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Reply #37: The point is that somehow election officials have the idea that a 3% audit [View All]

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-30-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. The point is that somehow election officials have the idea that a 3% audit
Edited on Wed Jan-30-08 10:38 PM by Bill Bored
is all they'll ever have to do if they go with optical scan.

This is what NYVV were selling, according to your own research.

When I say cut-and-drop VVPAT is just as auditable, I mean in terms of the workload on election officials. They dump the ballots on a table somewhere and count them. No paper rolls. Individual paper records. So why limit op scan audits to 3% just because most of the voters marked their ballots with pens?

For NYVV to suggest that somehow optical scanners will reduce the need to audit more than 3% of machines is ludicrous. If anything, they would increase the need because they have more ballots per machine than the DREs, and this leads to lower statistical confidence.

NYVV seem prepared to accept vote counts from software, as long as it's scanner software. So the question of what the first "V" stands for is a valid one. If it's really "Verified", then they need to define what that means. Seems to me they may only mean that the voter marked the ballot and "verified" it. That's nice but it doesn't get the votes counted as cast.

As far as the lever business, in 2007, the Legislature changed the law to remove any ambiguity. Now it says levers shall be replaced...someday. So what's the rush? And why is NYVV still saying they are illegal, even after the law was changed specifically to clarify the Legislature's intent?

The most prudent path, short of HCPB or levers forever, would seem to be open-source op scan, owned and operated by the citizens and government of the State of NY in the usual bi-/multi-partisan manner, with a real statistical audit so we don't have to trust that software either. If that takes another year or 2, or 3, so what? The Legislature and the Board of Elections have both said there's no hurry. The only ones in a rush are the DoJ, NYVV and of course, the vendors.

So why kowtow to the DoJ when the law is on our side if anyone would bother to go to court and argue it?

Innuendo aside, I said the jury's still out. Let's see what happens if nothing can be certified without changing existing hard-fought-for laws and regulations now that scanners are on the table.
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  -Why doesn't Bo Lipari get a job selling Optical Scan? Wilms  Jan-21-08 04:10 PM   #0 
  - WTF are you talking about? New York...  TreasonousBastard   Jan-21-08 04:51 PM   #1 
  - "...they're great-- easy to use and error/fraud free."  Wilms   Jan-21-08 05:22 PM   #2 
     - To our county BoE it is very clear that...  TreasonousBastard   Jan-21-08 05:50 PM   #3 
     - So what scanner, if any, do you have in mind?  Wilms   Jan-21-08 05:57 PM   #4 
        - I don't have any in mind because...  TreasonousBastard   Jan-21-08 06:07 PM   #5 
           - DRE's are not off the table.  Wilms   Jan-21-08 07:30 PM   #6 
              - I wouldn't be surprised if a few places...  TreasonousBastard   Jan-21-08 08:25 PM   #7 
     - levers verses HCPB verses optical scan  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-27-08 01:11 AM   #12 
        - Links please.  Wilms   Jan-27-08 10:05 AM   #13 
        - Here's a "higher cost" story.  Wilms   Jan-27-08 02:21 PM   #15 
        - Smoke em while you got em, the vote count scam is over  kster   Mar-29-08 03:08 AM   #44 
  - Well, at least he's not pushing LHS and Diebold and calling it "the Accuvote"  Bill Bored   Jan-22-08 01:03 AM   #8 
  - I've found out that's an edited version not including it.  Wilms   Jan-26-08 08:31 PM   #9 
     - He's a tireless advocate against DREs. That's not a bad thing.  Bill Bored   Jan-26-08 11:13 PM   #10 
  - Why?  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-27-08 01:06 AM   #11 
  - As I've said before...  Wilms   Jan-27-08 10:07 AM   #14 
  - Opscans use electronic ballots too (they image the paper and count THAT IMAGE)  Land Shark   Jan-27-08 02:57 PM   #16 
  - We owe Bo Lipari, NYVV and activists across the state a big debt of gratitude  bernesebernese   Jan-28-08 02:34 PM   #17 
  - oh, they've been insulted too...  OnTheOtherHand   Jan-28-08 04:40 PM   #18 
  - Largely what OTOH said.  Wilms   Jan-28-08 10:32 PM   #19 
     - the OP makes a personal attack on Bo  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-28-08 10:38 PM   #20 
     - Obviously, I disagree.  Wilms   Jan-28-08 10:41 PM   #21 
        - DU - the Anti Activists and The Election Reform Forum  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-28-08 10:53 PM   #22 
        - What? It's OK as long as it's an activist who YOU think is headed in a wrong direction?  Wilms   Jan-28-08 11:17 PM   #23 
        - It's all relative.  btmlndfrmr   Jan-28-08 11:19 PM   #24 
        - proof?  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-29-08 01:31 PM   #30 
           - The jury's still out. See post #29. nt  Bill Bored   Jan-29-08 09:32 PM   #31 
           - You're listening right past me.  Wilms   Jan-29-08 11:45 PM   #32 
     - well, you know...  OnTheOtherHand   Jan-29-08 05:13 AM   #25 
        - No. It isn't pleasant at all.  Wilms   Jan-29-08 09:59 AM   #26 
           - The reason the Liberty DRE was NOT certified is that the machine is NOT ACCESSIBLE enough  Bill Bored   Jan-29-08 12:12 PM   #27 
           - eh  OnTheOtherHand   Jan-29-08 12:12 PM   #28 
              - NY election law requires cut-and-drop VVPATs. They are just as auditiable  Bill Bored   Jan-29-08 12:55 PM   #29 
              - whoa  OnTheOtherHand   Jan-30-08 07:23 AM   #35 
                 - The point is that somehow election officials have the idea that a 3% audit  Bill Bored   Jan-30-08 10:38 PM   #37 
              - Feh.  Wilms   Jan-29-08 11:59 PM   #33 
                 - I think there is more to it  OnTheOtherHand   Jan-30-08 05:49 AM   #34 
                    - Did I say the BoE was/is united?  Wilms   Jan-30-08 09:18 PM   #36 
                    - The Election Commissioners Assn. of the State of NY wanted to keep levers  Bill Bored   Jan-30-08 10:43 PM   #38 
  - Kick  Wilms   Mar-27-08 09:10 PM   #39 
  - DRE and Optiscans are equally evil? Not true  Einsteinia   Mar-28-08 06:15 PM   #40 
  - But no one is using scanners the way you suggest Einsteinia.  Bill Bored   Mar-29-08 12:52 AM   #41 
     - "and not a lot of paper ballots either" walk softly Bill  kster   Mar-29-08 01:38 AM   #42 
     - I think once those scanners are in place, with all those paper ballots,  Bill Bored   Mar-29-08 03:00 AM   #43 
        - I think you are crazy to support  kster   Mar-29-08 03:28 AM   #45 
           - So we are going to spend millions on scanners so we can HAND COUNT? Get real!  Bill Bored   Mar-29-08 03:32 PM   #46 
              - For now, YES, let the crooks feel  kster   Mar-30-08 02:35 AM   #47 
     - True but NOT for long --Sign here:  Einsteinia   Mar-31-08 05:41 PM   #48 
        - Forced vote by mail? Where's that besides Oregon?  Bill Bored   Apr-02-08 11:52 PM   #49 
  - Optical Scan = Electronic Vote Counting n/t  Wilms   Apr-19-08 02:43 PM   #50 
  - It's nice that Liberty Election System is bailing on efforts to sell DREs to NYers  Wilms   Apr-24-08 10:21 PM   #51 
  - Optical scanners are the same as a "get away car"  kster   Apr-24-08 11:16 PM   #52 
     - If you insist on going off topic, I'd appreciated you not posting on my threads.  Wilms   Apr-26-08 06:05 PM   #53 
  - Still Lying: Bo Lipari's Deceit on Voice of the Voters  Wilms   Jul-03-08 08:47 AM   #54 
  - Bo's Response to Defamatory Comments  bolipari   Jul-05-08 02:59 PM   #55 
     - Perhaps I should have posted the clarification here, as well as the original thread.  Wilms   Jul-05-08 03:46 PM   #56 
  - Bo Lpari insults election advocates wary of his computerized vote counting contraptions.  Wilms   Apr-11-10 09:51 AM   #57 
     - well  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-11-10 05:05 PM   #58 
        - You can make those arguments but they are as likely to be untrue.  Wilms   Apr-11-10 06:30 PM   #59 
           - really?  OnTheOtherHand   Apr-12-10 08:06 AM   #60 
              - Oh I am absolutely sure it depends "who decides what counts as studying the issue closely".  Wilms   Apr-12-10 10:45 AM   #61 
                 - for what it is worth  WillYourVoteBCounted   Apr-12-10 10:58 AM   #62 
                    - If the debate was centered on FACTS, that would be the case.  Wilms   Apr-12-10 11:07 AM   #63 
                    - This post might provide some insight into the situation in NY:  Bill Bored   Apr-13-10 01:59 PM   #64 
 

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