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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. OK
Let's take, for the sake of argument, DC in 2004. Kerry one the EC vote. If we want to ensure that Bush was not the victim of pro-Kerry fraud, we postulate that to overturn a true Bush win, the pro-Kerry fraudsters would have had to have stolen about 180,000 votes. To do this, they would have had to have stolen votes in a large number of precincts. An audit sample size needs to be large enough to detect a small percentage of corrupt precincts with a high degree of confidence. So, clearly, if the minimum proportion of corrupt precincts required to overturn the vote is large (as in a state with a large official margin for one candidate) then for a given degree of confidence, the sample size needs to be smaller than in a state where the margin was small, and a larger minimum proportion of corrupt precincts would have been required to overturn the result.

However, the other danger is that the fraudsters did not concentrate their fraud in a small number of precincts, but actually spread it thinly over a large number. This is why, to my mind, audit protocols that require an full recount of the audited sample of precincts (or machines) have the edge, because the tolerances in such a recount can be very tight. Not only that, but even if every single precinct or machine that was recounted came to within a vote or two of the initial count (and within the specified tolerance of the machine) then you could still apply a chi square or a sign test to find out whether the errors were significantly (to your required confidence level) more likely to benefit one candidate rather than the other. If not, you would suspect fraud, and start prosecutions, even if the size of the effect was insufficient to overturn the result.

Prosecutions should follow whatever the margin. The margin merely tells you how the minimum proportion of precincts required to overturn the race.
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  -New "Holt Bill": Fraudulent and Deceptive Use of term "Ballot" Land Shark  Feb-06-07 12:37 AM   #0 
  - "Fradulent paper record dressed up as a ballot"  kpete   Feb-06-07 12:48 AM   #1 
  - Why the *uck wasn't electoral reform part of the 'first 100hrs'? n/t  bananarepublican   Feb-06-07 12:57 AM   #2 
     - good question. But actually the Congress has so much to learn that it's not READY  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 01:05 AM   #3 
        - But....what happened to all the Info from the Conyers Basement Hearings and  KoKo01   Feb-06-07 03:10 PM   #59 
           - People are being lectured that any major pro-public oversight is not "realistic"  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 09:41 PM   #62 
  - K&R  GuvWurld   Feb-06-07 01:05 AM   #4 
  - Just come right out and say it, LS.  Wilms   Feb-06-07 01:06 AM   #5 
  - DRE's are a specific problem, Electronic Counts are the General Problem  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 01:30 AM   #6 
     - And I should have noted I appreciate what you're saying about bastardizing the ballot.  Wilms   Feb-06-07 01:44 AM   #7 
  - My reaction.  garybeck   Feb-06-07 01:49 AM   #8 
  - garybeck, the studies showing that people do not check their paper  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 02:24 AM   #11 
  - Well, since you ask.  garybeck   Feb-06-07 03:07 AM   #12 
     - Very nicely analysed  Febble   Feb-06-07 04:46 AM   #15 
        - Everyone assumes that the silly sign "INFORMS" the public of something, but  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 09:00 AM   #19 
        - Well, thanks for the invite...  Febble   Feb-06-07 09:55 AM   #24 
        - C'mon Febble are you actually thingins this through? the more you cheat the smaller the sample size  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 10:10 AM   #26 
        - I'm not following:  Febble   Feb-06-07 10:33 AM   #27 
        - ok, garybeck writes favorably of Holt generally and you say that's a good analysis  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 10:52 AM   #29 
           - What I read, Land Shark, was your post  Febble   Feb-06-07 11:03 AM   #32 
           - WARNING: DO NOT READ THIS MESSAGE whatever you do.  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 11:21 AM   #36 
              - That's silly  Febble   Feb-06-07 11:39 AM   #41 
                 - As a practical matter, using objective methods of counting, the paper will rarely count  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 12:04 PM   #45 
                    - Perception:  Febble   Feb-06-07 12:10 PM   #48 
                       - well i took back the highlighted comment before I saw this  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 01:12 PM   #53 
                          - Well, I'm not going to do that  Febble   Feb-06-07 01:26 PM   #56 
                             - Febble when I am writing to you or thinking of you I am always smiling  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 09:51 PM   #63 
                                - Like this?  Febble   Feb-07-07 04:21 AM   #64 
                                   - Tis True, the biggest smiles are always for the camera (or the cameraMAN!)  Land Shark   Feb-07-07 10:36 PM   #67 
           - And of course, I also read garybeck's post  Febble   Feb-06-07 11:05 AM   #33 
              - it's not a "with us vs against us" analysis. Just pointing out that  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 11:35 AM   #39 
                 - I did NOT defend  Febble   Feb-06-07 11:54 AM   #43 
                 - Deleted message  Name removed   Feb-06-07 01:05 PM   #52 
        - OK  Febble   Feb-06-07 10:57 AM   #31 
        - I don't think a DRE will ever work.  eomer   Feb-06-07 12:09 PM   #47 
           - I'd be happy with that  Febble   Feb-06-07 12:11 PM   #49 
        - well many I've talked to seem to agree  garybeck   Feb-06-07 10:54 AM   #30 
           - a "basis" for doing something doesn't mean it's justified in this particular expression  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 11:11 AM   #34 
              - c'mon  garybeck   Feb-06-07 11:33 AM   #38 
                 - elections are mutlidisciplinary and the facts that make this winning% principle mostly wrong  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 11:49 AM   #42 
                    - Just because one law  Febble   Feb-06-07 12:03 PM   #44 
        - clarifying the term "BALLOT"  garybeck   Feb-06-07 10:43 AM   #28 
           - I take your point  Febble   Feb-06-07 11:14 AM   #35 
              - well, we agree on the following quote, and to me it ends the important part of the argument  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 11:27 AM   #37 
                 - I will always be seriously bothered  Febble   Feb-06-07 12:05 PM   #46 
                    - For the nth time, WHO should perform the audits? Govt audits itself???  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 01:20 PM   #54 
                       - Well, who do you suggest conduct HCBPs?  Febble   Feb-06-07 01:31 PM   #57 
                          - well Holt II provides that entirely APPOINTED people do it, not elected  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 03:18 PM   #60 
  - The link to the bill  Land Shark   Feb-07-07 10:51 AM   #65 
  - Holt is a grown man but he does not get it,  kster   Feb-06-07 01:55 AM   #9 
  - Ugh!!!  nicknameless   Feb-06-07 01:57 AM   #10 
  - Land Shark:  Febble   Feb-06-07 03:26 AM   #13 
  - So you do NOT think that people EXPECT a ballot to be counted the FIRST TIME???  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 09:43 AM   #23 
     - No, it's not a "technical" argument at all  Febble   Feb-06-07 10:03 AM   #25 
  - Good grief!! What is it about crooked elections that our  loudsue   Feb-06-07 03:44 AM   #14 
  - OK, Everyone --- Here's His Form ---- Attack  Senator   Feb-06-07 05:48 AM   #16 
  - Good questions. And WHY does Holt think that unless we follow the Arthur Anderson rule  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 09:26 AM   #22 
  - You're right. It's not a ballot  rock   Feb-06-07 06:19 AM   #17 
  - They do in fairness propose some legal fiction language to partly address the chaos  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 09:15 AM   #20 
  - Two ballots?  BeFree   Feb-06-07 12:46 PM   #51 
  - Why did I just get an earworm of  stellanoir   Feb-06-07 07:23 AM   #18 
  - Instead of "I Voted Electronically" stickers we will need a new sticker that says  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 09:21 AM   #21 
  - the correct language would be:  garybeck   Feb-06-07 11:35 AM   #40 
  - Cool. n/t  Febble   Feb-06-07 12:12 PM   #50 
  - "...in the case of an audit or recount but not if the race is close and an automatic recount  Land Shark   Feb-06-07 01:24 PM   #55 
     - You will have to explain your problem  Febble   Feb-06-07 01:34 PM   #58 
  - Thank you.  SimpleTrend   Feb-06-07 08:28 PM   #61 
  - Hand Counted Paper Ballots NOW! Nothing more and Nothing less! nt  In Truth We Trust   Feb-07-07 12:11 PM   #66 
  - Kick.(nt)  Kurovski   Feb-10-07 02:15 AM   #68 
 

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