Silent3
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Fri Apr-13-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #50 |
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...and this is where the "beyond logic" line really gets to me, is that it's not merely a matter of pretending that "any old answer" is acceptable when a logical, factual path to knowledge is unavailable, but that the stuff people make up (sorry, not "make up", but "discover on their spiritual journey", of course) to fill in the gaps is actually a superior, Deeper Knowledge than that terribly limited, mundane crap that mere facts and logic can get for you.
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| -What exactly is supposed to be "beyond" logic? |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-11-07 11:44 PM |
#0 |
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I agree. |
kiahzero |
Apr-11-07 11:51 PM |
#1 |
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I don's see the logic? |
Kiouni |
Apr-12-07 02:39 AM |
#2 |
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Yeah, its a pretty nonsense reply. |
Evoman |
Apr-12-07 03:15 AM |
#4 |
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Sorry, can't tell you. |
pnwmom |
Apr-12-07 02:52 AM |
#3 |
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Something "special"... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-12-07 12:01 PM |
#6 |
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When someone uses "beyond logic" |
Heaven and Earth |
Apr-12-07 10:48 AM |
#5 |
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Your point A is precisely why children "get" God, and thus Atheists cause such decay in America |
Rabrrrrrr |
Apr-12-07 03:21 PM |
#16 |
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I think they are talking about the limits of logic .... |
kwassa |
Apr-12-07 12:43 PM |
#7 |
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You aren't clear because clarity requires precision |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-12-07 12:50 PM |
#8 |
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but the feeling of knowledge can be knowledge |
kwassa |
Apr-12-07 02:23 PM |
#12 |
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Ah Jeezus, not intution again |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-12-07 02:28 PM |
#13 |
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Don't hold back tell me how you really feel |
kwassa |
Apr-12-07 03:51 PM |
#17 |
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No shit, but other people don't seem to have a problem with it |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-12-07 03:58 PM |
#18 |
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How is feeling something I know knowing something? |
kwassa |
Apr-13-07 08:08 AM |
#28 |
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The problem is a poorly developed epistemology... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-13-07 10:22 AM |
#31 |
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and the value of such epistomolgy is? |
kwassa |
Apr-13-07 12:14 PM |
#34 |
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*Sigh* The point is that without any confirmation IT IS a mere feeling |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-13-07 12:29 PM |
#37 |
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We often never receive confirmation about the most mundane knowledge |
kwassa |
Apr-13-07 02:58 PM |
#46 |
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Missing the point again. |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-13-07 03:11 PM |
#48 |
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What problem? |
kwassa |
Apr-13-07 11:00 PM |
#61 |
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Think about the words "know" and "knowledge" and how they're used... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-13-07 03:52 PM |
#51 |
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I disagree |
kwassa |
Apr-13-07 11:09 PM |
#63 |
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Q: X or Y? / A: I disagree. |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 12:11 PM |
#77 |
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Second order knowledge isn't necessary for first order knowledge. |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 02:48 PM |
#87 |
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I know epistemology can get pretty hairy... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 03:05 PM |
#88 |
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The problem seems to be that either way "knowledge" isn't useful. |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 03:09 PM |
#89 |
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I'm not sure what you mean by "necessary truths". |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 03:27 PM |
#91 |
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Knowledge must be true. |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 04:43 PM |
#95 |
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Mathematics is axiomatic |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-14-07 04:50 PM |
#98 |
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You're merely changing symbols. |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 05:01 PM |
#100 |
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No, really not. |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-14-07 05:30 PM |
#106 |
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Which is again a definitional issue. |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 05:35 PM |
#107 |
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Exactly - mathematics doesn't have to have anything to do with reality |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-14-07 05:55 PM |
#108 |
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I could define "dinosaur" to mean "Nazi." |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 06:01 PM |
#109 |
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It's not a necessary truth of mathematics - it's a necessary truth of *a* mathematics |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-14-07 06:19 PM |
#111 |
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And is thus a necessary truth. |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 06:23 PM |
#112 |
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*Sigh* this is not about semantic games |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-14-07 06:34 PM |
#114 |
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Who said anything about "profound significance?" |
kiahzero |
Apr-15-07 03:17 PM |
#122 |
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Arithmetic is not axiomatic. |
Jim__ |
Apr-16-07 09:23 AM |
#139 |
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2 + 2 = 1... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-17-07 11:43 PM |
#155 |
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See post #100. |
kiahzero |
Apr-18-07 12:22 AM |
#159 |
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While changing arithmetic bases or human languages is simply a trivial... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-18-07 01:23 AM |
#161 |
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Fair enough. (n/t) |
kiahzero |
Apr-18-07 08:05 AM |
#163 |
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That's a terminological issue. |
Jim__ |
Apr-18-07 07:46 AM |
#162 |
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You never can know whether or not... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 05:24 PM |
#103 |
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At that point, you're talking about false knowledge. |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 05:30 PM |
#105 |
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I'd say "provisional" knowledge, not "false" knowledge. |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 06:25 PM |
#113 |
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Wow, thanks that clears it up |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-13-07 10:27 AM |
#33 |
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You see a problem where I see none. |
kwassa |
Apr-13-07 12:16 PM |
#35 |
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You don't think it's a problem that intuition can lead to mututally incompatable 'knowledge'? |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-13-07 12:23 PM |
#36 |
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Of course it can lead to mutually incompatible knowledge |
kwassa |
Apr-13-07 03:08 PM |
#47 |
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We can't do a thing about it |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-13-07 03:20 PM |
#50 |
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What's even worse... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-13-07 04:02 PM |
#52 |
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I am not particularly talking about the "beyond logic" OP |
kwassa |
Apr-13-07 11:19 PM |
#64 |
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You're trying to fix a broken DVD player... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 04:59 PM |
#99 |
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"Paralogical Studies" |
Jokerman |
Apr-12-07 01:36 PM |
#9 |
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Ah but politics IS logical |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-12-07 01:41 PM |
#10 |
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I'm going back to college |
cosmik debris |
Apr-12-07 01:44 PM |
#11 |
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People actually PAYING to vote on American Idol? |
Rabrrrrrr |
Apr-12-07 02:51 PM |
#14 |
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They get a sense of value from participation. |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-12-07 02:57 PM |
#15 |
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All manner of matters are beyond mere logic. |
struggle4progress |
Apr-12-07 06:00 PM |
#19 |
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Reply (lack of imagination) |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-12-07 06:42 PM |
#20 |
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Your comments really miss the point. |
struggle4progress |
Apr-12-07 08:32 PM |
#23 |
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Erm no shit |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-12-07 11:24 PM |
#27 |
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You apparently don't realize that "polynomial time" really doesn't mean "feasible" |
struggle4progress |
Apr-13-07 02:42 PM |
#45 |
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Okay, I'm going to capitulate on that point because it really doesn't affect the main thrust |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-13-07 03:13 PM |
#49 |
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I'd just like to reply to one thing here. |
kiahzero |
Apr-12-07 11:22 PM |
#26 |
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RIght, I'm familiar with that |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-13-07 08:55 AM |
#29 |
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Let me unpack this for you in more detail: |
struggle4progress |
Apr-13-07 09:54 AM |
#30 |
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Right... |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-13-07 10:22 AM |
#32 |
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Strike three: here it is (A + S) that is contradictory, not necessarily A; hence it DOES depend on S |
struggle4progress |
Apr-13-07 01:02 PM |
#39 |
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No |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-13-07 01:38 PM |
#41 |
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The point is that logic is a collection of linguistic conventions that mirror ... |
struggle4progress |
Apr-13-07 04:18 PM |
#53 |
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Could you explain something for me? |
kiahzero |
Apr-13-07 07:58 PM |
#56 |
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In simple concrete cases, I expect the statements are equivalent. |
struggle4progress |
Apr-13-07 09:50 PM |
#57 |
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What "not ((for all x) not P(x))" means |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 12:08 AM |
#71 |
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OK, you want to propose a simple operational meaning. |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 01:04 PM |
#79 |
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Not true. |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 01:34 PM |
#81 |
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Actually, what I am arguing is that there are entirely different notions .. |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 02:03 PM |
#83 |
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OK, then I'm completely failing to see what you're saying. |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 02:10 PM |
#84 |
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Here, I think, is the real difficulty: I am adopting a rather restrictive ... |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 03:25 PM |
#90 |
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This seems to be mere semantic wordplay. |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 04:50 PM |
#97 |
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My objection to the definition is exactly that the standard definition is mere wordplay: |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 05:17 PM |
#102 |
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Yes, but only in extremely rare cases. |
kiahzero |
Apr-14-07 05:28 PM |
#104 |
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I don't know why you say "rare." There are plenty of existence arguments |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 06:44 PM |
#115 |
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I thought you were talking about "real" things? |
kiahzero |
Apr-15-07 01:18 PM |
#120 |
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I want a logic which gives sensible and useful results and which is in some sense "realistic." |
struggle4progress |
Apr-15-07 04:18 PM |
#124 |
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Metaphysics for the win. |
kiahzero |
Apr-15-07 04:28 PM |
#125 |
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Giving old things new names for the win? |
struggle4progress |
Apr-15-07 07:01 PM |
#128 |
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You don't need to show an example if you can show that something MUST exist |
kiahzero |
Apr-15-07 07:53 PM |
#129 |
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We'll just have to disagree about this. It seems clear enough to me |
struggle4progress |
Apr-15-07 10:57 PM |
#130 |
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The same problem exists in any sort of proof. |
kiahzero |
Apr-15-07 11:15 PM |
#131 |
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"Proof" means different things to different people. |
struggle4progress |
Apr-15-07 11:21 PM |
#133 |
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True enough. |
kiahzero |
Apr-15-07 11:24 PM |
#134 |
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If such objections interest you, look up "intuitionistic logic" or "constructivist logic" |
struggle4progress |
Apr-15-07 11:48 PM |
#135 |
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From the little I've just read, they seem profoundly silly. |
kiahzero |
Apr-16-07 12:02 AM |
#136 |
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Then I will probably be unlikely to persuade you otherwise |
struggle4progress |
Apr-16-07 12:14 AM |
#137 |
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Well, you could explain what it would mean for something to be true and false. |
kiahzero |
Apr-16-07 12:21 AM |
#138 |
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Two different ideas are sometimes called "excluded middle." You fail to distinguish |
struggle4progress |
Apr-16-07 11:52 AM |
#140 |
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Your true statement isn't meaningless garbage. |
kiahzero |
Apr-16-07 10:29 PM |
#142 |
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If you are unwilling to insist that logic have a concrete operational meaning then |
struggle4progress |
Apr-17-07 02:16 PM |
#144 |
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I was discussing the only way an implication can be falsified. |
kiahzero |
Apr-17-07 05:40 PM |
#147 |
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I'm not sure to what purpose you wish to discuss "the only way for (stmt) could be false" |
struggle4progress |
Apr-17-07 09:11 PM |
#149 |
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(p -> q) where P is true and Q is false is necessarily false. |
kiahzero |
Apr-17-07 10:59 PM |
#152 |
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The conventional logic collapses a number of distinct ideas |
struggle4progress |
Apr-17-07 11:55 PM |
#156 |
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Is there any sort of example of classical logic breaking? |
kiahzero |
Apr-18-07 12:14 AM |
#157 |
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I don't know how to say much more on such matters than I've already said. |
struggle4progress |
Apr-18-07 11:18 AM |
#165 |
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Has anyone ever mediated over a crystal... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-13-07 10:30 PM |
#59 |
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Your silly response has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I said: |
struggle4progress |
Apr-13-07 11:06 PM |
#62 |
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My response had little to do with what you said... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-13-07 11:23 PM |
#65 |
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So if Ramanujan had attempted to meditate over a crystal |
struggle4progress |
Apr-13-07 11:38 PM |
#68 |
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I'd certainly rather that Ramanujan had given himself... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-13-07 11:55 PM |
#70 |
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But obviously we need to decide if axiom A is reasonable. |
WakingLife |
Apr-13-07 01:50 PM |
#42 |
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I think he's trying to say that because you can prove anything with logic then that determination |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-13-07 01:55 PM |
#43 |
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Yeah. That's what I thought he was saying too. |
WakingLife |
Apr-13-07 02:06 PM |
#44 |
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Well, those are very nice sounding words but ... |
struggle4progress |
Apr-13-07 06:40 PM |
#54 |
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(response moved to connect to correct parent) n/t |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 01:01 AM |
#74 |
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It is put up or shut up time s4p. |
WakingLife |
Apr-14-07 10:36 AM |
#76 |
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We are in a subthread discussing the question of how to proceed |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 01:39 PM |
#82 |
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You could just as easily say... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-12-07 10:12 PM |
#25 |
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From a pragmatic and materialistic perspective, we can say that a technique applies to ... |
struggle4progress |
Apr-13-07 12:58 PM |
#38 |
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Metalogic |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-13-07 01:22 PM |
#40 |
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The old straw men of absolute knowledge and absolute certainty |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-13-07 07:48 PM |
#55 |
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If you want to ask whether there is anything "beyond logic," |
struggle4progress |
Apr-13-07 10:07 PM |
#58 |
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Why do you keep beating a dead horse that I deliberately shot down it my opening post? |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-13-07 10:52 PM |
#60 |
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How do YOU know those things are within their own heads??? |
kwassa |
Apr-13-07 11:23 PM |
#66 |
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If you're happy with the meager world of... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 12:19 AM |
#73 |
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If you accept that logic has limits, then the question |
struggle4progress |
Apr-13-07 11:28 PM |
#67 |
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The difference is... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-13-07 11:39 PM |
#69 |
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That won't do. I'll revert to an example I gave before: consider the assertion |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 12:09 AM |
#72 |
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I'm not sure why you find the premise of this thread so hard to grasp. |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 01:08 AM |
#75 |
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At this point, your rhetorical technique is clear, and it suggests your purposes. |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 01:00 PM |
#78 |
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You miss the point: |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-14-07 01:11 PM |
#80 |
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As far as I can tell, it is your view that logic and computation |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 02:41 PM |
#86 |
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Not quite |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-14-07 03:27 PM |
#92 |
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That's dishonest: I never asked for "a complete moral framework covering all possibilities" |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 04:38 PM |
#94 |
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Which, again, I'm going to have to ask you what that is. |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-14-07 04:48 PM |
#96 |
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It's not simply that I am told "there are matters beyond the reach of logic"... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 02:18 PM |
#85 |
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.... |
Heaven and Earth |
Apr-14-07 03:33 PM |
#93 |
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I can't see that the extended analogy clarifies much. Nowhere in the |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 05:09 PM |
#101 |
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There was no attempt to "attribut(e to you) beliefs (you) do not have"... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 06:05 PM |
#110 |
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Hmmm. You claim to believe in using logic as a tool but apparently |
struggle4progress |
Apr-14-07 07:19 PM |
#116 |
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If only you were using logic "against" me... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-14-07 11:17 PM |
#117 |
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Okie dokie: |
struggle4progress |
Apr-15-07 12:22 AM |
#118 |
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UGH. |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-15-07 09:11 AM |
#119 |
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Fascinating |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-15-07 03:34 PM |
#123 |
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I suspect your difficulty stems largely from your inability to tolerate disagreement. |
struggle4progress |
Apr-15-07 05:45 PM |
#126 |
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What "grandiose claims" have I made? |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-15-07 06:59 PM |
#127 |
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So we cannot even agree regarding the nature of our disagreement. |
struggle4progress |
Apr-15-07 11:17 PM |
#132 |
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Perhaps we can agree... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-16-07 08:22 PM |
#141 |
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If your intent is intellectually honest, you should be able to clarify certain points. |
struggle4progress |
Apr-17-07 02:55 PM |
#145 |
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UGH |
cyborg_jim |
Apr-17-07 03:08 PM |
#146 |
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But if he stops fretting and fussing... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-17-07 11:09 PM |
#153 |
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Okay, so what I am saying there is simply this: |
struggle4progress |
Apr-18-07 12:17 AM |
#158 |
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How can I be clear about the form answers take which don't make sense to me? |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-18-07 01:08 AM |
#160 |
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Bush's foreign policy. |
rug |
Apr-12-07 07:21 PM |
#21 |
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. |
GreenJ |
Apr-12-07 07:45 PM |
#22 |
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It's how the Religionistas and New Agers protect thier nonsense from being falsifiable. |
Odin2005 |
Apr-12-07 10:03 PM |
#24 |
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A refrain here and elsewhere in theological discussions is |
varkam |
Apr-15-07 01:49 PM |
#121 |
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Logic is a gift |
MistressOverdone |
Apr-17-07 08:22 AM |
#143 |
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"Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't." Indeed. But here's the problem: |
Zhade |
Apr-17-07 08:42 PM |
#148 |
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The epitaph of the supernatural: "Wishful thinking doesn't make it true." |
Heaven and Earth |
Apr-17-07 09:14 PM |
#150 |
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Is it wrong to say I love you more each day? |
Zhade |
Apr-17-07 10:12 PM |
#151 |
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I couldn't agree more, Zhade |
MistressOverdone |
Apr-18-07 08:20 AM |
#164 |
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I'm a Trek fan, but the ST idea of what it means to be "logical"... |
Kerry4Kerry |
Apr-17-07 11:31 PM |
#154 |
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"Beyond logic" is a loaded phrase used to insulate religion from criticism. |
WritingIsMyReligion |
Apr-19-07 09:08 PM |
#166 |
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