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Reply #84: Scotland quit hand counting ballots this May [View All]

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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. Scotland quit hand counting ballots this May
When jurisdictions make voting more complicated, they encourage computerized tabulation.

Scotland switched to optical scan voting this year :(

This followed the decision to use a form of ranked choice voting this year, and also combine two contests on their ballot. They decided that due to the new complexity of the ballot and ballot counting (Single Transferable Vote requires an algorithm) that they needed computerized vote counting. It was a disaster.

'Serious technical failures' at polls

Published: May 5 2007 03:00

Officials yesterday acknowledged "serious technical failures" in the counting of votes for the Scottish elections as they announced a formal inquiry amid fears that as many as
100,000 ballot papers had been unwittingly spoilt by bemused voters.

The biggest poll debacle in the history of British democracy sees up to one in ten votes thrown out

"SCOTLAND'S status as a modern democracy was dealt a grievous blow yesterday by a scandal in which up to one in ten votes in the Holyrood election were thrown in the bin uncounted.

In a development that could bring into question the legitimacy of the Scottish Parliament poll, as many as 100,000 ballot papers were spoiled. That averages out as one in 20 votes but in some seats a tenth of the papers were spoiled...."

Scotland rejected ballots now total 187,578 - BBC says worse than Fl
Wednesday, 16 May 2007,

Figures show that about 45,700 local government votes were rejected compared to 140,000 in the Holyrood poll.

The figures boost critics' claims that the parliament ballot paper confused voters.

They say having both the constituency and list MSP votes on the same sheet led to the rise in spoilt ballots.

I don't think anyone here opposes hand counting the ballots.

In places like Wisconsin, or in small townships in New Hampshire, they are still hand counting the ballots. NH had only 12 contests on the ballot on Nov 2004.
Good luck convincing politicians and supporters nationwide to reduce ballot size.

Voting machines were implemented to address complexity, but also because it was thought they would decrease fraud associated with HCPB.

If you want HCPB, try working for it at a local level and see how it goes, and if successful maybe neighboring jurisdictions will be convinced.
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  -What Hand Counting Paper Ballots Looks Like in Scotland. nicknameless  Nov-05-06 05:22 PM   #0 
  - And By Comparison - Hacking Democracy By HBO  lostnotforgotten   Nov-05-06 05:26 PM   #1 
  - Kick for Democracy in  zidzi   Nov-05-06 05:29 PM   #2 
  - kick.nt  kster   Jan-23-07 06:02 PM   #56 
     - Glad you brought this up again. Cuz maybe  troubleinwinter   Jan-23-07 06:22 PM   #57 
        - Pay the people, heres what it cost us when we stopped  kster   Jan-23-07 06:42 PM   #58 
        - Thank you.  troubleinwinter   Jan-23-07 07:39 PM   #59 
           - It would be best to start with honesty, meaning ALL  kster   Jan-23-07 08:20 PM   #60 
              - While working together toward the same goal of verifiable elections  troubleinwinter   Jan-23-07 10:09 PM   #61 
                 - Telling the people the truth, is not trying to convince them  kster   Jan-23-07 11:00 PM   #62 
                    - "Here is our Hand Counted Paper Ballot Implementation Strategy 2007"  troubleinwinter   Jan-23-07 11:23 PM   #63 
                    - Implemetation  kster   Jan-24-07 12:06 AM   #65 
                       - Interesting.  troubleinwinter   Jan-24-07 01:33 AM   #66 
                          - When you said  kster   Jan-24-07 02:25 AM   #67 
                             - Well, OK. I tried again.  troubleinwinter   Jan-24-07 02:43 AM   #68 
                                - Don't be sorry, thats just silly  kster   Jan-24-07 03:00 AM   #69 
                                   - SCOTLAND GAVE UP HAND COUNTED BALLOTS IN 2007  WillYourVoteBCounted   Oct-29-08 11:40 PM   #104 
                                      - IF I SAY IT THIS WAY WILL IT MAKE YOU HAPPY...  kster   Oct-30-08 02:16 AM   #105 
                    - I should have thought of that!  troubleinwinter   Jan-23-07 11:32 PM   #64 
        - troubleinwinter, can you provide a better link  sonias   Mar-09-07 09:22 PM   #72 
  - Ummm, it's like that in the whole of the UK  Greeby   Nov-05-06 05:34 PM   #3 
  - I'm jealous.  nicknameless   Nov-05-06 05:46 PM   #6 
  - Parliament in this country, particularly among the two main parties  Greeby   Nov-05-06 06:02 PM   #8 
     - What a disgrace. I'm very sorry to hear that.  nicknameless   Nov-05-06 06:13 PM   #11 
        - But you can change that  Greeby   Nov-05-06 07:21 PM   #18 
           - We can *try* to change it.  nicknameless   Nov-05-06 08:09 PM   #20 
  - Here in the UK in 2007 British votes were counted by ES&S...  Votergater   Feb-12-08 12:34 PM   #101 
  - As I heard onthe radio this AM...If the country WANTED to solve the voting  BrklynLiberal   Nov-05-06 05:35 PM   #4 
  - Exactly.  nicknameless   Nov-05-06 05:42 PM   #5 
  - In Canada.. we take the boxes and count them right out in the open...  applegrove   Nov-05-06 05:57 PM   #7 
  - Counting ballots is a civic responsibility. Like jury duty.  aquart   Nov-05-06 06:04 PM   #9 
  - Voting too is a civic duty.  applegrove   Nov-05-06 07:19 PM   #17 
  - So the count would take longer.  nicknameless   Nov-05-06 06:05 PM   #10 
  - Actually, we would not need additional elections to decide ...  BruceMcF   Nov-05-06 06:33 PM   #13 
  - No machines should be allowed -- for voting or counting.  nicknameless   Nov-05-06 06:39 PM   #14 
  - Kick. (nt)  Kurovski   Feb-11-08 12:41 PM   #100 
  - But, when do you vote for your ...  BruceMcF   Nov-05-06 06:28 PM   #12 
  - Judges are appointed by government. Local officials run their own  applegrove   Nov-06-06 01:10 PM   #30 
  - So how do you run and count your provincial and local elections??  demodonkey   Dec-07-06 10:53 AM   #40 
  - Actually about 50 times more complicated  sonias   Mar-09-07 09:55 PM   #73 
  - I love Scotland  garthranzz   Nov-05-06 07:07 PM   #15 
  - Don't forget Mr. Boycott himself! He was a Scot too I believe. HCPB NOW!  In Truth We Trust   Nov-06-06 07:24 AM   #26 
  - Hand count the ballots?  RC   Nov-05-06 07:13 PM   #16 
  - Heres how  kster   Nov-05-06 09:26 PM   #23 
  - Precisely. Apparently some people feel speed is more important than a transparent count!  kiteinthewind   Jun-11-07 09:16 PM   #77 
  - How sad for America and Americans nm  texpatriot2004   Nov-05-06 07:55 PM   #19 
  - Its great to see those pics online again  kster   Nov-05-06 08:54 PM   #21 
  - Thank you for finding the original UK pics.  nicknameless   Nov-05-06 08:58 PM   #22 
  - kick  FernBell   Nov-06-06 04:42 AM   #24 
  - K&R Hand Counted Paper Ballots NOW! DEMOCRACY NOW!!! OR Fascism FOREVER.  In Truth We Trust   Nov-06-06 07:18 AM   #25 
  - Canada's regional elections do the same type of manual counting  AikidoSoul   Nov-06-06 09:32 AM   #27 
  - It could take months if you are talking a California or Illinois Ballot  onthebench   Nov-09-06 12:25 PM   #35 
  - K&R!  Kurovski   Nov-06-06 10:15 AM   #28 
  - Kick this baby! Somebody really does understand what we gotta do!  AikidoSoul   Nov-06-06 12:00 PM   #29 
  - kick..nt  kster   Nov-08-06 10:40 AM   #31 
  - Kick! What real democracy looks like.  nicknameless   Nov-09-06 02:31 AM   #32 
  - Yes! Convert them into defibrillators!  diva77   Nov-09-06 02:41 AM   #33 
     - True that.  nicknameless   Nov-09-06 03:48 AM   #34 
  - kick-n-it...............nt  kster   Dec-04-06 01:10 PM   #36 
  - Kicked but too late to recommend, n/t  Land Shark   Dec-06-06 12:59 PM   #37 
  - Yeah, I like those pictures too  Febble   Dec-06-06 03:11 PM   #38 
  - there is only one contest on the ballot  WillYourVoteBCounted   Dec-06-06 07:58 PM   #39 
  - November 2006 sample ballots  troubleinwinter   Dec-07-06 02:14 PM   #41 
  - "Dingwall Count", Scotland  troubleinwinter   Dec-07-06 03:18 PM   #42 
  - In counting the apparent 'vote counters' in the OP photo  troubleinwinter   Dec-07-06 04:31 PM   #43 
     - Our constituencies  Febble   Dec-07-06 05:00 PM   #44 
        - OK.  troubleinwinter   Dec-07-06 05:32 PM   #45 
           - BBC article here might be useful:  Febble   Dec-08-06 01:45 AM   #46 
           - Forgot to say that Scotland is moving towards optical scanning  Febble   Dec-08-06 02:02 AM   #47 
              - How did they catch the attempted fraud?  kster   Dec-09-06 12:18 AM   #48 
              - Red-handed:  Febble   Dec-09-06 03:13 AM   #49 
              - BTW, HCPB were used in Ukraine in 2004:  Febble   Dec-09-06 03:45 AM   #50 
                 - Would think that massive fraud with paper/HCPB would be  Cookie wookie   Jun-30-07 11:38 AM   #86 
              - Yes, sorry folks, Scotland's going electronic in 2007...  Votergater   Dec-29-06 12:45 PM   #54 
                 - Counting on a machine? Confidence starts slipping  kster   Dec-29-06 01:19 PM   #55 
  - HAND COUNTED paper ballots YES! Sourcecode anywhere-NO!  In Truth We Trust   Dec-09-06 06:07 PM   #51 
  - Kick.nt  kster   Dec-28-06 02:53 PM   #52 
  - One more K...........nt  kster   Dec-29-06 12:55 AM   #53 
  - kick.nt  kster   Feb-13-07 10:40 AM   #70 
  - kick.nt  kster   Mar-09-07 09:37 AM   #71 
  - Och !! Ain' it looks  galloglas   Mar-10-07 01:10 AM   #74 
  - Beautiful sight, indeed! nt  kiteinthewind   Mar-10-07 02:14 PM   #75 
  - KR.nt  kster   Jun-11-07 08:52 PM   #76 
  - I'm so glad you kicked this so that you have another chance at ANSWERING THIS QUESTION:  troubleinwinter   Jun-11-07 10:44 PM   #78 
     - Can you ask me this question in another thread please.nt  kster   Jun-11-07 10:48 PM   #79 
        - I don't see why.  troubleinwinter   Jun-11-07 11:24 PM   #80 
           - OK, Here ya go, its simple easy and could Be done immediately  kster   Jun-11-07 11:54 PM   #81 
              - Kucinich's HR6200 died with the last congress.  troubleinwinter   Jun-12-07 09:23 AM   #83 
              - Scotland quit hand counting ballots this May  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jun-12-07 02:17 PM   #84 
  - KRnt  kster   Jun-12-07 03:58 AM   #82 
  - Kick For Kucinich..........nt  kster   Jun-28-07 08:56 PM   #85 
  - KICK  kster   Jul-11-07 03:44 AM   #87 
     - Where IS nicknameless?  Kurovski   Jul-11-07 03:46 AM   #88 
        - I'm sure Nicknameless will show up eventually.nt  kster   Aug-01-07 12:17 AM   #89 
  - RIP Nicknameless  kster   Aug-09-07 10:29 PM   #90 
  - Kick for my friend Nancy.  sfexpat2000   Aug-09-07 11:06 PM   #91 
  - Our Friend was a CLASS ACT, May she (Nicknameless) Rest In Peace  kster   Aug-10-07 01:24 AM   #92 
  - goodbye nicknameless  althecat   Aug-10-07 06:29 AM   #93 
  - RIP  btmlndfrmr   Aug-10-07 11:50 AM   #94 
  - I can imagine how loved Nancy is by those who knew her outside of DU.  Kurovski   Aug-10-07 04:37 PM   #95 
  - KICK.NT  kster   Dec-18-07 12:16 AM   #96 
  - Scotland rejected ballots now total 187,578...worse than Florida  WillYourVoteBCounted   Dec-20-07 01:28 AM   #97 
  - Kick.nt  kster   Jan-26-08 11:40 PM   #98 
  - Scottland uses Optical scan  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jan-27-08 05:46 PM   #99 
  - KICK ....NT  kster   Jul-17-08 11:15 PM   #102 
     - kick.nt  kster   Oct-29-08 09:41 PM   #103 
        - kick.nt  kster   Dec-16-08 11:00 PM   #106 
           - SCOTLAND QUIT HAND COUNTING MAY 2007  WillYourVoteBCounted   Dec-18-08 04:44 PM   #107 

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