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Reply #39: I think I said vote switching DURING an election is impossible on levers. [View All]

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-07-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I think I said vote switching DURING an election is impossible on levers.
Edited on Tue Apr-07-09 01:52 PM by Bill Bored
If not, that's what I meant. You're not going to say it's impossible with software I hope!

With levers then, pre- and post- election procedures handle the rest. And they are VERY SIMPLE and do NOT rely on statistics, flawed software certification processes, or I.T. security that most people have no idea how to implement. The fraud is contained if the lever machines are tested and inspected and the totals are copied immediately after the election. This is how it works in NY. It's only when SOFTWARE enters the mix that things can go horribly wrong.

And you have proved it with Chautauqua, thank you very much! Software was used to fix those results, although there may have been an easily explained lever glitch because someone didn't follow a procedure. That gave a candidate a clearly impossible number of votes, which had NO effect on the electoral outcome, but should NOT have been certified.

But the software error (or fraud) raised the perceived undervote rate for the entire county by 300%!

As to lever hacks, accounts of what may be possible, that do not take into account FEASIBLE procedures that may be used to prevent it, do not impress me and they should not impress you either. I'm NOT convinced, that what we need to do to keep scanners and paper ballots safe, is at all FEASIBLE -- and it's not yet even on the table in NY. It's unconscionable to be advocating for lever replacement until those laws and regulations are on the books and we have a reasonable expectation that the counties CAN AND WILL comply.

The point about CA-4 is that there was an audit and no one seems to know what the results are or why there wasn't a full recount in an election with such a narrow margin, even though statisticians said that with Bowen's "emergency" regs, a full recount was imminent. So where is it? And does anyone actually know how to read those regs in the first place?

Finally, in NY, you cannot correct precinct scanner errors after the election, if the courts say the ballots have NOT been proven to have been "preserved inviolate." In the State of NY, there is a legal PRESUMPTION that they have NOT been so preserved, and before you can recount post-election, that presumption has to be disproved to a court (except for absentee and emergency ballots).

I'm sorry but you don't know the case law on this in NY and because of that, I think you are putting too much blind faith in the whole post-election audit/recount paradigm here. You are also allowing your frustration with the Exit-Poll True Believers (EPTBs) to cloud your judgment about Novick's expertise in other areas where she is probably more qualified than most of the attorneys in the State at this point, because unlike them, she has done the legal research. That's NOT just reading the Election Law that's currently on the books, even though there are MAJOR contradictions therein as a result of ERMA. The fact that she might draw incorrect conclusions about the meaning of an exit poll is utterly irrelevant!

You don't like it when the EPTBs tell you that you don't know how to read polls, do you? So try not to suggest that Novick doesn't know how to read law. That's all I'm saying.

Oh, and on edit: I forgot to mention that HAVA does NOT ban lever machines.
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  -2009 Holt Bill. E-Voting: Making a Bad System Worse Wilms  Mar-29-09 02:24 PM   #0 
  - K&R...nt  kster   Mar-29-09 02:44 PM   #1 
  - I see Nancy's losing her touch  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-10-09 06:26 PM   #64 
  - I don't know why progress has to be "incremental." What the fuck is this matter with  Peace Patriot   Mar-29-09 03:02 PM   #2 
  - I could not care less how many voting systems have a paper trail  gristy   Mar-29-09 03:07 PM   #3 
  - I meant "no paper trail at all." I chose the phrase carefully. It includes paper ballots  Peace Patriot   Mar-29-09 03:45 PM   #4 
  - Because if you go for "all or nothing" you will get NOTHING.  Yellow Horse   Mar-30-09 05:45 AM   #9 
     - 100% HCPB ain't going to happen.  Wilms   Mar-30-09 10:05 AM   #13 
  - Here come the NYers! (See this comment by a REAL Democrat!)  Bill Bored   Mar-29-09 04:46 PM   #5 
  - K&R!!  Stevepol   Mar-29-09 05:09 PM   #6 
  - K&R we ALREADY HAVE our rights, the govt is violating them, it's their JOB to guarantee them nt  Land Shark   Mar-29-09 10:23 PM   #7 
  - We've all heard this crap before and I for one am sick of it.  Yellow Horse   Mar-30-09 05:33 AM   #8 
  - The rhetoric can be nauseating, I agree.  Wilms   Mar-30-09 09:58 AM   #12 
  - Wilms, the Pennsylvania House of Representatives was decided in 2006 on PAPER BALLOTS.  demodonkey   Mar-30-09 06:38 PM   #16 
     - Glad the recount happened in that particular case.  Wilms   Mar-30-09 09:48 PM   #18 
        - The recount was requested by the losing candidate, as I recall.  demodonkey   Apr-01-09 09:01 PM   #19 
           - Looks like it was a count or re-count of absentee and provisionals.  Wilms   Apr-02-09 05:49 AM   #20 
           - If there were voter intent issues with the paper ballots, I think lever machines  Bill Bored   Apr-03-09 11:05 PM   #21 
              - Well if history follows the pattern we will get a GOP Gov in 2010  demodonkey   Apr-05-09 06:49 AM   #28 
  - "Real reform?" that's pretty funny....if you're referring to Holt's bill...  Land Shark   Mar-30-09 12:02 PM   #15 
     - You prefer the "dreary future" of paperless DREs for millions of voters if this bill doesn't pass??  Yellow Horse   Mar-30-09 07:03 PM   #17 
        - I've been a major factor in getting rid of paperless DREs in my county at the time  Land Shark   Apr-05-09 02:07 PM   #33 
  - OK, on these two arguments  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-30-09 07:22 AM   #10 
  - ...paper ballots have been used to correct election outcomes, and that will continue...  Wilms   Mar-30-09 09:48 AM   #11 
  - did I say that paper ballots are ALWAYS used to correct election outcomes?  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-30-09 10:35 AM   #14 
     - We DO know the Holt bill is HEADED toward 100% hand counts, only statistics are used to limit work  Land Shark   Apr-05-09 02:10 PM   #35 
        - sorry I missed this  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-10-09 04:59 AM   #59 
  - OK, let's compare!  Bill Bored   Apr-04-09 12:58 AM   #22 
     - you know about the local election  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-04-09 01:16 AM   #23 
        - Local elections can only be confirmed with full hand counts.  Bill Bored   Apr-04-09 03:53 AM   #24 
        - I'm surprised this "lever" discussion is still going nowhere after a week.  Wilms   Apr-05-09 02:24 AM   #26 
           - where can it go?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-05-09 08:23 AM   #30 
              - "...a paper audit trail that actually gets audited?" Yeah that. nt  Bill Bored   Apr-05-09 01:06 PM   #32 
              - I'm not not interested? Pardon?  Wilms   Apr-05-09 02:09 PM   #34 
                 - maybe I'm misreading the posts, then  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-06-09 08:07 AM   #36 
                    - Slow down.  Bill Bored   Apr-06-09 05:41 PM   #37 
                       - mmm  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-07-09 12:28 PM   #38 
                          - I think I said vote switching DURING an election is impossible on levers.  Bill Bored   Apr-07-09 01:40 PM   #39 
                          - mmmmm  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-07-09 02:17 PM   #40 
                             - Couple of points:  Bill Bored   Apr-08-09 12:03 AM   #41 
                                - mmmmmmm  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-08-09 08:03 AM   #44 
                                   - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  Bill Bored   Apr-08-09 01:12 PM   #46 
                                      - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  Wilms   Apr-08-09 09:26 PM   #50 
                                      - You win only because long subject lines have to separated with spaces. nt  Bill Bored   Apr-10-09 05:47 PM   #63 
                                      - well, you don't know that  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-09-09 07:37 AM   #52 
                                         - Hmmm. Exit Polls. Andi Novick.  Wilms   Apr-09-09 08:33 AM   #54 
                                            - Wilms, why are you blowing smoke about this?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-09-09 03:37 PM   #55 
                                               - Me?  Wilms   Apr-09-09 09:03 PM   #56 
                                               - sure  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-10-09 04:52 AM   #58 
                                               - And your doubt about Novick's legal strategy has been noted, repeatedly.  Wilms   Apr-10-09 10:03 AM   #60 
                                               - huh?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-10-09 01:57 PM   #62 
                                               - It's not the state board. It's ERMA.  Wilms   Apr-10-09 10:34 PM   #65 
                                               - how is that a way to keep the levers?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 05:48 AM   #72 
                                               - That's not how some see it.  Wilms   Apr-14-09 09:21 AM   #74 
                                               - nu?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 11:31 AM   #75 
                                               - How many more times do you want to go around this issue?  Wilms   Apr-14-09 12:06 PM   #78 
                                               - so, your view is that the federal case is closed?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 12:24 PM   #79 
                                               - That's a bit rude.  Wilms   Apr-14-09 12:40 PM   #80 
                                               - I'm a bit frustrated  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 01:10 PM   #81 
                                               - How many more times to you want to go around that same point?  Wilms   Apr-14-09 01:46 PM   #82 
                                               - you're only responsible for the weakness of your argument  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 01:49 PM   #83 
                                               - And I already told you there is the issue with the money NY took. n/t  Wilms   Apr-14-09 02:12 PM   #84 
                                               - what part of "Section 301" do you find ambiguous?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 02:35 PM   #85 
                                               - What part of I went over this with you last summer don't you get?  Wilms   Apr-14-09 02:41 PM   #86 
                                               - you linked to nothing in particular  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 02:48 PM   #87 
                                               - links  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-13-09 01:28 PM   #68 
                                               - Nice work.  Wilms   Apr-14-09 09:11 AM   #73 
                                               - CORRECTION! Hockley-Delgado's margin was 47 votes -- not 67 votes. (Pretty close race.) nt  Bill Bored   Apr-14-09 11:58 AM   #76 
                                               - lessee  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 12:02 PM   #77 
                                               - Wilms isn't -blowing- smoke  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-10-09 12:31 PM   #61 
                          - Now I get it. In fact, you'd trust your vote in an inadequately audited computer tabulated election.  Wilms   Apr-08-09 12:05 AM   #42 
                             - I sometimes wonder  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-08-09 07:33 AM   #43 
                                - Obviously there's no perfect system.  Wilms   Apr-08-09 10:30 AM   #45 
                                   - grunt  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-08-09 01:18 PM   #47 
                                      - When was the last time a scanner jockey mentioned anything about a scanner failure?  Bill Bored   Apr-08-09 08:58 PM   #48 
                                      - BB, Im not trying to take your levers, but a fact or two here please  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-10-09 11:47 PM   #66 
                                         - I spend about as much time on federal E.I. legislation as Bush spent on Bin Laden!  Bill Bored   Apr-11-09 02:26 AM   #67 
                                            - maybe you should take the time to get to know your own US senators  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-15-09 11:31 PM   #88 
                                      - Don't worry. Be happy.  Wilms   Apr-08-09 09:24 PM   #49 
                                         - that's incorrect  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-09-09 07:27 AM   #51 
                                            - I am mistaken. You did mention a problem attributed to a jam.  Wilms   Apr-09-09 08:17 AM   #53 
  - This is misleading.  garybeck   Apr-04-09 11:24 PM   #25 
  - Holt's 3/5/10% audit will not give a high statistical confidence in close elections.  Wilms   Apr-05-09 06:33 AM   #27 
     - Andy wanted voter-verified paper ballots with meaningful audits, but he was also a realist...  demodonkey   Apr-05-09 06:53 AM   #29 
     - Andy wasn't alone in getting your "state's plight" wrong.  Wilms   Apr-05-09 08:47 AM   #31 
        - Enough of this. I grow tired of being called a liar, and doing so is beneath you Wilms.  demodonkey   Apr-13-09 03:52 PM   #69 
           - No.I didn't call you a liar.  Wilms   Apr-13-09 09:01 PM   #70 
           - NY state is making no arguments for levers; the people of NY State are.  Bill Bored   Apr-14-09 04:25 AM   #71 
     - the article referenced in the OP is plain wrong  garybeck   Apr-17-09 01:49 AM   #89 
        - I'm not defending Tobi, or her rhetoric.  Wilms   Apr-17-09 08:41 AM   #90 
           - I agree with you. I'm just saying it is wrong to say "making a bad system worse"  garybeck   Apr-17-09 11:13 AM   #91 
              - I agree with much of what you wrote.  Wilms   Apr-17-09 07:53 PM   #92 
  - here's my thoughts on this:  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-10-09 12:13 AM   #57 
 

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