - Whatever helps Xians look the best apparently.  dmallind   Dec-01-08 08:50 AM   #48 
  - I tend to think that religions are based on their books  sleebarker   Dec-03-08 09:22 PM   #58 
  - Hey, laconicsax , I believe I can help answer this for you.  peruban   Dec-04-08 03:39 AM   #59 
  - Revised list of general definition  peruban   Dec-04-08 05:08 AM   #60 
  - Taking Jesus Christ as Savior  trixie   Dec-14-08 12:30 AM   #61 
  - Ah, but how do you define that?  knitter4democracy   Dec-14-08 05:21 PM   #64 
     - That's the point  trixie   Dec-14-08 11:28 PM   #65 
        - So much for having a conversation, then.  knitter4democracy   Dec-15-08 09:25 AM   #66 
           - It's just another case of a non-believer trying to define believers.  cosmik debris   Dec-15-08 10:27 AM   #67 
              - Heck, I've got tons more to get under my skin these days.  knitter4democracy   Dec-16-08 11:34 AM   #70 
  - The answer to one simple question. What say you of Christ,  Sam1   Dec-14-08 12:58 PM   #63 
  - The Holy Spirit himself gave that definition more than a thousand years ago  TechBear_Seattle   Dec-15-08 12:16 PM   #69 
  - I agree!  knitter4democracy   Dec-16-08 11:35 AM   #71 
     - That is why questions like this are meaningless, or worse  TechBear_Seattle   Dec-16-08 12:27 PM   #72 
  - So, George W. Bush - Christian?  Fenmick   Dec-24-08 07:04 PM   #73 
  - Christians are self identifying.  Perragrande   Dec-30-08 03:57 AM   #74 
     - Agree.  PassingFair   Dec-30-08 11:04 AM   #75 
  - read the 3 three gospels  dcsmart   Dec-30-08 11:32 AM   #76 
  - To try to be like Christ  Taverner   Dec-30-08 02:52 PM   #78 
     - There's an even bigger problem you missed.  laconicsax   Dec-30-08 02:55 PM   #79 
        - HAHAHAHAHAHA true that  Taverner   Dec-30-08 02:56 PM   #80 
 

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