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Reply #34: I don't think faith is a necessary component of religion; [View All]

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. I don't think faith is a necessary component of religion;
I think it's just that it's a major element of Christianity, and we tend to think of Christianity when we say religion.
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  -Suppose I start a religion one of whose key tenets is that 2+2 = 4 Donald Ian Rankin  Aug-30-08 03:59 PM   #0 
  - Magic underwear! Magic underwear! I vote for classes on ONLY magic underwear!  valerief   Aug-30-08 04:00 PM   #1 
  - What does the right to bear arms have to with mathematical religion? n/t  TechBear_Seattle   Aug-30-08 04:03 PM   #2 
  - If you don't agree with him, he can shoot you.  baldguy   Aug-30-08 04:08 PM   #8 
  - Sorry; see below. Good catch...  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-30-08 07:34 PM   #24 
  - no matter what math your religion follows I don't think guns should be in schools  SteelPenguin   Aug-30-08 04:03 PM   #3 
  - It's not a religion if it's based on provable fact.  Kutjara   Aug-30-08 04:03 PM   #4 
  - aye, but can you prove it? If not, for you, it is religion.  thunder rising   Aug-30-08 04:13 PM   #9 
  - By that reasoning, anything a particular individual can't directly prove...  Kutjara   Aug-30-08 04:25 PM   #12 
     - Is there a  Zebedeo   Sep-03-08 06:45 PM   #53 
  - What do you mean by "empirically proven"?  Boojatta   Aug-30-08 05:10 PM   #15 
  - We can accept that Saul/Paul believed himself to be blind.  Kutjara   Aug-30-08 05:23 PM   #16 
     - How would Saul of Tarsus empirically prove that his sight returned at the touch of Ananias' hand?  Boojatta   Aug-30-08 05:30 PM   #17 
        - He can't.  Kutjara   Aug-30-08 05:36 PM   #18 
           - On the day that Saul's sight returned, what could he have done  Boojatta   Aug-30-08 05:43 PM   #19 
              - He could have walked across the room unaided, or picked up...  Kutjara   Aug-30-08 05:54 PM   #20 
                 - In the year 3008, who will be able to empirically prove that YOU ever existed?  Boojatta   Aug-30-08 05:57 PM   #21 
                 - We'll have to wait and see.  Kutjara   Aug-30-08 08:15 PM   #28 
                    - "I'm not making any claims of having been miraculously cured of anything."  Boojatta   Sep-01-08 08:52 AM   #43 
                 - Did the Spanish Inquisition have no employment opportunities for obsessive or compulsive people?  Boojatta   Aug-30-08 06:22 PM   #22 
                    - Arguably, the Inquisition was less about a literalist interpretation of the Bible...  Kutjara   Aug-30-08 08:07 PM   #27 
  - I think that the veneration of the supernatural would be religion even if it were provable.  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-30-08 07:35 PM   #25 
  - I see your point, but I don't think what you describe could be called religion.  Kutjara   Aug-30-08 08:21 PM   #29 
     - I don't think faith is a necessary component of religion;  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-31-08 02:10 AM   #34 
        - I guess we have to disagree there. For me,...  Kutjara   Aug-31-08 02:36 AM   #37 
  - I've always wondered about 2+2=4, though.  knitter4democracy   Aug-30-08 08:57 PM   #30 
     - I think 2+2=4 is on pretty solid ground.  Kutjara   Aug-30-08 10:32 PM   #31 
        - I've never seen those proofs.  knitter4democracy   Aug-30-08 10:57 PM   #32 
           - Such a proof is inherently impossible, as Godel proved with Incompletness.  joshcryer   Sep-01-08 06:45 AM   #40 
              - Not exactly, I think. Godel's theorem is more complicated than most people think it is.  Donald Ian Rankin   Sep-01-08 08:42 AM   #41 
              - I admit my understanding of Incompleteness stems from the book "Godel, Escher, Bach"  joshcryer   Sep-01-08 11:18 PM   #46 
              - I think numbers are more complex/abstract than we admit.  knitter4democracy   Sep-01-08 03:28 PM   #44 
  - Empirical proof  dotcosm   Aug-30-08 04:04 PM   #5 
  - Thats easy enough, I just swap the symbol 4 with 5 and we are done. the symbols are conventions,  thunder rising   Aug-30-08 04:15 PM   #10 
  - Um... I don't think so  dotcosm   Aug-30-08 04:18 PM   #11 
     - The meaning comes from the convention. not the symbols  cyborg_jim   Aug-30-08 05:06 PM   #14 
  - It's in Russell's "Principia Mathematica", and takes hundreds of pages.  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-31-08 02:16 AM   #36 
  - Teaching facts is allwoed  Realityhack   Aug-30-08 04:04 PM   #6 
  - I assume your religion would be borrowing certain semantics from mathematics while dropping others..  thunder rising   Aug-30-08 04:07 PM   #7 
  - Too many here believe separation is the rule/right.  Festivito   Aug-30-08 04:27 PM   #13 
  - I'm inclined to disagree - rights of the child trump rights of the parent.  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-30-08 07:38 PM   #26 
     - You mean the right of the state trumps right of parents.  Festivito   Aug-31-08 12:31 AM   #33 
        - The power of the state should trump the power of the parents.  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-31-08 02:12 AM   #35 
           - Back to your original contention.  Festivito   Aug-31-08 08:35 AM   #38 
  - Correction: by "Second", I of course meant "First"...  Donald Ian Rankin   Aug-30-08 07:33 PM   #23 
  - Godels Incompleness ties in well here.  joshcryer   Sep-01-08 06:43 AM   #39 
  - You can indeed prove that 2+2=4 - assuming reasonable and consistent notation..  Jim__   Sep-01-08 08:50 AM   #42 
     - Yeah but you have to keep creating new axioms.  joshcryer   Sep-01-08 11:17 PM   #45 
        - Creating new axioms?  Jim__   Sep-02-08 07:57 AM   #47 
        - How are you going to formalize Zermelo-Fraenkel?  joshcryer   Sep-03-08 12:54 AM   #51 
           - Zermelo Fraenkel is a basis for set theory.  Jim__   Sep-03-08 02:22 PM   #52 
        - That's not how it works  cyborg_jim   Sep-02-08 03:08 PM   #49 
           - Why not? To formalize that equation in its entirety is impossible.  joshcryer   Sep-03-08 12:49 AM   #50 
              - Formalising that euqation is entirely possible  cyborg_jim   Sep-04-08 05:59 PM   #54 
  - I always liked the qualified equation "2 + 2 = 5...  Kerry4Kerry   Sep-02-08 02:12 PM   #48 

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