Febble
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Thu Dec-22-05 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #101 |
| 102. Ida Briggs' original study is here: |
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Edited on Thu Dec-22-05 06:48 AM by Febble
http://www.invisibleida.com/New_Hampshire.htm and her report on the recount is here: http://www.invisibleida.com/index.html My understanding is that selected precincts were chosen on the basis of her finding that vote-counted results were out of whack with expectations based on the 2000 vote, and that the degree to which they diverged was associated with voting technology. The implication from her reports is that the eleven precincts selected included those that she considered suspicious, but I cannot find a place where this is explicitly stated. USAtoday has articles here: http://www.russbaker.com/New%20Hampshire%20Recount,%20A... and here: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/evoting/20... and there's a piece on Nader's website here: http://www.votenader.org/media_press/index.php?cid=413 It sounds like Nader selected the 11 precincts based on Briggs's finding. Ah, here's another one: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1118-03.htm Precincts are described as those in which "Bush did surprisingly well". On edit: I think there was a widespread belief, at the time of the NH recount, that the precincts were selected on the basis of aberrant exit polls, a trap Hertzgaard seems to have fallen into as well. Both the exit polls and the Briggs study pointed to the possibility of pro-Bush fraud, but the recount infirms the latter rather than the former. On the other hand, if one accepts (as one need not) that the hand recount is evidence against widespread electronic fraud, then the probability that the exit poll discrepancy was due to polling bias, rather than electronic vote-switching, at least increases.
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| -Mother Jones magazine lets Hertsgaard hack on democracy and elections |
Land Shark |
Nov-12-05 04:12 PM |
#0 |
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It reminds me of an old Reese's commercial |
GuvWurld |
Nov-12-05 04:43 PM |
#1 |
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LOL! |
sfexpat2000 |
Nov-12-05 04:50 PM |
#2 |
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had to think of "you got peanut butter on my chocolate": smoke and mirrors |
Land Shark |
Nov-12-05 04:51 PM |
#3 |
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Or, as I once heard someone say who was newly elected to congress: |
Amaryllis |
Nov-12-05 04:58 PM |
#8 |
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Well, hang on a bit.... |
Febble |
Nov-12-05 04:52 PM |
#4 |
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Oh, dear Febble, hang on or I'll have to take you to the woodshed too.... |
Land Shark |
Nov-12-05 04:57 PM |
#6 |
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Well yes |
Febble |
Nov-12-05 05:36 PM |
#12 |
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I'll take "well yes" to be the concession intended, and here's a start: |
Land Shark |
Nov-12-05 05:52 PM |
#16 |
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FYI my state of NH uses optical scanners most everywhere. |
Warren Stupidity |
Nov-12-05 07:39 PM |
#30 |
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think again about optical scanners |
garybeck |
Nov-12-05 08:14 PM |
#32 |
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I agree 99% of NH is saintly honest, that leaves thousands left over... |
Land Shark |
Nov-12-05 08:25 PM |
#33 |
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WHat kind of machines? |
druidity33 |
Nov-12-05 04:57 PM |
#7 |
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Invisible Ida again: |
Febble |
Nov-12-05 06:28 PM |
#27 |
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Talk to Kip. He said NH wasn't properly recounted to catch the problems. |
Amaryllis |
Nov-12-05 04:56 PM |
#5 |
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So this would mean NH recount didn't even rule out the error recounts can |
Land Shark |
Nov-12-05 04:59 PM |
#9 |
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What forms of corruption will a recount miss |
Febble |
Nov-12-05 05:58 PM |
#21 |
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Yes, according to Kip. Something about the way it's organized with |
Amaryllis |
Nov-12-05 09:22 PM |
#35 |
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Interesting but vague. |
Bill Bored |
Nov-12-05 11:47 PM |
#41 |
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It's been nearly a year since Kip and I talked about this, so I don't |
Amaryllis |
Nov-13-05 07:54 PM |
#54 |
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Good work with Mother Jones Shark...whip them into shape! |
autorank |
Nov-12-05 05:18 PM |
#10 |
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no math required for the sniff test |
nashville_brook |
Nov-12-05 05:20 PM |
#11 |
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Well that's what recounts do |
Febble |
Nov-12-05 05:43 PM |
#13 |
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Don't think recounts show it "starts to look like" error's in exit polls. |
Land Shark |
Nov-12-05 06:00 PM |
#22 |
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The recounted precincts |
Febble |
Nov-12-05 06:16 PM |
#25 |
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You tell me Febble, |
Land Shark |
Nov-12-05 07:23 PM |
#28 |
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See reply #27 n/t |
Febble |
Nov-13-05 12:48 AM |
#43 |
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just stuff 'em all on election day, right? |
OnTheOtherHand |
Nov-12-05 07:24 PM |
#29 |
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There were a small number of precincts involved |
sean in iowa |
Nov-13-05 09:14 PM |
#57 |
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Here are more links to the NH timeline |
sean in iowa |
Nov-13-05 10:01 PM |
#58 |
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Oh dear. Now someone will have to go on Democracy Now too, |
Ojai Person |
Nov-12-05 05:50 PM |
#14 |
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Very well done Land Shark. I am glad MJ is printing it, it might help |
glitch |
Nov-12-05 05:51 PM |
#15 |
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Go get em landshark |
kster |
Nov-12-05 05:53 PM |
#17 |
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"videotape of the 1000 ballot replacement" |
garybeck |
Nov-12-05 05:53 PM |
#18 |
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videotape is assumed in my hypothetical so I can prove to Hertsgaard |
Land Shark |
Nov-12-05 06:02 PM |
#23 |
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LOL |
Febble |
Nov-12-05 06:17 PM |
#26 |
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OK, so |
garybeck |
Nov-12-05 07:44 PM |
#31 |
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Assuming the recount was done right (contested) and assuming |
Land Shark |
Nov-12-05 09:26 PM |
#36 |
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How to cheat using optical scan or punch card. |
Zan_of_Texas |
Nov-13-05 12:36 AM |
#42 |
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in the case of machine recounts, the same ballot definition errors Repeat |
Land Shark |
Nov-13-05 02:27 PM |
#49 |
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a manual recount would catch ballot definition errors n/t |
garybeck |
Nov-15-05 10:17 PM |
#99 |
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I believe that the recount in NH does indeed cast doubt on the |
Time for change |
Nov-12-05 10:26 PM |
#39 |
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And I believe the recounts in some OHIO counties cast doubt.... |
kiwi_expat |
Nov-15-05 07:42 AM |
#91 |
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One the punchcard ballots are detached from the deck, there is no serial # |
rosebud57 |
Nov-12-05 05:55 PM |
#19 |
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New Hampshire would not have been worth commiting election |
rosebud57 |
Nov-12-05 05:56 PM |
#20 |
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actually the most likely scenarios included a lot of E-College ties |
Land Shark |
Nov-12-05 06:05 PM |
#24 |
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I'd make that a bit more complicated |
OnTheOtherHand |
Nov-13-05 07:26 AM |
#44 |
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Primary states |
starmaker |
Nov-12-05 08:56 PM |
#34 |
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LS- this buds foor you |
FogerRox |
Nov-12-05 10:24 PM |
#38 |
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Thanks for all the family pics here, reminds me of our last LShark reunion |
Land Shark |
Nov-13-05 04:13 PM |
#52 |
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And you must be a cousin of the Oxford Land Shark: |
Febble |
Nov-14-05 12:47 PM |
#72 |
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At the definite risk of seeming impotent, full of rage and anger..... |
Land Shark |
Nov-14-05 01:44 PM |
#75 |
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It seems I got |
Febble |
Nov-14-05 02:05 PM |
#78 |
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Though gratifying to know your mistake is in the "doesn't matter 2 much" |
Land Shark |
Nov-14-05 07:10 PM |
#86 |
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Congratulations on having your letter published Land Shark |
Time for change |
Nov-12-05 10:17 PM |
#37 |
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Well, they've got MoJo spots on Air America now saying Dems |
Bill Bored |
Nov-12-05 11:33 PM |
#40 |
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Rec number 15! Where's Kip and Ida to add to the Discussion? |
Melissa G |
Nov-13-05 09:04 AM |
#45 |
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Well, I have to say |
Febble |
Nov-13-05 10:38 AM |
#46 |
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reminds me why Land Shark (both) wants to bite Hertsgaard's head off |
Land Shark |
Nov-13-05 02:12 PM |
#48 |
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What dumb-ass mistakes? |
Febble |
Nov-13-05 02:50 PM |
#51 |
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The issue is hertsgaard, not your straw men |
Land Shark |
Nov-13-05 08:59 PM |
#55 |
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Hertsgaard's investigations |
Febble |
Nov-14-05 02:14 AM |
#59 |
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Correction |
Febble |
Nov-14-05 05:01 AM |
#60 |
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Please see my post #64; I think you radically underappreciate that |
Land Shark |
Nov-14-05 09:39 AM |
#65 |
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If you view this entire debate |
Febble |
Nov-14-05 10:41 AM |
#66 |
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I think I could demonstrate such ability, in fact other than hard stats |
Land Shark |
Nov-14-05 11:25 AM |
#70 |
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"Totality of evidence": |
Febble |
Nov-14-05 12:42 PM |
#71 |
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caution is indicated on your use of the word "foil" |
Land Shark |
Nov-14-05 01:55 PM |
#77 |
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Not sampling error |
Febble |
Nov-14-05 02:07 PM |
#79 |
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and by the way, how DO you explain New Hampshire? |
OnTheOtherHand |
Nov-13-05 04:19 PM |
#53 |
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The issue is Hertsgaard, not YOUR straw men OTOH |
Land Shark |
Nov-13-05 09:14 PM |
#56 |
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my straw men? |
OnTheOtherHand |
Nov-14-05 06:04 AM |
#61 |
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Re: conclusions to draw from the NH recount |
sean in iowa |
Nov-14-05 07:27 AM |
#62 |
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well, I disagree with your "zero," but -- |
OnTheOtherHand |
Nov-14-05 04:36 PM |
#85 |
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"He bothers to look behind frequently-cited assertions and try to |
Time for change |
Nov-14-05 08:26 AM |
#63 |
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THank you Time for Change for Numbered Points, my responses are: |
Land Shark |
Nov-14-05 09:22 AM |
#64 |
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But let's put this in perspective |
Time for change |
Nov-14-05 11:14 AM |
#68 |
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on "sitting back and playing scientist" please see my new post |
Land Shark |
Nov-14-05 11:20 AM |
#69 |
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That's truly pathetic! |
Chi |
Nov-14-05 01:22 PM |
#73 |
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You're welcome Chi - Here is my full response to the article |
Time for change |
Nov-14-05 02:40 PM |
#82 |
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Well, I think that your use of |
Febble |
Nov-14-05 01:32 PM |
#74 |
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we shall see if the Hertsgaard approach engenders any prosecution |
Land Shark |
Nov-14-05 01:47 PM |
#76 |
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Or to boost the credibility |
Febble |
Nov-14-05 02:17 PM |
#80 |
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But if the beating up is cheap shots, it just takes us away from the truth |
Land Shark |
Nov-14-05 04:15 PM |
#84 |
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Cheap shots have no place |
Febble |
Nov-15-05 01:43 AM |
#89 |
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Yes. on the margins, a cheap shot is not a classic cheap shot |
Land Shark |
Nov-15-05 07:48 AM |
#92 |
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You have suggested that my posts |
Febble |
Nov-15-05 11:05 AM |
#95 |
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another legal concept, how i've been trained to think at least |
Land Shark |
Nov-15-05 02:15 PM |
#96 |
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Shoutfest on other thread n/t |
Febble |
Nov-15-05 04:34 PM |
#98 |
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Ok, I admitted that perhaps "burst the myth" is over-dramatic with regard |
Time for change |
Nov-14-05 02:36 PM |
#81 |
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OK! |
Febble |
Nov-14-05 02:41 PM |
#83 |
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Yes he did |
Time for change |
Nov-14-05 11:06 PM |
#88 |
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To be fair, I do agree with you that Hertsgaard's last paragraph is fair |
Time for change |
Nov-14-05 10:59 AM |
#67 |
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Need to focus on where we're at: NO INVESTIGATION |
Land Shark |
Nov-14-05 07:44 PM |
#87 |
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Yes, I basicaly agree |
Time for change |
Nov-15-05 07:34 AM |
#90 |
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your nutshell interpretation is EXACTLY |
marions ghost |
Nov-15-05 08:20 AM |
#93 |
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So what about New Hampshire |
PATRICK |
Nov-15-05 10:49 AM |
#94 |
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Finally, The Nation gets real with cartoon, "Ohio Voting" |
Ojai Person |
Nov-13-05 12:32 PM |
#47 |
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Excellent Ojai Person! n/t |
Melissa G |
Nov-13-05 02:36 PM |
#50 |
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Land Shark has now REALLY GONE AFTER Hertsgaard!!!!! (Picture!) |
Land Shark |
Nov-15-05 02:17 PM |
#97 |
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Excellent Post - Thank you |
sunshinekathy |
Dec-22-05 02:11 AM |
#100 |
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Just a couple points about the NH recount. |
Stevepol |
Dec-22-05 05:23 AM |
#101 |
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Ida Briggs' original study is here: |
Febble |
Dec-22-05 06:28 AM |
#102 |
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how "concentrated" could the discrepancies have been? |
OnTheOtherHand |
Dec-22-05 07:04 AM |
#103 |