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Reply #8: Could go either way. [View All]

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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
8. Could go either way.
Lemon test (Lemon v. Kurtzman):

1. The government's action must have a legitimate secular purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive entanglement" with religion.

3 isn't violated here. Since the display has served secular purposes in the past 1 is probably not violated either. 2 however is why it could go either way. If it is a display of a religious nature then it will have to be removed. If it is more about the many secular aspects of Christmas then it can stay.

Personally I wouldn't care either way even if 2 is violated for a short period of time. However, if it is brought to a court , and 2 is violated the court must and should rule it to be removed.

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  -Religion in the Public Square bryant69  Dec-20-06 01:38 PM   #0 
  - What if it was a Univeraslist church?  Kerrytravelers   Dec-20-06 01:45 PM   #1 
  - It depends. How are applicants selected?  eallen   Dec-20-06 01:52 PM   #2 
  - Depends on if the display was religious in nature  ayeshahaqqiqa   Dec-20-06 02:00 PM   #3 
  - But not just a generic christmas display?  bryant69   Dec-20-06 02:07 PM   #5 
     - Depends on what you mean by "generic"  ayeshahaqqiqa   Dec-20-06 02:15 PM   #6 
        - A christmas tree with a little card saying "First Baptist"  bryant69   Dec-20-06 02:20 PM   #7 
  - You said it was a townhall window box  Lowell   Dec-20-06 02:06 PM   #4 
  - Could go either way.  WakingLife   Dec-20-06 02:53 PM   #8 
  - As for two it would depend on what the constitutes the  bryant69   Dec-20-06 03:17 PM   #10 
     - No we don't.  WakingLife   Dec-20-06 05:16 PM   #15 
     - Ah - the "I'm right, you're wrong" card. Well played.  bryant69   Dec-20-06 05:57 PM   #18 
        - It's just that I can't believe you honestly think that  WakingLife   Dec-21-06 06:47 AM   #23 
           - Everytime I have this discussion  bryant69   Dec-21-06 08:07 AM   #26 
              - I guess that's why the court rejected it too right?  WakingLife   Dec-21-06 08:50 AM   #28 
                 - You should keep in mind rule 3  bryant69   Dec-21-06 08:54 AM   #29 
     - Cases like this happen all the time  Az   Dec-20-06 06:06 PM   #19 
        - That's my understanding of how it works as well  bryant69   Dec-20-06 06:09 PM   #20 
  - You can't keep the church out.  Sam1   Dec-20-06 03:10 PM   #9 
  - Then you can't keep out the Wiccans either  cosmik debris   Dec-20-06 03:25 PM   #12 
  - Some are already howling, it's already fun to watch  charlie   Dec-20-06 04:00 PM   #14 
  - That is absolutely correct. And that is the way it should be.  Sam1   Dec-20-06 09:20 PM   #21 
  - You forgot to read the whole ammendment!  WakingLife   Dec-20-06 05:17 PM   #16 
     - don't need to - the window box is a public forum and therefor  Sam1   Dec-20-06 09:35 PM   #22 
        - Tell it to the judge.  WakingLife   Dec-21-06 06:51 AM   #24 
           - This has been told to the judge - It is  Sam1   Dec-21-06 07:38 AM   #25 
  - It completely depends on one factor: is the government involved in any way?  Zhade   Dec-20-06 03:23 PM   #11 
  - Hmmmmmmm  bryant69   Dec-20-06 03:42 PM   #13 
  - It depends on whether any and all groups can apply  Az   Dec-20-06 05:19 PM   #17 
  - What if so many groups apply that some have to be turned down?  trotsky   Dec-21-06 08:24 AM   #27 
     - That is a very real problem  Az   Dec-21-06 09:13 AM   #30 
     - Random drawing solves the problem very easily.  Sam1   Dec-21-06 11:27 AM   #31 
        - Ha! Yeah, right.  trotsky   Dec-21-06 12:29 PM   #32 
           - Because like any other group religious groups are protected  Sam1   Dec-21-06 02:25 PM   #33 
              - Religious groups are unique.  trotsky   Dec-21-06 02:30 PM   #34 
                 - So? That matters under other fact patterns but not this set.  Sam1   Dec-21-06 02:36 PM   #35 
                    - It matters quite a bit, actually.  trotsky   Dec-21-06 02:39 PM   #36 
                       - This is a free speech issue. The town government has  Sam1   Dec-21-06 04:44 PM   #37 
                          - Think of it as a public notice board  Az   Dec-21-06 05:44 PM   #39 
                          - agreed. However it is more then a public notice board as  Sam1   Dec-21-06 06:19 PM   #40 
                          - Yep  Az   Dec-21-06 06:22 PM   #42 
                             - To Bad. But so true.  Sam1   Dec-21-06 07:05 PM   #43 
                          - Christians are not the only who can become insensed.  Sam1   Dec-21-06 06:21 PM   #41 
                             - True but its typically for different reasons  Az   Dec-21-06 10:32 PM   #47 
                                - I do not think that this atitude is  Sam1   Dec-22-06 09:36 AM   #50 
                          - Public forum? Puh-lease.  trotsky   Dec-21-06 07:16 PM   #44 
                             - The government can't denigrate religion. If it is going to provide  Sam1   Dec-21-06 09:28 PM   #45 
                                - Denigrate?  trotsky   Dec-21-06 10:18 PM   #46 
                                   - Definition two fits your position very well.  Sam1   Dec-22-06 09:29 AM   #48 
                                      - Sorry, I don't agree.  trotsky   Dec-22-06 09:35 AM   #49 
                                         - There is more to the first amendment then the religion clauses.  Sam1   Dec-22-06 09:54 AM   #51 
                                            - Think about this for a moment.  trotsky   Dec-22-06 10:00 AM   #53 
                                               - This is a different issue.  Sam1   Dec-23-06 01:56 PM   #55 
                                                  - That's too bad.  trotsky   Dec-24-06 02:39 PM   #58 
                                                     - This is a freedom of speech issue. Having offered the space to  Sam1   Dec-25-06 08:21 AM   #61 
                                                     - If the "Good News Clubs" were relevant here, you'd have a great point.  trotsky   Dec-25-06 08:18 PM   #62 
                                                     - Good News Club is relevant to the discussion.  Sam1   Dec-25-06 10:24 PM   #63 
                                                     - Nope, Good News Club not the same.  trotsky   Dec-26-06 11:12 AM   #65 
  - Depends.  Crunchy Frog   Dec-21-06 05:30 PM   #38 
  - What about the KKK or the white supremacists....should they be allowed to put stuff in the public  Evoman   Dec-22-06 09:58 AM   #52 
  - Right - there is nothing like getting down on their level.  Sam1   Dec-23-06 10:19 PM   #56 
  - Interesting that you should mention the KKK  ayeshahaqqiqa   Dec-24-06 04:42 PM   #59 
     - Good for the Board of Supervisors  Sam1   Dec-25-06 10:27 PM   #64 
  - Memory of a failed experiment in the public square  Az   Dec-22-06 02:04 PM   #54 
  - Why am I not surprised?  BuffyTheFundieSlayer   Dec-24-06 11:56 AM   #57 
  - So its a one-sided display??  and-justice-for-all   Dec-25-06 05:47 AM   #60 

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