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Reply #50: Oh, and BTW, you're wrong about this too: [View All]

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. Oh, and BTW, you're wrong about this too:
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 02:06 PM by Bill Bored
You say that this is ambiguous:

"at least one direct recording electronic voting system or other voting system equipped for individuals with disabilities at each polling place."

...because: "How can one direct recording electronic 'voting system' in each polling place mean the 301(b) sense of 'voting system?' For example, the 301(b) definition includes any component of the voting system used to 'define ballots.' But for a DRE used in a polling place, the ballot has been defined by the election management system."

The answer to your question is very simple: :think:
There is no law that precludes the use of a stand-alone "voting system" with a LOCAL election management system in each polling place, is there? If so, then cite it! You can't because it doesn't exist -- but then maybe you're just not used to reading legislation! ;-)

Also, you very conveniently ignore the rest the sentence which says "...or other voting system equipped for individuals with disabilities at each polling place."

That part means you can have an accessible ballot marker instead of a DRE, or a voting system with a central EMS, or a voting system that uses a VotePAD for accessibility, or a voting system that uses a telephone-based audio system, or a LEVER voting system modified to meet the accessibility requirements!


"I think the bottom line is that the drafters of HAVA screwed up, and we don't know what the heck 'voting system' means in the context of the paper-record requirement in 301(a)(2). It could mean individual devices or the whole shebang of equipment, documentation, and practices."

No, it means the whole voting "system" -- as defined in the statute! But nothing in the statute says an entire voting system can't be contained in a polling place if someone builds it that way. In fact, some in NY even claim that we will have "stand-alone" voting machines or systems. Unfortunately, this is ]BUNK because there will be EMSs used to define ballots and elections for multiple devices (hundreds or thousands at a time!) and that, by definition, means the voting devices are NOT "stand alone."

And that, my friend, is why e-vote counting is so frickin' dangerous -- and many in NY are still clueless about that, esp. some of the election lawyers and legislators who are trying to regulate the use of a technology they know absolutely nothing about! Get it?

But as to your HAVA interpretation, you are stretching this even further than the discredited EAC has. I'd be interested in knowing WHY. What's your agenda? Who do you work for? What's your SOLUTION to the Election Verification PROBLEM? (You do realize it's a PROBLEM, don't you?)
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  -Voter's Unite Responds to NYVV's Innaccurate and Incomplete "Fact (sic) Sheet" Wilms  Feb-20-09 11:24 PM   #0 
  - Are they all sleeping? Or are they just not doing their job  kster   Feb-21-09 01:11 AM   #1 
  - hey, do you have hand counted paper ballots in your home town, county or state?  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-21-09 12:31 PM   #3 
  - Hand Count  a777pilot   Feb-21-09 12:37 PM   #4 
     - Welcome to DU, 777.  troubleinwinter   Feb-21-09 07:49 PM   #5 
     - Hand Count E'm if you Got Em  kster   Feb-22-09 01:12 AM   #8 
  - We in NC deliberately chose the term "voting system" to ensure  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-21-09 12:29 PM   #2 
  - They are not working against each other. NYVV has mistated some facts and VU has corrected them.  Bill Bored   Feb-21-09 10:46 PM   #7 
  - yeesh  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-22-09 07:28 AM   #9 
     - Wrong.  Wilms   Feb-22-09 10:53 AM   #10 
        - huh?  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-22-09 01:17 PM   #11 
           - I'll put a lever up against a DRE, any day, in a transparency competition.  Wilms   Feb-22-09 04:14 PM   #12 
              - is that the choice?  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-22-09 07:41 PM   #13 
                 - The difference is...  Bill Bored   Feb-22-09 08:38 PM   #14 
                 - Pencil lead will wear away as gears rub against it over the course of election day...  demodonkey   Feb-22-09 09:26 PM   #15 
                    - Well, that's why the machine should be tested before each election and LOCKED.  Bill Bored   Feb-23-09 01:42 PM   #20 
                       - The old-time reasoning was that the person doing the locking was the person inserting the lead.  demodonkey   Feb-23-09 06:17 PM   #22 
                          - One problem with this scenario in NY:  Bill Bored   Feb-23-09 08:56 PM   #25 
                 - You brought up DREs. I didn't.  Wilms   Feb-22-09 10:40 PM   #16 
                 - but so far you haven't addressed my central point  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-23-09 05:44 AM   #17 
                    - I did address your point.  Wilms   Feb-23-09 09:25 AM   #18 
                       - it's my vote, not yours  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-23-09 12:51 PM   #19 
                          - Wilms' point about the "Me Generation" is intertesting.  Bill Bored   Feb-23-09 02:25 PM   #21 
                          - I just don't think this is correct  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-24-09 08:02 AM   #30 
                             - This isn't about Novick...or Jones.  Wilms   Feb-24-09 09:29 AM   #31 
                             - I'll tell you who's really in deep denial:  Bill Bored   Feb-26-09 02:36 AM   #34 
                             - Can I quote you?!?  Wilms   Feb-26-09 09:13 AM   #35 
                                - Wilms, WTF?  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-27-09 04:09 PM   #36 
                                   - I'm just appreciating it.  Wilms   Feb-27-09 09:07 PM   #37 
                                   - Now boys, boys...please let's try to keep the discussion CIVIL!  Bill Bored   Mar-02-09 02:23 PM   #51 
                          - How's those ballot security bills going in the NYS Legislature?  Wilms   Feb-23-09 09:34 PM   #26 
                             - no, I'm totally frustrated about the matter at hand  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-24-09 07:57 AM   #29 
                                - It's bizarre to you.  Wilms   Feb-24-09 09:34 AM   #32 
                 - Levers are NOT transparent, their plus is the limited risk compared to risk with computerized voting  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-23-09 07:17 PM   #23 
                 - Avi Rubin on software vs. lever machines:  Bill Bored   Feb-24-09 03:14 AM   #28 
                 - Levers are NOT transparent, their plus is the limited risk compared to risk with computerized voting  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-23-09 07:17 PM   #24 
                    - See Post #21. Transparency is in the eye of the beholder, but with software,  Bill Bored   Feb-24-09 03:07 AM   #27 
  - self delete  Cookie wookie   Mar-06-09 07:14 AM   #52 
  - K&R!  Stevepol   Feb-21-09 08:28 PM   #6 
  - NYVV's interpretation re permanent paper records is reasonable  payin attention   Feb-26-09 12:48 AM   #33 
  - well...  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-28-09 10:10 AM   #38 
  - GIven the EAC Advisory, NYVV is reasonable  payin attention   Feb-28-09 10:29 PM   #39 
     - the ground is getting a bit boggy  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 09:24 AM   #40 
     - Professor Blur, do you still defend Lipari being disingenuous and misleading?  Wilms   Mar-01-09 10:19 AM   #41 
        - dude, you are flatly misquoting him  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 12:40 PM   #42 
           - I have not misquoted him.  Wilms   Mar-01-09 01:41 PM   #43 
              - look, you can't win this  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 06:05 PM   #46 
                 - Hey. I already "won".  Wilms   Mar-01-09 07:14 PM   #47 
                    - I welcome anyone to listen to the MP3  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 09:00 PM   #48 
                       - Forget my "line". It's Lipari's at issue.  Wilms   Mar-01-09 10:48 PM   #49 
     - That advisory is NOT reasonable!  Bill Bored   Mar-01-09 05:11 PM   #45 
  - You are wrong. Here's why:  Bill Bored   Mar-01-09 05:00 PM   #44 
  - Oh, and BTW, you're wrong about this too:  Bill Bored   Mar-02-09 02:01 PM   #50 
  - kick! nt  Bill Bored   May-20-09 10:58 AM   #53 
 

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