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Reply #45: I think your actual posts have been sloppy [View All]

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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. I think your actual posts have been sloppy
When you change the terms of discussion from post to post, that is sloppy. Trying to figure out what a 1% audit can and can't do is a very different enterprise than defending the assertion that it is "useless." I don't know if you're actually defending that assertion, because you are changing the terms of discussion so that it is very hard to tell what you are saying.

Yes, I think in the CA example "we might be ok for state-wide..." is not a bad summary of that part (brief, of course) -- the manual tally isn't well designed for the purpose of correcting wrong outcomes, but if someone is wondering, say, if Prop 8 was straight, it gives a lot of information. And, yes, it's not very convincing for smaller contests. The ability to get partial recounts of a few precincts/batches (without paying for all the absentee ballots to be hand-sorted, for instance) would help a lot in getting a handle on how much error there might be in any one batch. (Unfortunately, short of laying out a Bayesian framework, there's no good way to quantify how useful it is.)

A 3% audit in New York ought to be about as useful as a 1% audit in California -- more or less, depending on the details of what gets audited. It's more like a smoke alarm than an actual risk-limiting audit -- as we've discussed, escalation on the county level doesn't make sense -- but as a smoke alarm it could be pretty good if done well. A 5% partial recount in Ohio is kind of similar, but only applies to one contest. If Florida picked a contest and audited it statewide, 1% would be kind of similar too. Connecticut's 10% audit isn't as good because it's 10% of a much smaller number.
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  -Audits in Primary Elections? garybeck  Aug-05-10 07:27 PM   #0 
  - How many states have mandatory audits? And what are they? 1%?  Stevepol   Aug-05-10 08:19 PM   #1 
  - that doesn't answer my question but...  garybeck   Aug-05-10 08:43 PM   #2 
     - Caveat Emptor  Wilms   Aug-05-10 10:25 PM   #3 
     - I agree with what you're saying but that doesn't answer my question  garybeck   Aug-06-10 12:25 AM   #4 
     - I don't think that's "PERIOD" at all  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-06-10 07:57 AM   #8 
        - You say 1% is huge in CA, without suggesting a reported margin.  Wilms   Aug-06-10 11:08 AM   #10 
           - jeepers  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-06-10 11:41 AM   #11 
              - Lots of problems with audits though. (And I don't get paid to deal with them either!)  Bill Bored   Aug-06-10 12:51 PM   #14 
              - yeah, county-by-county escalation makes little sense  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-07-10 10:02 AM   #23 
                 - *cough*  Wilms   Aug-07-10 10:38 AM   #25 
              - Don't take it personnel.  Wilms   Aug-06-10 01:05 PM   #16 
                 - hang on, which state?  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-06-10 08:38 PM   #20 
                    - What do we call medical treatments with low probability of helping?  Wilms   Aug-06-10 09:22 PM   #21 
                       - hmmmm  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-07-10 08:12 AM   #22 
                          - Seems like you're overemphasizing that an audit with low confidence could still reveal a problem.  Wilms   Aug-07-10 10:37 AM   #24 
                          - I'm hardly making that point at all  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-07-10 07:40 PM   #27 
                             - OK, then. Can you name any races with a 2% margin where an audit achieved >90% confidence?  Wilms   Aug-07-10 07:53 PM   #29 
                                - How 'bout a 2% margin in a US House, State Senate or State House (or Assembly) race?  Bill Bored   Aug-07-10 11:24 PM   #30 
                                   - Yep. If guess if we exclude President, US Senate, and Governor, it's really game over. n/t  Wilms   Aug-08-10 02:01 AM   #31 
                                      - Well there is the argument that if errors happened on EVERY machine, ANY audit would find some.  Bill Bored   Aug-08-10 03:06 AM   #34 
                          - NY's audit has already been gutted. The SBOE's version was dumb but the election law's is dumber!  Bill Bored   Aug-07-10 01:37 PM   #26 
                             - as long as we're waxing metaphorical  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-07-10 07:42 PM   #28 
                                - Being a bit harsh?  Wilms   Aug-08-10 02:24 AM   #32 
                                - Well if that's the best you can come up with...  Bill Bored   Aug-08-10 03:00 AM   #33 
     - AFAIK the best resource for this kind of question  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-06-10 07:32 AM   #7 
  - NY does. That's close enough to VT. nt  Bill Bored   Aug-06-10 01:17 AM   #5 
  - But do you know, generally, if primaries are included, or not? n/t  Wilms   Aug-06-10 02:51 AM   #6 
  - No, I don't. Some states definitely include them. NY, NC, maybe others. nt  Bill Bored   Aug-06-10 12:38 PM   #13 
  - do you know if they audit their primary elections? n/t  garybeck   Aug-06-10 10:27 AM   #9 
     - YES, as I said, NY audits primary elections. I'm not sure what the other states do. nt  Bill Bored   Aug-06-10 12:35 PM   #12 
     - Here's the NY audit law:  Bill Bored   Aug-06-10 01:01 PM   #15 
        - thanks very much!!!! n/t  garybeck   Aug-06-10 01:42 PM   #17 
           - You're welcome. You might also look at what CT does.  Bill Bored   Aug-06-10 01:53 PM   #18 
              - Thank Bill.  Wilms   Aug-06-10 02:25 PM   #19 
  - Kicking for audits with high confidence levels. Anyone got one? n/t  Wilms   Aug-14-10 02:05 PM   #35 
  - I've seen some where they audited up to about 75% of the vote to get to about 75% "confidence."  Bill Bored   Aug-15-10 12:53 AM   #36 
     - Well, I kind of figured that was the case, and the reason OTOH didn't respond.  Wilms   Aug-15-10 01:18 AM   #37 
        - you were?  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-15-10 01:59 PM   #38 
           - You're having a real tough time with this. Aren't you?  Wilms   Aug-15-10 02:47 PM   #39 
              - there go the goalposts again  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-16-10 11:03 AM   #40 
                 - How about running the same numbers for VT since that's what this thread was supposed to be about? nt  Bill Bored   Aug-16-10 08:13 PM   #41 
                 - Don't waste his time unless it's a real audit in VT.  Wilms   Aug-17-10 12:02 AM   #43 
                 - not even  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-17-10 08:31 AM   #44 
                    - Inconvenient truths prevent a direct reply?  Wilms   Aug-17-10 10:10 AM   #47 
                       - yadda yadda yadda  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-17-10 06:21 PM   #48 
                          - You didn't answer a single question. Pathetic.  Wilms   Aug-17-10 06:47 PM   #49 
                 - Wanting to know the confidence level of various elections isn't moving the "goal post".  Wilms   Aug-16-10 11:59 PM   #42 
                    - I think your actual posts have been sloppy  OnTheOtherHand   Aug-17-10 08:59 AM   #45 
                       - In other words, none of these audits provide high confidence levels. Correct?  Wilms   Aug-17-10 10:07 AM   #46 
                       - Ohio didn't provide for a proper escalation procedure, so it's no exception. nt  Bill Bored   Aug-17-10 10:43 PM   #51 
                          - Does NJ's audit law provide for escalation?  Wilms   Aug-20-10 04:33 AM   #53 
                             - By law, NJ's audit must meet certain requirements that would require escalation:  Bill Bored   Aug-20-10 12:04 PM   #54 
                                - OK. That's how it looked to me.  Wilms   Aug-23-10 02:03 AM   #55 
                                   - NJ's audit is the only one with a large chance of finding and correcting serious miscounts in all  Bill Bored   Aug-23-10 07:10 PM   #56 
                                      - Thanks Bill.  Wilms   Aug-31-10 11:08 PM   #57 
                       - So how 'bout Vermont then, since it's garybeck's thread?  Bill Bored   Aug-17-10 10:18 PM   #50 
                       - Of course Florida does not "pick a contest and audit it statewide." nt  Bill Bored   Aug-17-10 10:48 PM   #52 
  - OK. Jersey (and did someone say NC?) have statistical audits.  Wilms   Nov-01-10 09:12 AM   #58 
     - New Mexico. But don't count Jersey because they don't have paper ballots. nt  Bill Bored   Nov-01-10 07:25 PM   #59 

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