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Reply #23: I read what diva said. *You* re-read what Diva said and then try to think [View All]

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tiptoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-17-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I read what diva said. *You* re-read what Diva said and then try to think
The OP describes only a Subsystem of an entire Voting System, namely one which deals with VERIFYING the vote by 1) offering a line-item report of the vote for scrutiny by HUNDREDS of VOTERS' eyes to OPENLY verify the recording of the vote by the select few humans delegated to handle the PAPER BALLOTS, with a "side effect" of 2) affording a count of the vote that is indepdendent of the select few humans delegated to count the DETAILS on the PAPER BALLOTS


Diva's sentences:
"logistically, the machines are NEVER all examined prior to an election;"
"they are distributed weeks or days in advance of the election, they are subject to the same security failures and breakdowns as proprietary devices;"

The difference is a "standard PC" -- if defective -- can be easily and quickly replaced, likely in much less than an hour! They are cheap enough to have a backup onhand. Moreover, the OP is talking about a PAPER BALLOT environment!

READ THE TITLE: "A S..., Ver..., Op..., PAPER BALLOT ... ..."

"Paper Ballot" means a physical, analog record of the vote exists, and, thus, the absence of a working PC and/or software would not preclude conducting any standard HCPB procedure. The presence, though, of a working PC and software can *facilitate* and greatly enhance the integrity of any PAPER BALLOT election, at and beyond the precinct level. (See "advantages" in the OP)

The only "machine" involved is a standard PC, which -- in the CONTEXT OF ITS USE in the OP -- DOES NOT HAVE the "SAME" security risks as other "voting" "machines" (and should NOT be so relegated for purposes of estimation), since

  • It's not involved in any secret recording the vote (like a DRE) -- HUMANS openly read and record data from PAPER BALLOTS onto the spreadsheet & preserve the paper ballots
  • It's not involved in any secret counting of the vote (DRE, OpSc) -- HUMANS can do the count (but Excel can record, count and produce organized output for efficient, independent scrutiny of its input data)
  • It's not involved in any unverifiable counting of the vote (DRE, OS-if-the-"audit"-is-half-assed)
  • It produces practical physical output at the precinct and higher-up levels, for verification of the vote at every level by HUNDREDS of EYES (unlike DREs, OpSc, and HCPB-methods) ...AND I GUARANTEE MORE THAN 3% of VOTERS will be "AUDITING"
  • There is no code hiding secret manipulations of data (like on DREs or OpSc), since each analog-recorded data entry to spreadsheet is verified by humans (...and, in the context of spreadsheet usage, RE-VERIFIABLE by voters themselves, not only at the PRECINCT but also via INTERNET and also RE-RE-VERIFIABLE AFTER the vote's upload to Central tabulator on Election day itself).
  • If a standard PC "breaks down", it is easily, quickly replaceable at local stores, likewise "off-the-shelf" software like Excel. ANY and EVERYTHING INPUT and OUTPUT via WHATEVER PC & Software USED is OPEN to INSPECTION and CROSS-CHECKING at EVERY LEVEL by NUMEROUS PEOPLE, including voters themselves (who, also, become empowered to ADD UP THE COUNT themselves). Can always resort to standard HCPB methods (whatever those are)
  • The spreadsheet is primarily organizing output for verifying the vote ON THE DAY OF THE ELECTION. Since a COUNT and RE-COUNT of the Vote CAN ALWAYS proceed from the Paper Ballots themselves by hand tallies, it need NEVER be deemed an unwelcome situation that Software and the EYES OF HUNDREDS OF VOTERS can provide indepedendent reviews and counts of the data as a check against human error, whether in recording, counting or both.
  • What the human handling and hand tallying cannot produce is a neat line item report for EVERY G**DAMN voter to VERIFY that HIS OWN G**DAMN PAPER BALLOT VOTE had been properly recorded (by parties likely unknown to him, by whatever method of recording used).

    "sorry, it's just putting lipstick on a pig in my humble opinion to think that open source is going to be a viable alternative. Machines be damned!!"

    uh expected cliche, but a crude over-reach here...depends on the context and the details.

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  -HAVA Look: A Simple, Verifiable, Open Source, Paper Ballot Vote-Recording & Counting System -- TIA tiptoe  Jul-17-08 08:02 AM   #0 
  - Did I miss something? Or is this a joke?  Wilms   Jul-17-08 08:37 AM   #1 
  - Where in the original post ...  Trajan   Jul-17-08 08:52 AM   #3 
  - In the opening paragraph.  Wilms   Jul-17-08 09:09 AM   #5 
     - Wrong .... You are misdirecting ...  Trajan   Jul-17-08 09:26 AM   #7 
        - So elections weren't vulnerable before HAVA?  Wilms   Jul-17-08 09:59 AM   #9 
        - Beside the point ...  Trajan   Jul-17-08 08:24 PM   #16 
           - So there were no DRE's before HAVA?  Wilms   Jul-17-08 08:39 PM   #17 
           - maybe if we reviewed the OP...  OnTheOtherHand   Jul-17-08 08:40 PM   #18 
              - Wilms made a statement redefining the OP's intent ....  Trajan   Jul-17-08 08:45 PM   #20 
                 - What strawman?  Wilms   Jul-17-08 08:49 PM   #22 
        - kick nt  tiptoe   Jan-29-09 08:35 AM   #37 
  - Yes. You missed something.  NCevilDUer   Jul-17-08 08:56 AM   #4 
     - No. You missed something.  Wilms   Jul-17-08 09:13 AM   #6 
     - There's no problem there.  NCevilDUer   Jul-17-08 09:53 AM   #8 
        - And that vote can then be bought or sold or coerced.  Wilms   Jul-17-08 10:01 AM   #10 
           - How?  NCevilDUer   Jul-17-08 10:25 AM   #11 
              - I know all about the voter fraud argument.  Wilms   Jul-17-08 08:44 PM   #19 
     - HAVA mandated one accessible voting system per precinct  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-29-09 10:35 AM   #38 
     - PS - HAVA didn't mandate voting computers - but mandated accessibility  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-29-09 10:36 AM   #39 
  - The actual cost of an open-source spreadsheet: $0  electropop   Jul-17-08 08:38 AM   #2 
  - Sounds like a good idea to me. Almost anything is better than what we've got.  Stevepol   Jul-17-08 01:49 PM   #12 
  - K&R.nt  kster   Jul-17-08 02:50 PM   #13 
  - How can Open Source possibly be a viable alternative????  diva77   Jul-17-08 03:21 PM   #14 
  - It's a transparent PAPER BALLOT subsys...w no vote-recording,-storage,-counting by black boxes.  tiptoe   Jul-17-08 04:39 PM   #15 
     - You recommended giving the voter a copy of the ballot.  Wilms   Jul-17-08 08:46 PM   #21 
        - I read what diva said. *You* re-read what Diva said and then try to think  tiptoe   Jul-17-08 11:43 PM   #23 
        - The idea seems well intentioned enough.  Wilms   Jul-18-08 12:21 AM   #25 
           - How am I advocating "non-secret voting"? nt  tiptoe   Jul-18-08 01:43 AM   #26 
              - "Voters can request a copy before leaving the precinct. "  Wilms   Jul-18-08 06:25 AM   #28 
                 - given the thugginess of one of the political parties  tiptoe   Jul-18-08 07:38 PM   #29 
                    - Of course you left out coercion...the main reason secret voting is valued.  Wilms   Jul-18-08 09:52 PM   #30 
        - a copy/representation of his forfeited "official ballot". Shouldn't the voter be so entitled?  tiptoe   Jul-17-08 11:50 PM   #24 
           - When the solution to the problem cost about a buck, for a  kster   Jul-18-08 02:06 AM   #27 
           - I want secret voting, but I do not want our secret vote to be counted in secret  kster   Jul-19-08 12:52 AM   #31 
  - talk about overengineering  foo_bar   Jul-19-08 12:05 PM   #32 
     - Please "corrupt the vote total" on this spreadsheet:  tiptoe   Jul-19-08 08:25 PM   #33 
        - no thanks  foo_bar   Jul-20-08 04:29 AM   #34 
           - "That says it all. Why not take up the challenge? ..." (A Reply from TIA)  tiptoe   Aug-06-08 12:00 AM   #35 
              - that's "no thanks, I don't open .xls files from shady pseudonyms with a geocities page"  foo_bar   Aug-06-08 07:32 AM   #36 

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