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Reply #21: Wilms' point about the "Me Generation" is intertesting. [View All]

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-23-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Wilms' point about the "Me Generation" is intertesting.
Edited on Mon Feb-23-09 02:34 PM by Bill Bored
While he may be somewhat abrasive in the way he expresses it, the debate for many seems to be about the recording of "my vote" rather than the assurance that the collective will of the People is reflected in the electoral outcome. This is dangerous.

The reasons that levers are transparent should be, well, transparent and quite obvious. You can see how the votes will be counted before the election by testing the machines, reading the patents (which show in painstaking detail EXACTLY how they work) and by observing the mechanism first hand. Software can't begin to approach this, esp. when it involves operating systems, other COTS stuff, and the voting system software which is COMPILED code that makes source code review a relatively futile, but time-consuming and expansive exercise.

BTW, no one I know of is claiming that lever machines are PERFECT, or that any other voting system is either.

If being able to see how the votes will be counted isn't good enough because there is no post-vote-casting record of an individual vote, then it is incumbent on those who insist on such records to show how THEY will be counted. And so far, no one has been able to do that.

In fact, with the exception of some (but not all) elections that are too close to call -- even with 100% post-election hand counts -- such records, called "ballots", are almost never counted after the election. And when they are counted, they are NOT counted in quantities sufficient to reveal discrepancies that could change the electoral outcome. Not to mention the chain of custody problem.

Given NY's piss poor audit and recount laws, and lack of experience handling vast numbers of paper ballots, which went out with the horse and buggy, it's not a good idea to replace lever machines with computers. Not that there's ANYTHING wrong with paper ballots of course. But I strongly doubt that NYers will be willing to handle them properly after 100 years of depending on simple mechanical counting devices that have obviated the need to do so in large numbers. They will simply trust the computers, and that's not an acceptable replacement for lever machines.

I think it's fair to say that NYVV's attitude about this is typical of many uninformed folks in the movement. I.e., if we have a voter-marked paper ballot, everything will be fine because it provides "voter verification."

But election verification i.e., determining the will of the People, is a whole 'nother ballgame.
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  -Voter's Unite Responds to NYVV's Innaccurate and Incomplete "Fact (sic) Sheet" Wilms  Feb-20-09 11:24 PM   #0 
  - Are they all sleeping? Or are they just not doing their job  kster   Feb-21-09 01:11 AM   #1 
  - hey, do you have hand counted paper ballots in your home town, county or state?  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-21-09 12:31 PM   #3 
  - Hand Count  a777pilot   Feb-21-09 12:37 PM   #4 
     - Welcome to DU, 777.  troubleinwinter   Feb-21-09 07:49 PM   #5 
     - Hand Count E'm if you Got Em  kster   Feb-22-09 01:12 AM   #8 
  - We in NC deliberately chose the term "voting system" to ensure  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-21-09 12:29 PM   #2 
  - They are not working against each other. NYVV has mistated some facts and VU has corrected them.  Bill Bored   Feb-21-09 10:46 PM   #7 
  - yeesh  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-22-09 07:28 AM   #9 
     - Wrong.  Wilms   Feb-22-09 10:53 AM   #10 
        - huh?  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-22-09 01:17 PM   #11 
           - I'll put a lever up against a DRE, any day, in a transparency competition.  Wilms   Feb-22-09 04:14 PM   #12 
              - is that the choice?  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-22-09 07:41 PM   #13 
                 - The difference is...  Bill Bored   Feb-22-09 08:38 PM   #14 
                 - Pencil lead will wear away as gears rub against it over the course of election day...  demodonkey   Feb-22-09 09:26 PM   #15 
                    - Well, that's why the machine should be tested before each election and LOCKED.  Bill Bored   Feb-23-09 01:42 PM   #20 
                       - The old-time reasoning was that the person doing the locking was the person inserting the lead.  demodonkey   Feb-23-09 06:17 PM   #22 
                          - One problem with this scenario in NY:  Bill Bored   Feb-23-09 08:56 PM   #25 
                 - You brought up DREs. I didn't.  Wilms   Feb-22-09 10:40 PM   #16 
                 - but so far you haven't addressed my central point  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-23-09 05:44 AM   #17 
                    - I did address your point.  Wilms   Feb-23-09 09:25 AM   #18 
                       - it's my vote, not yours  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-23-09 12:51 PM   #19 
                          - Wilms' point about the "Me Generation" is intertesting.  Bill Bored   Feb-23-09 02:25 PM   #21 
                          - I just don't think this is correct  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-24-09 08:02 AM   #30 
                             - This isn't about Novick...or Jones.  Wilms   Feb-24-09 09:29 AM   #31 
                             - I'll tell you who's really in deep denial:  Bill Bored   Feb-26-09 02:36 AM   #34 
                             - Can I quote you?!?  Wilms   Feb-26-09 09:13 AM   #35 
                                - Wilms, WTF?  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-27-09 04:09 PM   #36 
                                   - I'm just appreciating it.  Wilms   Feb-27-09 09:07 PM   #37 
                                   - Now boys, boys...please let's try to keep the discussion CIVIL!  Bill Bored   Mar-02-09 02:23 PM   #51 
                          - How's those ballot security bills going in the NYS Legislature?  Wilms   Feb-23-09 09:34 PM   #26 
                             - no, I'm totally frustrated about the matter at hand  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-24-09 07:57 AM   #29 
                                - It's bizarre to you.  Wilms   Feb-24-09 09:34 AM   #32 
                 - Levers are NOT transparent, their plus is the limited risk compared to risk with computerized voting  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-23-09 07:17 PM   #23 
                 - Avi Rubin on software vs. lever machines:  Bill Bored   Feb-24-09 03:14 AM   #28 
                 - Levers are NOT transparent, their plus is the limited risk compared to risk with computerized voting  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-23-09 07:17 PM   #24 
                    - See Post #21. Transparency is in the eye of the beholder, but with software,  Bill Bored   Feb-24-09 03:07 AM   #27 
  - self delete  Cookie wookie   Mar-06-09 07:14 AM   #52 
  - K&R!  Stevepol   Feb-21-09 08:28 PM   #6 
  - NYVV's interpretation re permanent paper records is reasonable  payin attention   Feb-26-09 12:48 AM   #33 
  - well...  OnTheOtherHand   Feb-28-09 10:10 AM   #38 
  - GIven the EAC Advisory, NYVV is reasonable  payin attention   Feb-28-09 10:29 PM   #39 
     - the ground is getting a bit boggy  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 09:24 AM   #40 
     - Professor Blur, do you still defend Lipari being disingenuous and misleading?  Wilms   Mar-01-09 10:19 AM   #41 
        - dude, you are flatly misquoting him  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 12:40 PM   #42 
           - I have not misquoted him.  Wilms   Mar-01-09 01:41 PM   #43 
              - look, you can't win this  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 06:05 PM   #46 
                 - Hey. I already "won".  Wilms   Mar-01-09 07:14 PM   #47 
                    - I welcome anyone to listen to the MP3  OnTheOtherHand   Mar-01-09 09:00 PM   #48 
                       - Forget my "line". It's Lipari's at issue.  Wilms   Mar-01-09 10:48 PM   #49 
     - That advisory is NOT reasonable!  Bill Bored   Mar-01-09 05:11 PM   #45 
  - You are wrong. Here's why:  Bill Bored   Mar-01-09 05:00 PM   #44 
  - Oh, and BTW, you're wrong about this too:  Bill Bored   Mar-02-09 02:01 PM   #50 
  - kick! nt  Bill Bored   May-20-09 10:58 AM   #53 
 

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