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Reply #48: Don't mean to sound snarky but I don't care what the article says. [View All]

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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Don't mean to sound snarky but I don't care what the article says.
I prefer to reference the law.

http://www.fec.gov/hava/hava.htm


Show me.

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  -Hand-counted ballots mean loss of under/over votes. Kelvin Mace  Jul-22-06 12:49 PM   #0 
  - well, I can think of only 1 thing  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 12:59 PM   #1 
  - To clarify  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 01:38 PM   #5 
     - Okay, I think it's doable but ballot boxes should be transparent  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 02:41 PM   #23 
        - At the start of election day  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 02:49 PM   #25 
           - but I saw on tv where the seals were broken by poll workers  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 02:53 PM   #29 
           - Seals can be broken in the case of jams  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 04:55 PM   #54 
           - Numbers are also checked against the number of voters.  MH1   Jul-22-06 02:57 PM   #30 
              - oh, don't get me started on this one  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 03:00 PM   #32 
  - loss of under/over votes by hand counting is impossible - indeed one  papau   Jul-22-06 01:00 PM   #2 
  - Ah, but court cases are built on trying to discern voter intent  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 01:45 PM   #7 
     - True as to both bicker and as to OpScan - indeed the Florida switch off  papau   Jul-22-06 08:05 PM   #85 
  - At the risk of flames....  Febble   Jul-22-06 01:27 PM   #3 
  - Is this a big problem in your country,  kster   Jul-22-06 01:43 PM   #6 
  - You are proposing that 100,000,000+ ballots will be counted by hand  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 01:51 PM   #8 
  - fist fights, riots and law suits over voter "intent" on residual votes is  papau   Jul-22-06 08:26 PM   #88 
     - Canadian ballots are standardized  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 12:25 AM   #129 
  - Well, there's no such thing  Febble   Jul-22-06 02:01 PM   #10 
     - UK.gov ditches 'Big Brother'-style e-voting  kster   Jul-22-06 02:08 PM   #12 
     - Yeah, but I'm sure it will come.  Febble   Jul-22-06 02:22 PM   #15 
        - You mean like this  kster   Jul-22-06 02:25 PM   #16 
           - Please address the question  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 02:38 PM   #20 
           - I'm not sure of all the details, all I know is  kster   Jul-22-06 02:43 PM   #24 
           - Oh, that's bloody helpful  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 02:50 PM   #27 
              - Lighten up dude, its the weekend........nt  kster   Jul-22-06 02:53 PM   #28 
              - OK, even though its the weekend, heres a plan  kster   Jul-22-06 03:02 PM   #33 
                 - OK, you have a transparent box with  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 05:03 PM   #55 
           - use bank tellers like in Mexico  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 03:04 PM   #34 
           - College credit $ for students and or there parents  kster   Jul-22-06 03:13 PM   #35 
           - please, this sounds like a good idea but won't work  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 03:17 PM   #38 
           - OK, I'm with you, How about them tellers, prior to an  kster   Jul-22-06 03:28 PM   #40 
           - well, I think there could be a place for students  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 03:48 PM   #45 
           - Absolutely  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 05:10 PM   #57 
              - well, how is having private vendors for DREs  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 05:27 PM   #67 
                 - Oh, I agree with you, I am just preparing your for the arguments  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 05:36 PM   #68 
           - Have you ever actually WORKED in a precinct during an election?  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 05:07 PM   #56 
           - Yes, we use bank tellers too  Febble   Jul-22-06 03:14 PM   #37 
              - you mean the automated tellers (they're ATMs, here)  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 03:21 PM   #39 
              - Well, that's good  Febble   Jul-22-06 03:38 PM   #41 
                 - Thanks, our biggest weakness is our hodge podge elections  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 03:43 PM   #42 
                    - And then you have all the mis-info further clouding things.  Wilms   Jul-22-06 03:48 PM   #44 
                       - This article says HAVA requires electronic voting machines  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 03:54 PM   #47 
                          - Don't mean to sound snarky but I don't care what the article says.  Wilms   Jul-22-06 04:01 PM   #48 
                             - Wilms, I read the law  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 04:07 PM   #50 
                                - Read it carefully.  Wilms   Jul-22-06 04:12 PM   #51 
                                   - yes but it says the states are to recommend the machines  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 04:16 PM   #52 
                                   - Cite it. The wording is very important.  Wilms   Jul-22-06 05:26 PM   #66 
                                   - no it leaves it up to the states  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 06:04 PM   #73 
                                   - Where do you see electronic voting machines being mandated here?  Wilms   Jul-22-06 06:06 PM   #74 
                                   - You don't know what we have gone through in Maryland  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 06:14 PM   #75 
                                   - I agree that MD's is an extremely frustrating situation.  Wilms   Jul-22-06 06:22 PM   #76 
                                   - No, it just says get rid of your machines if you want our money  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 06:30 PM   #77 
                                   - Vote-PAD: The Simple Voting Device that May Save American Democracy  Wilms   Jul-22-06 06:33 PM   #78 
                                   - it's not going to happen, not enough moola for the vendors  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 06:34 PM   #79 
                                   - I'll accept your view of that, as that's not what I came by to discuss.  Wilms   Jul-22-06 06:38 PM   #80 
                                   - I understand your frustration but do you understand mine  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 06:44 PM   #81 
                                   - I don't have an answer.  Wilms   Jul-22-06 07:42 PM   #84 
                                   - Keep us posted  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 08:16 PM   #86 
                                   - Maryland, Early Voting and the Final Nail in Diebold's Coffin  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jul-23-06 04:17 PM   #111 
                                   - correction (I believe) -- if you accept HAVA moola, then you have to deep  diva77   Jul-22-06 05:55 PM   #70 
                                      - I think you're correct.  Wilms   Jul-22-06 05:57 PM   #71 
              - Bill counters, which  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 05:11 PM   #58 
                 - that's true and it is also made by Diebold  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 05:15 PM   #60 
                    - Yes, but the rub is  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 05:17 PM   #62 
                       - And it's a problem  Febble   Jul-22-06 05:20 PM   #63 
                       - well, then give me a randomly numbered ballot once you  MissWaverly   Jul-22-06 05:21 PM   #64 
                       - Thanks for that point about prattling.  Wilms   Jul-22-06 05:43 PM   #69 
                       - My comment about "prattlig"  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 12:07 AM   #123 
                       - Not only could be done -- has been done.  eomer   Jul-23-06 07:36 AM   #97 
                          - Where did I say it was prattling to talk about ballot secrecy?  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 12:13 AM   #125 
                             - Thanks for the clarification.  eomer   Jul-24-06 06:07 AM   #142 
                                - I am certain it does occur  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 08:33 AM   #145 
           - You vette via appointment of poll workers by the judge that runs the local  papau   Jul-22-06 08:34 PM   #90 
              - Right  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 12:18 AM   #128 
           - Yes  Febble   Jul-22-06 02:41 PM   #22 
              - How do your exit polls come out in the end?  kster   Jul-22-06 02:50 PM   #26 
                 - Well, they are a bit different  Febble   Jul-22-06 03:13 PM   #36 
                    - You knew about the "Shy tories"  kster   Jul-23-06 06:02 PM   #115 
     - The procedure is a simple do the National first and report, go back and  papau   Jul-22-06 08:29 PM   #89 
     - Well, that makes sense to me  Febble   Jul-23-06 03:42 PM   #109 
        - It can be argued there's more fraud potential minus the electoral college  Awsi Dooger   Jul-23-06 04:08 PM   #110 
           - hmmm.....  Febble   Jul-23-06 04:33 PM   #113 
              - What's the common argument around here, only 4 votes per precinct?  Awsi Dooger   Jul-23-06 05:56 PM   #114 
  - Hi Febble - levers are infamous for high error rate due to wear on the  papau   Jul-22-06 08:22 PM   #87 
     - Just realized that given the rather small number of samples my  papau   Jul-22-06 11:53 PM   #93 
     - Well, that's true when it comes to  Febble   Jul-23-06 07:30 AM   #96 
     - Yes  Febble   Jul-23-06 06:31 AM   #94 
  - Then let each voter use an OpScan to check--not cast--the ballot.  Wilms   Jul-22-06 01:36 PM   #4 
  - But we can't TRUST the machines, remember?  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 01:58 PM   #9 
     - Well, I think there are at least three  Febble   Jul-22-06 02:07 PM   #11 
     - That's the way I see it.  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 02:16 PM   #13 
     - Perhaps I wasn't clear.  Wilms   Jul-22-06 02:18 PM   #14 
        - I think random audits are KEY  Febble   Jul-22-06 02:27 PM   #18 
        - Objections to Holt's HR 550...  liam_laddie   Jul-22-06 03:44 PM   #43 
           - On what basis  Febble   Jul-22-06 03:54 PM   #46 
           - Not criteria...(I'm not a scientist-stat person)  liam_laddie   Jul-22-06 04:06 PM   #49 
              - We just had a big thunderstorm  Febble   Jul-22-06 04:26 PM   #53 
              - You need to trust mathematics, and distrust your instincts  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 05:15 PM   #61 
           - Who says 10% is needed?  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 05:14 PM   #59 
              - My concern is...  liam_laddie   Jul-23-06 10:08 AM   #98 
                 - As I understand it, HR550  Febble   Jul-23-06 10:50 AM   #99 
                 - The only solution  BeFree   Jul-23-06 11:33 AM   #100 
                 - This bears repeating  Kelvin Mace   Jul-23-06 02:27 PM   #104 
                 - The ony objection I have seen 550  Kelvin Mace   Jul-23-06 02:32 PM   #105 
        - I agree that your suggestion is rational  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 02:37 PM   #19 
        - I agree - at least 5% of precincts and 5% of votes - and truly random n/t  papau   Jul-22-06 08:45 PM   #91 
  - Are you serious?  Everybody   Jul-22-06 02:27 PM   #17 
  - Then tell me how  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 02:38 PM   #21 
  - Not so long ago, in my Austin precinct  janeaustin   Jul-22-06 03:00 PM   #31 
  - Because they don't believe in questioning their own  Kelvin Mace   Jul-22-06 05:23 PM   #65 
     - Over 4 or 5 days, counting 25 races is not a big deal - and National is  papau   Jul-22-06 08:46 PM   #92 
     - It is not just speed  Kelvin Mace   Jul-23-06 02:06 PM   #101 
        - what backs up those assertions? The longer counting goes on does  papau   Jul-23-06 02:59 PM   #107 
     - And well worth it, to preserve democracy.  janeaustin   Jul-23-06 10:04 PM   #116 
        - As the more the ballot is handled  Kelvin Mace   Jul-23-06 11:48 PM   #118 
           - I guess we disagree about that. n/t  janeaustin   Jul-24-06 01:21 AM   #141 
              - Sorry we disgaree  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 08:36 AM   #146 
  - Please explain this to me: if you're in favor of audits that make use of  diva77   Jul-22-06 06:01 PM   #72 
  - Here you go: a compromise  BeFree   Jul-22-06 07:09 PM   #82 
  - thanks for response, but I'd really like someone to answer my questions  diva77   Jul-22-06 07:22 PM   #83 
  - Random sampling  Kelvin Mace   Jul-23-06 02:21 PM   #102 
     - Dumb  BeFree   Jul-23-06 11:59 PM   #121 
        - Actually, since you haven't figured it out  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 12:03 AM   #122 
           - Apples and oranges is dumb  BeFree   Jul-24-06 12:13 AM   #124 
              - I anxiously await to see the law that you  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 12:15 AM   #126 
                 - You  BeFree   Jul-24-06 12:18 AM   #127 
                    - I never claimed I save the world  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 12:28 AM   #132 
                       - I've worked a number of bills  BeFree   Jul-24-06 12:31 AM   #135 
                          - What bills, involving what legislation?  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 08:30 AM   #144 
                             - Odd  BeFree   Jul-24-06 09:16 AM   #151 
                                - Uh, I'm am, not "fixated" on you  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 10:15 AM   #152 
  - Use some form of scanner to help with Under/Over votes and count by hand.  yourout   Jul-23-06 06:44 AM   #95 
  - Ah, no  Kelvin Mace   Jul-23-06 02:26 PM   #103 
     - You are right Kelvin  timewellspent   Jul-23-06 02:44 PM   #106 
     - I keep tryingt to point this out  Kelvin Mace   Jul-23-06 11:54 PM   #119 
        - Where is this fantasy machine?  BeFree   Jul-24-06 12:25 AM   #130 
           - Asked and answered  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 12:26 AM   #131 
              - No, you haven't.  BeFree   Jul-24-06 12:28 AM   #133 
                 - Asked and answered  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 12:31 AM   #134 
                    - Where? Is that so hard to provide a link?  BeFree   Jul-24-06 12:34 AM   #136 
                       - This is a problem I run into quite often  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 08:28 AM   #143 
     - No 2 scanners are calibrated exactly alike, so your argument falls apart  diva77   Jul-23-06 03:18 PM   #108 
        - I answered the questions  Kelvin Mace   Jul-23-06 11:47 PM   #117 
           - I have heard that hcpb costs, I believe, 33% of what machines cost. Where  diva77   Jul-24-06 01:04 AM   #140 
              - first paperless voting systems have to be banned  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jul-24-06 08:43 AM   #148 
              - Your local library has dozens of books  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 08:52 AM   #149 
                 - An increase of population increases the pool of people to count ballots.  Wilms   Jul-24-06 09:11 AM   #150 
  - simple...  peacetheonlyway   Jul-23-06 04:20 PM   #112 
  - How does this help in the case where  Kelvin Mace   Jul-23-06 11:56 PM   #120 
  - the design itself  peacetheonlyway   Jul-24-06 12:59 AM   #138 
     - And how do we determine the intent of  Kelvin Mace   Jul-24-06 08:40 AM   #147 
  - You don't want to do that  Awsi Dooger   Jul-24-06 12:52 AM   #137 
  - Election Integrity and Cigarettes  WillYourVoteBCounted   Jul-24-06 01:00 AM   #139 
 

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