Febble
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Mon Aug-07-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
| 24. No, the problem with metaphor |
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is that it doesn't necessarily tell you anything. Saying HR550 is bad because it involves knee-bends tells me zilch.
So thanks for the translation (I think).
But I'm not sure I accept your premise/frame. HR550 would seem to clarify, not create or change, the nature of the vote (to which American citizens have a right). It rules that "ballot" must be a voter-verified, manually recountable piece of paper, and cannot be mere "electrons" as you so eloquently put it elsewhere. Not only that, but it declares that elections must be subject to random manual audit. In other words, the bill makes it it illegal to elect a winner unless there has been a rather powerful check as to whether the election was actually conducted fairly, or to conduct an election in which that check, or other still more powerful checks, cannot be conducted.
Are you saying that legislation cannot do this? If so, why not?
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| -HR550 and Secret Software Code |
garybeck |
Aug-07-06 01:44 AM |
#0 |
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This hands vendors big fat lawsuits for constitutional "takings" |
Land Shark |
Aug-07-06 02:29 AM |
#1 |
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Two questions: |
Bill Bored |
Aug-07-06 03:33 AM |
#2 |
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"Why can't we do both?" |
Febble |
Aug-07-06 09:31 AM |
#6 |
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sure, it's possible to do both, the question is one of strategy and |
Land Shark |
Aug-07-06 12:38 PM |
#11 |
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Well, it's back to the metaphor problem.... |
Febble |
Aug-07-06 01:52 PM |
#14 |
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the only problem with metaphor is that you don't like them |
Land Shark |
Aug-07-06 03:07 PM |
#18 |
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No, the problem with metaphor |
Febble |
Aug-07-06 04:43 PM |
#24 |
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And isn't litigation being on bended knee to the courts? |
Bill Bored |
Aug-08-06 12:35 AM |
#36 |
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Sometimes that word is used, but nobody "prays" they DEMAND |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 12:48 AM |
#38 |
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we did both in NC, a state law and we had to go to court |
WillYourVoteBCounted |
Aug-07-06 06:45 PM |
#30 |
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But it also mandates |
Febble |
Aug-07-06 01:55 PM |
#15 |
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Exactly |
Kelvin Mace |
Aug-08-06 12:17 PM |
#50 |
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Isn't it interesting that it must be private companies that produce |
4MoronicYears |
Aug-07-06 05:37 AM |
#3 |
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What government do you trust "to keep elections a GOVERNMENT RUN OPERATION |
Kip Humphrey |
Aug-07-06 06:23 AM |
#4 |
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My local jurisdiction has been doing a fine job |
Warren Stupidity |
Aug-07-06 07:02 AM |
#5 |
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it's not about trust, it's about checks and balances |
Land Shark |
Aug-07-06 12:44 PM |
#12 |
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So if elected bodies should not run elections |
Febble |
Aug-07-06 02:17 PM |
#17 |
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Not a very bright answer, Febble (or very bright question) |
Land Shark |
Aug-07-06 03:11 PM |
#19 |
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Well, one of us was being dim, said Rabbit, |
Febble |
Aug-07-06 04:19 PM |
#21 |
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big brained bear, please pay heed |
Land Shark |
Aug-07-06 04:37 PM |
#22 |
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Febble, you should start an OP reconciling these two things |
Land Shark |
Aug-07-06 04:39 PM |
#23 |
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It won't require much length, so here it is: |
Febble |
Aug-07-06 05:15 PM |
#27 |
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I have no idea |
Febble |
Aug-08-06 04:05 AM |
#41 |
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Exactly |
Febble |
Aug-07-06 04:49 PM |
#26 |
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So, in your view, Blackwell has and continues to act on his own? |
Kip Humphrey |
Aug-07-06 06:32 PM |
#29 |
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Huh? |
Febble |
Aug-08-06 01:57 AM |
#39 |
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The Congress is also among the class of govt servants |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 12:25 AM |
#34 |
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And that is why |
Febble |
Aug-08-06 02:14 AM |
#40 |
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False statement by Febble: HR 550 requires "paper ballot" |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 01:02 PM |
#58 |
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Not false, IMO, and I think this is an important point |
Febble |
Aug-08-06 02:14 PM |
#71 |
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You are pointing to the critical provision of the audits that's a problem |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 03:42 PM |
#75 |
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What you are describing is a recount |
Febble |
Aug-08-06 05:10 PM |
#79 |
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A partial recount is not unconstitutional under Gore v Bush. |
eomer |
Aug-09-06 06:41 AM |
#83 |
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California law currently includes a mandatory hand audit. |
eomer |
Aug-09-06 08:08 AM |
#84 |
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OMG! election laws are enacted by legislators! |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 08:54 AM |
#44 |
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People often forget, in their respect for the law, this conflict Interest |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 01:08 PM |
#59 |
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you seem to be changing directions in mid-air |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 01:37 PM |
#64 |
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what it means is the following: |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 01:48 PM |
#67 |
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an audit can't be independent if its scope is defined by statute? |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 02:18 PM |
#72 |
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They're already convinced: nobody can specify how they themselves |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 03:48 PM |
#76 |
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because.... |
Febble |
Aug-08-06 05:00 PM |
#78 |
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sigh |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 05:33 PM |
#80 |
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My local jurisdiction is us. |
Warren Stupidity |
Aug-07-06 06:55 PM |
#31 |
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trust as an end result of an observed process = OK, trust that substitutes |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 12:29 AM |
#35 |
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As that asshole reagan said: trust, but verify. nt. |
Warren Stupidity |
Aug-08-06 06:47 AM |
#43 |
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You can't let CROOKS make the rules, |
kster |
Aug-07-06 09:56 AM |
#7 |
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if you only accept the perfect bill, you will never get there |
garybeck |
Aug-07-06 11:42 AM |
#9 |
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Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien |
Febble |
Aug-07-06 12:28 PM |
#10 |
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it's not at all a question of a perfect bill vs a few steps forward |
Land Shark |
Aug-07-06 12:50 PM |
#13 |
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I'm not ignoring what you have said, I just disagree with it |
garybeck |
Aug-07-06 06:24 PM |
#28 |
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Well, thanks for the partial response / The future is right here in CA |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 12:36 AM |
#37 |
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you don't find the paper trail useful in CA? |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 09:47 AM |
#46 |
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I'm glad you acknowledge the risk here OTOH, that 's big of you |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 01:26 PM |
#61 |
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no, they don't |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 01:56 PM |
#68 |
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That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion as to legal matters |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 02:01 PM |
#70 |
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in CA, there is a paper trail to recount, in GA, there isn't. Am I wrong? |
garybeck |
Aug-08-06 10:15 AM |
#47 |
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you're missing it. Recounting a stuffed ballot box=stuffed recount too! |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 01:29 PM |
#62 |
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If what you say is true |
Kelvin Mace |
Aug-08-06 12:24 PM |
#53 |
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something I don't know about the NC law |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 12:27 PM |
#54 |
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Here you go: |
Kelvin Mace |
Aug-08-06 12:33 PM |
#55 |
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OK, so in fairness or in caution... |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 12:38 PM |
#56 |
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550 goes much further than 223 |
Kelvin Mace |
Aug-08-06 12:43 PM |
#57 |
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The time commitment you've made to attempting to discredit me is |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 01:36 PM |
#63 |
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oh, golly, do you really want to go down this road? |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 01:46 PM |
#66 |
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OK, then in the context of your critique here, your statement that |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 01:57 PM |
#69 |
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why do you think this is about "praise" and "support"? |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 02:23 PM |
#73 |
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it relates to whether one should respond in debate, or not. |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 03:35 PM |
#74 |
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these questions seem poor |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 04:46 PM |
#77 |
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otoh's first paragraph is basically correct |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 01:39 PM |
#65 |
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Wasting your breath with this crowd, Gary |
Kelvin Mace |
Aug-08-06 12:22 PM |
#52 |
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Rep Conyers cosponsors bill you say was MADE BY CROOKS |
WillYourVoteBCounted |
Aug-07-06 02:05 PM |
#16 |
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I used to support it, but once you read it, and |
kster |
Aug-07-06 04:08 PM |
#20 |
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lots of people "of integrity" support misguided things |
Land Shark |
Aug-07-06 04:43 PM |
#25 |
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how is Rush Holt a crook? n/t |
garybeck |
Aug-07-06 08:25 PM |
#32 |
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Garybeck, These people are not ON YOUR SIDE |
kster |
Aug-07-06 11:19 PM |
#33 |
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who are "These people" |
garybeck |
Aug-08-06 10:17 AM |
#48 |
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I have an autographed copy of Conyers book |
kster |
Aug-08-06 06:46 PM |
#81 |
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Excuse me? |
Kelvin Mace |
Aug-08-06 12:21 PM |
#51 |
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Your excused........nt |
kster |
Aug-08-06 09:28 PM |
#82 |
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Totally agree garybeck. |
Stevepol |
Aug-07-06 10:09 AM |
#8 |
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garybeck, I support HR550 because of the VVPT and audit... |
eomer |
Aug-08-06 06:21 AM |
#42 |
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you meant "I'm NOT so sure about the open source part," right? n/t |
OnTheOtherHand |
Aug-08-06 08:58 AM |
#45 |
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Yes, thanks. NOT so sure. |
eomer |
Aug-08-06 11:11 AM |
#49 |
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Linus Torvalds, another famous Finnlander somewhat relevant to elections |
Land Shark |
Aug-08-06 01:19 PM |
#60 |