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Reply #38: A possibility to recount by hand? When and where? [View All]

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-05-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
38. A possibility to recount by hand? When and where?
Edited on Mon Jan-05-09 07:10 PM by Bill Bored
NY election law has never allowed post-election recounts. The law requires recounts to be done at the polling places on election night. You want a recount? Fine, do it before any of the ballots are moved, in front of all the required witnesses from at least the 2 major parties.

Now, with a voting system where paper ballots are counted by computers, on what basis would there be cause for such a recount? There is no way to know by observation that anything is wrong, unless you get a completely off-the-wall result such as a polling place with no votes. If 10% of the vote were switched by a scanner, no one would know, but that's physically impossible with a lever machine.

So now we are supposed to have the post-election audit, days after the polls have closed and the paper ballots have been relocated. And we need a sample of these relocated ballots that would be large enough to detect tampering or errors made by software. Do you know how big a hand count that would have to be? Probably not because there's no simple answer to the question. It depends on a number of factors that most people don't even want to know about. And how do we know these are the same ballots cast on election night anyway?

In NY, the lever voting machine that solved all these problems by providing accurate counts on election night with a fully disclosed counting system that never relied on software. You can't just replace such a system with computers without introducing unprecedented undetectable risks to the vote count.

If you can show me a method that will work, I'm interested, but so far, nobody has, although we keep trying. Until a couple of years ago, hardly anyone had even done the math to figure out how many paper ballots had to be recounted by hand to prove that the machines called the election correctly. Now that we have some idea of how many, almost no one's actually doing it!

This thread is about IRV which multiplies the complexity of this problem. I don't know if you're pushing for that or not, but you seem to be OK with trusting software and post-election recounts of ballots that may not even be the same ones voted on election night. That's essentially what you're pushing if you think NY should replace lever voting machines with computers.
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  -New Yorkers should be alert - new threat to Lever Machines WillYourVoteBCounted  Jan-05-09 12:00 AM   #0 
  - More: IRV is a well intended reform, but doesn't meet its promise.  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 12:15 AM   #1 
  - Other nations are using IRV . . . let's look at their actual experiences . . .  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 12:19 AM   #3 
     - I live in the foreign country of North Carolina, and IRV is threatening our verified voting law  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 12:22 AM   #4 
     - This is an old problem, having nothing to do with IRV --  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 12:29 AM   #7 
        - How a 2007 IRV experiment violated several of NC election laws  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 01:09 AM   #13 
           - But WHO violated your laws ...  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 03:00 PM   #24 
     - Scotland traded hand counted paper ballots for STV (a form of IRV)  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 12:24 AM   #5 
        - IRV has nothing to do with computer counting ....  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 12:31 AM   #8 
           - did you read the OP? IRV incentivizes computerized voting machines  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 01:02 AM   #12 
           - That's an OPINION ...  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 03:04 PM   #25 
              - Thats an opinion of an internationally reknowned Computer Scientist  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 07:36 PM   #44 
                 - It's still OPINION . . . and you're on ignore . . .  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 11:49 PM   #55 
                    - in your case, the phrase "epic fail" comes to mind  OnTheOtherHand   Jan-06-09 07:44 PM   #63 
           - IRV just happens to incentivize computerized counting  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 01:10 AM   #14 
              - Voters were confused by "butterfly ballot" ...that's why they were banned ....  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 03:10 PM   #26 
                 - Electionline: "Ranked-Choice Voting and Flawed Ballots Tax San Francisco's Election"  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 07:14 PM   #40 
                 - San Francisco Grand Jury Report: Instant runoff not understood by voters and poll workers  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 07:17 PM   #41 
                    - Are you repeating this . . .  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 11:47 PM   #54 
  - IRV can be paper and pen . . . doesn't have to be computer . . .  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 12:17 AM   #2 
  - Yes it could be but it requires software to count it - hence bye bye lever machines  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 12:26 AM   #6 
  - The problem is the dishonesty of HAVA not IRV . . .  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 12:31 AM   #9 
     - HAVA doesn't require voting machines  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 12:59 AM   #11 
        - Did I read ALL of HAVA ... No ...  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 02:43 PM   #22 
           - where did you read that HAVA required "voting machines"?  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 05:26 PM   #30 
              - That's right.  Wilms   Jan-05-09 09:27 PM   #47 
                 - To be fair . . . it's a program which offers duplicity/trickery . . .  defendandprotect   Jan-06-09 12:03 AM   #56 
                    - Fine. I'll agree. "most interpertations are that it pushes states/counties to electronic voting..."  Wilms   Jan-06-09 12:49 AM   #60 
                       - HAVA didn't require ditching punch cards either  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-06-09 06:14 PM   #61 
                          - From what I recall in recent reading ...  defendandprotect   Jan-06-09 06:59 PM   #62 
                             - Read again. HAVA did not ban punch cards  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-07-09 11:11 AM   #64 
                             - please provide a citation for what you read  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-07-09 11:13 AM   #65 
  - please tell us how IRV is counted in the United States and Scotland  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 01:20 AM   #16 
     - Please explain ...  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 03:14 PM   #27 
        - do you know anything about IRV, like how it is counted?  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 05:27 PM   #31 
           - How about ...  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 06:27 PM   #33 
              - IRV makes it easier to rig the election or just flat out miscount it  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 06:48 PM   #36 
                 - Baloney . .. that's Dem/Repug propaganda cause they don't want change ...  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 11:42 PM   #52 
  - What makes you want to cling to lever machines?  frazzled   Jan-05-09 12:33 AM   #10 
  - Learn why NY wants to cling to lever machines:  Bill Bored   Jan-05-09 03:28 AM   #18 
  - Agreed.... lever machines may be harder to fix ...  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 03:21 PM   #28 
     - Don't take HAVA money, except to provide accessibility.  Bill Bored   Jan-05-09 07:23 PM   #43 
        - Re your last paragraph . . .  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 11:46 PM   #53 
  - like clinging to their guns and religion?  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 11:45 AM   #19 
  - I ask again: what is wrong with a good (computerized) optical scanning of paper ballots?  frazzled   Jan-05-09 01:11 AM   #15 
  - NY is way ahead of the game!  Bill Bored   Jan-05-09 03:15 AM   #17 
     - I am sorry ...  frazzled   Jan-05-09 12:10 PM   #20 
        - please answer these questions so you can prove optical scan is better than levers:  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 12:33 PM   #21 
        - You can have PAPER with any system ....  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 03:22 PM   #29 
        - A possibility to recount by hand? When and where?  Bill Bored   Jan-05-09 07:06 PM   #38 
        - "the possibility to recount by hand"  Wilms   Jan-05-09 09:33 PM   #48 
  - I think we had best be "warned" that resistance to IRV comes mainly ...  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 02:53 PM   #23 
  - Dr. Rebecca Mercuri: IRV leads to "potential gaming" of the ballot  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 05:30 PM   #32 
  - I think we all have open minds about elections ...  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 06:36 PM   #34 
     - Libertarian Reform Caucus: "Anyone for a Bullet in the Foot? Instant Runoff!"  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 07:04 PM   #37 
     - Why does IRV lead to 2-party domination?  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 07:40 PM   #45 
        - Without doubt, the 2-party monopoly wants to keep lock on elections . . .  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 11:40 PM   #51 
           - without a doubt, IRV entrenches the 2-party monopoly  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-06-09 12:24 AM   #59 
  - Australian Politics: "promotes a two-party system...."  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 07:19 PM   #42 
  - For those not familiar with the decades of computer steals ...  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 06:39 PM   #35 
     - "IRV.. not summable.... makes it more susceptible to tampering"  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 07:07 PM   #39 
     - That's Dem/Repug propaganda -- they sure don't want CHOICE ....!!!  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 11:36 PM   #49 
        - and you support IRV which incentivizes computerized voting  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-06-09 12:23 AM   #58 
     - "The complexity of IRV ...provides increased opportunities for wholesale fraud or malfunction"  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-05-09 07:42 PM   #46 
        - The opponents of IRV are Dems and Repugs who don't want voters . . .  defendandprotect   Jan-05-09 11:38 PM   #50 
           - Attack the messenger because you have no facts  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-06-09 12:23 AM   #57 

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