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Reply #34: I'll tell you who's really in deep denial: [View All]

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-09 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. I'll tell you who's really in deep denial:
Edited on Thu Feb-26-09 03:09 AM by Bill Bored
those who continue to advocate for paper ballots, counted by computers, with NO idea how to go about verifying the election outcomes.

This has been going on for years, and you know it. I realize it's the best they can do in 49 other states, but NY should not be made to pay the price for butterfly ballots and sub-standard punch cards in Florida 2000, whether they were deliberately introduced into that voting system or not. (Coincidentally, Sequoia did dump their AVM lever holdings shortly after the FL 2000 meltdown, but way before HAVA and the deliberate misreading of HAVA that would "ban" the levers. Interesting when you consider that levers had nothing to do with FL 2000. So what did Sequoia know and when did they know it?)

If levers fail so often, how do you explain NY's undervote rate, which is comparable to that of other states running software -- (except for the fact that a software-based undervote rate can't be verified)? When lever machines lose votes, you get undervotes. So where are they? Moved over the border to Syria?

I believe there may be other ways to prove that this isn't happening, such as counting discrepancies between the public and protective counters, which are the MOST frequently used ones in the machine (every time a ballot is cast). But no one is seriously interested in considering this because it doesn't fit their paradigm of counting paper with computers.

And frankly, I wish Doug Jones would 86 that 99 story unless he or Saltman can give a bit more detail than "noticeably different from the number of 98's or 100's." And the levers are NOT that hard to test. Software is hard to test!

As far as transparency, if levers are not, scanners and DREs are CERTAINLY NOT.

As far as tampering, it's the procedures that prevent it. But I doubt there are any that can do so very effectively where software is concerned. At least none that are well-understood by non-IT-security geeks, and they aren't the folks running most of our elections, are they?

Suffice it to say that election officials and most attorneys who are trying to run this stuff are pretty damn clueless about how any of it works, despite all the grant money that's supposed to be going to educate them! After all that, I still only trust them to know how to run a lever election. That's about it.

But you've already agreed that "it's at least perfectly plausible to say that lever machines are the best we've got."
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  -Voter's Unite Responds to NYVV's Innaccurate and Incomplete "Fact (sic) Sheet" Wilms  Feb-20-09 11:24 PM   #0 
  - Are they all sleeping? Or are they just not doing their job  kster   Feb-21-09 01:11 AM   #1 
  - hey, do you have hand counted paper ballots in your home town, county or state?  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-21-09 12:31 PM   #3 
  - Hand Count  a777pilot   Feb-21-09 12:37 PM   #4 
     - Welcome to DU, 777.  troubleinwinter   Feb-21-09 07:49 PM   #5 
     - Hand Count E'm if you Got Em  kster   Feb-22-09 01:12 AM   #8 
  - We in NC deliberately chose the term "voting system" to ensure  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-21-09 12:29 PM   #2 
  - They are not working against each other. NYVV has mistated some facts and VU has corrected them.  Bill Bored   Feb-21-09 10:46 PM   #7 
  - yeesh  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-22-09 07:28 AM   #9 
     - Wrong.  Wilms   Feb-22-09 10:53 AM   #10 
        - huh?  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-22-09 01:17 PM   #11 
           - I'll put a lever up against a DRE, any day, in a transparency competition.  Wilms   Feb-22-09 04:14 PM   #12 
              - is that the choice?  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-22-09 07:41 PM   #13 
                 - The difference is...  Bill Bored   Feb-22-09 08:38 PM   #14 
                 - Pencil lead will wear away as gears rub against it over the course of election day...  demodonkey   Feb-22-09 09:26 PM   #15 
                    - Well, that's why the machine should be tested before each election and LOCKED.  Bill Bored   Feb-23-09 01:42 PM   #20 
                       - The old-time reasoning was that the person doing the locking was the person inserting the lead.  demodonkey   Feb-23-09 06:17 PM   #22 
                          - One problem with this scenario in NY:  Bill Bored   Feb-23-09 08:56 PM   #25 
                 - You brought up DREs. I didn't.  Wilms   Feb-22-09 10:40 PM   #16 
                 - but so far you haven't addressed my central point  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-23-09 05:44 AM   #17 
                    - I did address your point.  Wilms   Feb-23-09 09:25 AM   #18 
                       - it's my vote, not yours  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-23-09 12:51 PM   #19 
                          - Wilms' point about the "Me Generation" is intertesting.  Bill Bored   Feb-23-09 02:25 PM   #21 
                          - I just don't think this is correct  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-24-09 08:02 AM   #30 
                             - This isn't about Novick...or Jones.  Wilms   Feb-24-09 09:29 AM   #31 
                             - I'll tell you who's really in deep denial:  Bill Bored   Feb-26-09 02:36 AM   #34 
                             - Can I quote you?!?  Wilms   Feb-26-09 09:13 AM   #35 
                                - Wilms, WTF?  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-27-09 04:09 PM   #36 
                                   - I'm just appreciating it.  Wilms   Feb-27-09 09:07 PM   #37 
                                   - Now boys, boys...please let's try to keep the discussion CIVIL!  Bill Bored   Mar-02-09 02:23 PM   #51 
                          - How's those ballot security bills going in the NYS Legislature?  Wilms   Feb-23-09 09:34 PM   #26 
                             - no, I'm totally frustrated about the matter at hand  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-24-09 07:57 AM   #29 
                                - It's bizarre to you.  Wilms   Feb-24-09 09:34 AM   #32 
                 - Levers are NOT transparent, their plus is the limited risk compared to risk with computerized voting  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-23-09 07:17 PM   #23 
                 - Avi Rubin on software vs. lever machines:  Bill Bored   Feb-24-09 03:14 AM   #28 
                 - Levers are NOT transparent, their plus is the limited risk compared to risk with computerized voting  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-23-09 07:17 PM   #24 
                    - See Post #21. Transparency is in the eye of the beholder, but with software,  Bill Bored   Feb-24-09 03:07 AM   #27 
  - self delete  Cookie wookie   Mar-06-09 07:14 AM   #52 
  - K&R!  Stevepol   Feb-21-09 08:28 PM   #6 
  - NYVV's interpretation re permanent paper records is reasonable  payin attention   Feb-26-09 12:48 AM   #33 
  - well...  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-28-09 10:10 AM   #38 
  - GIven the EAC Advisory, NYVV is reasonable  payin attention   Feb-28-09 10:29 PM   #39 
     - the ground is getting a bit boggy  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 09:24 AM   #40 
     - Professor Blur, do you still defend Lipari being disingenuous and misleading?  Wilms   Mar-01-09 10:19 AM   #41 
        - dude, you are flatly misquoting him  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 12:40 PM   #42 
           - I have not misquoted him.  Wilms   Mar-01-09 01:41 PM   #43 
              - look, you can't win this  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 06:05 PM   #46 
                 - Hey. I already "won".  Wilms   Mar-01-09 07:14 PM   #47 
                    - I welcome anyone to listen to the MP3  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 09:00 PM   #48 
                       - Forget my "line". It's Lipari's at issue.  Wilms   Mar-01-09 10:48 PM   #49 
     - That advisory is NOT reasonable!  Bill Bored   Mar-01-09 05:11 PM   #45 
  - You are wrong. Here's why:  Bill Bored   Mar-01-09 05:00 PM   #44 
  - Oh, and BTW, you're wrong about this too:  Bill Bored   Mar-02-09 02:01 PM   #50 
  - kick! nt  Bill Bored   May-20-09 10:58 AM   #53 

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