Febble
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Tue Feb-06-07 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #26 |
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Let's take, for the sake of argument, DC in 2004. Kerry one the EC vote. If we want to ensure that Bush was not the victim of pro-Kerry fraud, we postulate that to overturn a true Bush win, the pro-Kerry fraudsters would have had to have stolen about 180,000 votes. To do this, they would have had to have stolen votes in a large number of precincts. An audit sample size needs to be large enough to detect a small percentage of corrupt precincts with a high degree of confidence. So, clearly, if the minimum proportion of corrupt precincts required to overturn the vote is large (as in a state with a large official margin for one candidate) then for a given degree of confidence, the sample size needs to be smaller than in a state where the margin was small, and a larger minimum proportion of corrupt precincts would have been required to overturn the result.
However, the other danger is that the fraudsters did not concentrate their fraud in a small number of precincts, but actually spread it thinly over a large number. This is why, to my mind, audit protocols that require an full recount of the audited sample of precincts (or machines) have the edge, because the tolerances in such a recount can be very tight. Not only that, but even if every single precinct or machine that was recounted came to within a vote or two of the initial count (and within the specified tolerance of the machine) then you could still apply a chi square or a sign test to find out whether the errors were significantly (to your required confidence level) more likely to benefit one candidate rather than the other. If not, you would suspect fraud, and start prosecutions, even if the size of the effect was insufficient to overturn the result.
Prosecutions should follow whatever the margin. The margin merely tells you how the minimum proportion of precincts required to overturn the race.
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| -New "Holt Bill": Fraudulent and Deceptive Use of term "Ballot" |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 12:37 AM |
#0 |
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"Fradulent paper record dressed up as a ballot" |
kpete |
Feb-06-07 12:48 AM |
#1 |
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Why the *uck wasn't electoral reform part of the 'first 100hrs'? n/t |
bananarepublican |
Feb-06-07 12:57 AM |
#2 |
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good question. But actually the Congress has so much to learn that it's not READY |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 01:05 AM |
#3 |
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But....what happened to all the Info from the Conyers Basement Hearings and |
KoKo01 |
Feb-06-07 03:10 PM |
#59 |
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People are being lectured that any major pro-public oversight is not "realistic" |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 09:41 PM |
#62 |
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K&R |
GuvWurld |
Feb-06-07 01:05 AM |
#4 |
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Just come right out and say it, LS. |
Wilms |
Feb-06-07 01:06 AM |
#5 |
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DRE's are a specific problem, Electronic Counts are the General Problem |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 01:30 AM |
#6 |
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And I should have noted I appreciate what you're saying about bastardizing the ballot. |
Wilms |
Feb-06-07 01:44 AM |
#7 |
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My reaction. |
garybeck |
Feb-06-07 01:49 AM |
#8 |
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garybeck, the studies showing that people do not check their paper |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 02:24 AM |
#11 |
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Well, since you ask. |
garybeck |
Feb-06-07 03:07 AM |
#12 |
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Very nicely analysed |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 04:46 AM |
#15 |
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Everyone assumes that the silly sign "INFORMS" the public of something, but |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 09:00 AM |
#19 |
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Well, thanks for the invite... |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 09:55 AM |
#24 |
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C'mon Febble are you actually thingins this through? the more you cheat the smaller the sample size |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 10:10 AM |
#26 |
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I'm not following: |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 10:33 AM |
#27 |
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ok, garybeck writes favorably of Holt generally and you say that's a good analysis |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 10:52 AM |
#29 |
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What I read, Land Shark, was your post |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 11:03 AM |
#32 |
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WARNING: DO NOT READ THIS MESSAGE whatever you do. |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 11:21 AM |
#36 |
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That's silly |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 11:39 AM |
#41 |
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As a practical matter, using objective methods of counting, the paper will rarely count |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 12:04 PM |
#45 |
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Perception: |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 12:10 PM |
#48 |
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well i took back the highlighted comment before I saw this |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 01:12 PM |
#53 |
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Well, I'm not going to do that |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 01:26 PM |
#56 |
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Febble when I am writing to you or thinking of you I am always smiling |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 09:51 PM |
#63 |
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Like this? |
Febble |
Feb-07-07 04:21 AM |
#64 |
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Tis True, the biggest smiles are always for the camera (or the cameraMAN!) |
Land Shark |
Feb-07-07 10:36 PM |
#67 |
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And of course, I also read garybeck's post |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 11:05 AM |
#33 |
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it's not a "with us vs against us" analysis. Just pointing out that |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 11:35 AM |
#39 |
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I did NOT defend |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 11:54 AM |
#43 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Feb-06-07 01:05 PM |
#52 |
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OK |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 10:57 AM |
#31 |
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I don't think a DRE will ever work. |
eomer |
Feb-06-07 12:09 PM |
#47 |
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I'd be happy with that |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 12:11 PM |
#49 |
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well many I've talked to seem to agree |
garybeck |
Feb-06-07 10:54 AM |
#30 |
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a "basis" for doing something doesn't mean it's justified in this particular expression |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 11:11 AM |
#34 |
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c'mon |
garybeck |
Feb-06-07 11:33 AM |
#38 |
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elections are mutlidisciplinary and the facts that make this winning% principle mostly wrong |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 11:49 AM |
#42 |
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Just because one law |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 12:03 PM |
#44 |
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clarifying the term "BALLOT" |
garybeck |
Feb-06-07 10:43 AM |
#28 |
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I take your point |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 11:14 AM |
#35 |
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well, we agree on the following quote, and to me it ends the important part of the argument |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 11:27 AM |
#37 |
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I will always be seriously bothered |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 12:05 PM |
#46 |
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For the nth time, WHO should perform the audits? Govt audits itself??? |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 01:20 PM |
#54 |
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Well, who do you suggest conduct HCBPs? |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 01:31 PM |
#57 |
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well Holt II provides that entirely APPOINTED people do it, not elected |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 03:18 PM |
#60 |
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The link to the bill |
Land Shark |
Feb-07-07 10:51 AM |
#65 |
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Holt is a grown man but he does not get it, |
kster |
Feb-06-07 01:55 AM |
#9 |
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Ugh!!! |
nicknameless |
Feb-06-07 01:57 AM |
#10 |
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Land Shark: |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 03:26 AM |
#13 |
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So you do NOT think that people EXPECT a ballot to be counted the FIRST TIME??? |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 09:43 AM |
#23 |
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No, it's not a "technical" argument at all |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 10:03 AM |
#25 |
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Good grief!! What is it about crooked elections that our |
loudsue |
Feb-06-07 03:44 AM |
#14 |
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OK, Everyone --- Here's His Form ---- Attack |
Senator |
Feb-06-07 05:48 AM |
#16 |
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Good questions. And WHY does Holt think that unless we follow the Arthur Anderson rule |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 09:26 AM |
#22 |
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You're right. It's not a ballot |
rock |
Feb-06-07 06:19 AM |
#17 |
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They do in fairness propose some legal fiction language to partly address the chaos |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 09:15 AM |
#20 |
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Two ballots? |
BeFree |
Feb-06-07 12:46 PM |
#51 |
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Why did I just get an earworm of |
stellanoir |
Feb-06-07 07:23 AM |
#18 |
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Instead of "I Voted Electronically" stickers we will need a new sticker that says |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 09:21 AM |
#21 |
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the correct language would be: |
garybeck |
Feb-06-07 11:35 AM |
#40 |
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Cool. n/t |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 12:12 PM |
#50 |
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"...in the case of an audit or recount but not if the race is close and an automatic recount |
Land Shark |
Feb-06-07 01:24 PM |
#55 |
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You will have to explain your problem |
Febble |
Feb-06-07 01:34 PM |
#58 |
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Thank you. |
SimpleTrend |
Feb-06-07 08:28 PM |
#61 |
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Hand Counted Paper Ballots NOW! Nothing more and Nothing less! nt |
In Truth We Trust |
Feb-07-07 12:11 PM |
#66 |
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Kick.(nt) |
Kurovski |
Feb-10-07 02:15 AM |
#68 |