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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-06-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Slow down.
Edited on Mon Apr-06-09 05:48 PM by Bill Bored
No one's saying non-auditability is a matter of indifference.

What they are saying is:

1. There are simple methods to audit lever machines that CAN NOT be applied to software-based systems. Even election lawyers know how!

2. The only way to audit the latter effectively is by doing lots of hand counts and using probabilistic methods that few will understand or comply with. What happened in CA CD-4, where the statisticians said there would almost certainly be a full recount? 10% is all they got, as far as I know, and I don't see any torches and pitchforks folks (or rationalists for that matter) in CA trying to find out who really won that election, do you? So what good are the audits if they don't hold the public's interest and the candidates go ahead and concede anyway with 90% of the vote left counted only be computers?

3. Lever machines place lots of upper bounds on the amount of miscounts, not just undervote rates, which are readily detectable if reported properly. For one thing there's no vote switching possible on lever machines. For another, there are fewer combinations of votes that have to be tested. For another, fewer voters per machine are allowed. And finally, the vote counts are recorded on election night, without the use of ANY software. Computers cannot even come close to this level of safety, at least not the kind of off-the-shelf crap that's being peddled by the voting industry today. Would you run an election Windows? Give me a break!

And don't even get me started on Ballot Definition Programming, outsourcing, virus propagation and all the rest!

To suggest that ANY of this is equivalent to the situation with DREs or scanners is JUST PLAIN WRONG and you know it.

4. The other concerns is that no one knows where the ballots go after the election when the audits are to be conducted.

5. And finally, there's a real chance that no one will comply with the type of auditing that will be needed to find out who won the scanner elections, even if there are laws about that. And I bet you know that too.

All that said, of course we have to try anyway, IF we are stupid enough to replace the levers in the first place! But frankly, I have not heard jack shit from those who think we should take that leap, and so far, they have been the ones LEAST involved in trying to make e-vote counting safe. They just want to get there and worry about the details later.
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  -2009 Holt Bill. E-Voting: Making a Bad System Worse Wilms  Mar-29-09 02:24 PM   #0 
  - K&R...nt  kster   Mar-29-09 02:44 PM   #1 
  - I see Nancy's losing her touch  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-10-09 06:26 PM   #64 
  - I don't know why progress has to be "incremental." What the fuck is this matter with  Peace Patriot   Mar-29-09 03:02 PM   #2 
  - I could not care less how many voting systems have a paper trail  gristy   Mar-29-09 03:07 PM   #3 
  - I meant "no paper trail at all." I chose the phrase carefully. It includes paper ballots  Peace Patriot   Mar-29-09 03:45 PM   #4 
  - Because if you go for "all or nothing" you will get NOTHING.  Yellow Horse   Mar-30-09 05:45 AM   #9 
     - 100% HCPB ain't going to happen.  Wilms   Mar-30-09 10:05 AM   #13 
  - Here come the NYers! (See this comment by a REAL Democrat!)  Bill Bored   Mar-29-09 04:46 PM   #5 
  - K&R!!  Stevepol   Mar-29-09 05:09 PM   #6 
  - K&R we ALREADY HAVE our rights, the govt is violating them, it's their JOB to guarantee them nt  Land Shark   Mar-29-09 10:23 PM   #7 
  - We've all heard this crap before and I for one am sick of it.  Yellow Horse   Mar-30-09 05:33 AM   #8 
  - The rhetoric can be nauseating, I agree.  Wilms   Mar-30-09 09:58 AM   #12 
  - Wilms, the Pennsylvania House of Representatives was decided in 2006 on PAPER BALLOTS.  demodonkey   Mar-30-09 06:38 PM   #16 
     - Glad the recount happened in that particular case.  Wilms   Mar-30-09 09:48 PM   #18 
        - The recount was requested by the losing candidate, as I recall.  demodonkey   Apr-01-09 09:01 PM   #19 
           - Looks like it was a count or re-count of absentee and provisionals.  Wilms   Apr-02-09 05:49 AM   #20 
           - If there were voter intent issues with the paper ballots, I think lever machines  Bill Bored   Apr-03-09 11:05 PM   #21 
              - Well if history follows the pattern we will get a GOP Gov in 2010  demodonkey   Apr-05-09 06:49 AM   #28 
  - "Real reform?" that's pretty funny....if you're referring to Holt's bill...  Land Shark   Mar-30-09 12:02 PM   #15 
     - You prefer the "dreary future" of paperless DREs for millions of voters if this bill doesn't pass??  Yellow Horse   Mar-30-09 07:03 PM   #17 
        - I've been a major factor in getting rid of paperless DREs in my county at the time  Land Shark   Apr-05-09 02:07 PM   #33 
  - OK, on these two arguments  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-30-09 07:22 AM   #10 
  - ...paper ballots have been used to correct election outcomes, and that will continue...  Wilms   Mar-30-09 09:48 AM   #11 
  - did I say that paper ballots are ALWAYS used to correct election outcomes?  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-30-09 10:35 AM   #14 
     - We DO know the Holt bill is HEADED toward 100% hand counts, only statistics are used to limit work  Land Shark   Apr-05-09 02:10 PM   #35 
        - sorry I missed this  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-10-09 04:59 AM   #59 
  - OK, let's compare!  Bill Bored   Apr-04-09 12:58 AM   #22 
     - you know about the local election  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-04-09 01:16 AM   #23 
        - Local elections can only be confirmed with full hand counts.  Bill Bored   Apr-04-09 03:53 AM   #24 
        - I'm surprised this "lever" discussion is still going nowhere after a week.  Wilms   Apr-05-09 02:24 AM   #26 
           - where can it go?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-05-09 08:23 AM   #30 
              - "...a paper audit trail that actually gets audited?" Yeah that. nt  Bill Bored   Apr-05-09 01:06 PM   #32 
              - I'm not not interested? Pardon?  Wilms   Apr-05-09 02:09 PM   #34 
                 - maybe I'm misreading the posts, then  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-06-09 08:07 AM   #36 
                    - Slow down.  Bill Bored   Apr-06-09 05:41 PM   #37 
                       - mmm  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-07-09 12:28 PM   #38 
                          - I think I said vote switching DURING an election is impossible on levers.  Bill Bored   Apr-07-09 01:40 PM   #39 
                          - mmmmm  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-07-09 02:17 PM   #40 
                             - Couple of points:  Bill Bored   Apr-08-09 12:03 AM   #41 
                                - mmmmmmm  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-08-09 08:03 AM   #44 
                                   - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  Bill Bored   Apr-08-09 01:12 PM   #46 
                                      - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  Wilms   Apr-08-09 09:26 PM   #50 
                                      - You win only because long subject lines have to separated with spaces. nt  Bill Bored   Apr-10-09 05:47 PM   #63 
                                      - well, you don't know that  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-09-09 07:37 AM   #52 
                                         - Hmmm. Exit Polls. Andi Novick.  Wilms   Apr-09-09 08:33 AM   #54 
                                            - Wilms, why are you blowing smoke about this?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-09-09 03:37 PM   #55 
                                               - Me?  Wilms   Apr-09-09 09:03 PM   #56 
                                               - sure  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-10-09 04:52 AM   #58 
                                               - And your doubt about Novick's legal strategy has been noted, repeatedly.  Wilms   Apr-10-09 10:03 AM   #60 
                                               - huh?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-10-09 01:57 PM   #62 
                                               - It's not the state board. It's ERMA.  Wilms   Apr-10-09 10:34 PM   #65 
                                               - how is that a way to keep the levers?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 05:48 AM   #72 
                                               - That's not how some see it.  Wilms   Apr-14-09 09:21 AM   #74 
                                               - nu?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 11:31 AM   #75 
                                               - How many more times do you want to go around this issue?  Wilms   Apr-14-09 12:06 PM   #78 
                                               - so, your view is that the federal case is closed?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 12:24 PM   #79 
                                               - That's a bit rude.  Wilms   Apr-14-09 12:40 PM   #80 
                                               - I'm a bit frustrated  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 01:10 PM   #81 
                                               - How many more times to you want to go around that same point?  Wilms   Apr-14-09 01:46 PM   #82 
                                               - you're only responsible for the weakness of your argument  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 01:49 PM   #83 
                                               - And I already told you there is the issue with the money NY took. n/t  Wilms   Apr-14-09 02:12 PM   #84 
                                               - what part of "Section 301" do you find ambiguous?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 02:35 PM   #85 
                                               - What part of I went over this with you last summer don't you get?  Wilms   Apr-14-09 02:41 PM   #86 
                                               - you linked to nothing in particular  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 02:48 PM   #87 
                                               - links  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-13-09 01:28 PM   #68 
                                               - Nice work.  Wilms   Apr-14-09 09:11 AM   #73 
                                               - CORRECTION! Hockley-Delgado's margin was 47 votes -- not 67 votes. (Pretty close race.) nt  Bill Bored   Apr-14-09 11:58 AM   #76 
                                               - lessee  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-14-09 12:02 PM   #77 
                                               - Wilms isn't -blowing- smoke  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-10-09 12:31 PM   #61 
                          - Now I get it. In fact, you'd trust your vote in an inadequately audited computer tabulated election.  Wilms   Apr-08-09 12:05 AM   #42 
                             - I sometimes wonder  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-08-09 07:33 AM   #43 
                                - Obviously there's no perfect system.  Wilms   Apr-08-09 10:30 AM   #45 
                                   - grunt  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-08-09 01:18 PM   #47 
                                      - When was the last time a scanner jockey mentioned anything about a scanner failure?  Bill Bored   Apr-08-09 08:58 PM   #48 
                                      - BB, Im not trying to take your levers, but a fact or two here please  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-10-09 11:47 PM   #66 
                                         - I spend about as much time on federal E.I. legislation as Bush spent on Bin Laden!  Bill Bored   Apr-11-09 02:26 AM   #67 
                                            - maybe you should take the time to get to know your own US senators  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-15-09 11:31 PM   #88 
                                      - Don't worry. Be happy.  Wilms   Apr-08-09 09:24 PM   #49 
                                         - that's incorrect  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-09-09 07:27 AM   #51 
                                            - I am mistaken. You did mention a problem attributed to a jam.  Wilms   Apr-09-09 08:17 AM   #53 
  - This is misleading.  garybeck   Apr-04-09 11:24 PM   #25 
  - Holt's 3/5/10% audit will not give a high statistical confidence in close elections.  Wilms   Apr-05-09 06:33 AM   #27 
     - Andy wanted voter-verified paper ballots with meaningful audits, but he was also a realist...  demodonkey   Apr-05-09 06:53 AM   #29 
     - Andy wasn't alone in getting your "state's plight" wrong.  Wilms   Apr-05-09 08:47 AM   #31 
        - Enough of this. I grow tired of being called a liar, and doing so is beneath you Wilms.  demodonkey   Apr-13-09 03:52 PM   #69 
           - No.I didn't call you a liar.  Wilms   Apr-13-09 09:01 PM   #70 
           - NY state is making no arguments for levers; the people of NY State are.  Bill Bored   Apr-14-09 04:25 AM   #71 
     - the article referenced in the OP is plain wrong  garybeck   Apr-17-09 01:49 AM   #89 
        - I'm not defending Tobi, or her rhetoric.  Wilms   Apr-17-09 08:41 AM   #90 
           - I agree with you. I'm just saying it is wrong to say "making a bad system worse"  garybeck   Apr-17-09 11:13 AM   #91 
              - I agree with much of what you wrote.  Wilms   Apr-17-09 07:53 PM   #92 
  - here's my thoughts on this:  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-10-09 12:13 AM   #57 
 

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