Febble
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Sat Oct-22-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #115 |
| 118. Thanks, Melissa, again |
|
I'm not sure I quite understand your problem.
As I see it, the problem is to reconcile a fraud explanation of the exit poll discrepancy with the absence of any correlation between the discrepancy and the degree to which Bush improved his vote share.
If the discrepancy WASN'T due to fraud, it is actually quite easy, as there are lots of potential ways for a poll to have bias.
But because we have reason not to believe the count, we should, as Steve says, have grave suspicions about what the discrepancy indicates.
The question really, now, is whether we can largely ascribe the exit poll discrepancy to polling bias, and concentrate on finding out why there were so many irregularities, particularly in Ohio, and New Mexico, where relatively little fraud could have had a big impact.
|
| -Freeman presentation with slides From Mitofsky Debate is Here |
Melissa G |
Oct-18-05 09:42 AM |
#0 |
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thanks, kick!!! |
garybeck |
Oct-18-05 10:57 AM |
#1 |
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Kick? |
CalmMan |
Oct-19-05 09:00 AM |
#24 |
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Kick is shorthand and means the user wants to keep the post in |
Melissa G |
Oct-20-05 08:46 PM |
#65 |
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KICK-N-RECOMMEND..NT |
kster |
Oct-18-05 11:18 AM |
#2 |
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Recommend and kick n/t |
JohnGideon |
Oct-18-05 11:45 AM |
#3 |
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. |
vickiss |
Oct-18-05 11:47 AM |
#4 |
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kick |
Amaryllis |
Oct-18-05 12:28 PM |
#5 |
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great read! |
Mr Grieves |
Oct-18-05 02:24 PM |
#6 |
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Hi Mr Grieves... Welcome to DU! |
Melissa G |
Oct-18-05 04:20 PM |
#8 |
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Thanks for posting Melissa... |
Chi |
Oct-18-05 04:18 PM |
#7 |
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Hi Chi, thanks for the K and N! |
Melissa G |
Oct-18-05 04:21 PM |
#9 |
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OK, here's a response |
Febble |
Oct-18-05 05:11 PM |
#10 |
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But this report coupled |
kster |
Oct-18-05 08:27 PM |
#11 |
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Hi Febble, Thanks for the post. You are right it is long so it 's hard for |
Melissa G |
Oct-18-05 11:09 PM |
#13 |
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OK |
Febble |
Oct-19-05 02:09 AM |
#16 |
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I don't think I buy this one Feb: |
Bill Bored |
Oct-19-05 01:13 AM |
#14 |
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hang on |
Febble |
Oct-19-05 01:57 AM |
#15 |
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Okay Febble, I'm hearing your Edit sink your water tight alibi against |
Melissa G |
Oct-19-05 05:58 AM |
#17 |
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No, I am not saying that |
Febble |
Oct-19-05 08:43 AM |
#21 |
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Sorry typo |
Febble |
Oct-19-05 09:59 AM |
#26 |
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Fair enough |
Bill Bored |
Oct-19-05 03:09 PM |
#37 |
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Points taken |
Febble |
Oct-19-05 04:14 PM |
#38 |
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OK, so you are refuting the TIA/Freeman 10,000,000 vote thing. |
Bill Bored |
Oct-19-05 08:45 PM |
#47 |
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Well I tend to agree about the brolly |
Febble |
Oct-20-05 07:08 AM |
#58 |
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Well I'd still be interested to know how many of the 1460 |
Bill Bored |
Oct-21-05 01:44 AM |
#70 |
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Quick and incomplete response |
Febble |
Oct-21-05 02:46 AM |
#72 |
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I think we're talking past each other. |
Bill Bored |
Oct-21-05 11:49 AM |
#77 |
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Well, maybe we are |
Febble |
Oct-21-05 12:43 PM |
#78 |
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I think it is important to say that uncounted overvotes cost Gore Florida. |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-21-05 06:21 PM |
#85 |
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Distraction? Quagmire is more like it! |
Bill Bored |
Oct-23-05 04:19 AM |
#127 |
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One of the rather tricky things the republicans are doing is changing, |
Melissa G |
Oct-22-05 11:03 PM |
#123 |
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Another factor: increasing the number of precincts per polling place. |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-23-05 12:20 AM |
#124 |
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Thanks kiwi! I'm concerned about strange variables creeping in that |
Melissa G |
Oct-23-05 12:26 AM |
#125 |
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Good point, Melissa |
Febble |
Oct-23-05 06:36 PM |
#138 |
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umm, no one is claiming WHAT? |
OnTheOtherHand |
Oct-19-05 07:41 AM |
#19 |
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You need to muster more facts to support your case... |
eomer |
Oct-19-05 07:25 AM |
#18 |
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Sorry Eomer, we seem to be talking past each other. |
Febble |
Oct-19-05 09:00 AM |
#23 |
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Yes, I think we are talking past each other. |
eomer |
Oct-19-05 10:37 AM |
#27 |
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You are right |
Febble |
Oct-19-05 10:54 AM |
#28 |
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Thanks, I need to ponder this a bit more. |
eomer |
Oct-19-05 11:28 AM |
#29 |
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Hi Febble,In case you don't remember my lack of technical geekness |
Melissa G |
Oct-19-05 10:01 PM |
#50 |
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This is around what i wanted to say about C.. |
Melissa G |
Oct-19-05 10:48 PM |
#52 |
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Melissa, I think there is some confusion here |
Febble |
Oct-20-05 07:01 AM |
#57 |
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About FFF and FFFV which I could call Mitofsky's new plot but I prefer to |
Melissa G |
Oct-20-05 09:57 PM |
#68 |
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Thanks, Melissa |
Febble |
Oct-21-05 02:31 AM |
#71 |
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Febble, I'm not with you yet (and I'm headed in the wrong direction). |
eomer |
Oct-21-05 08:36 AM |
#75 |
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Your model will work |
Febble |
Oct-21-05 12:56 PM |
#79 |
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Wait a minute |
rdmccur |
Oct-19-05 11:05 PM |
#53 |
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TfC, Mellissa, Eomer, Bill, too |
Febble |
Oct-20-05 02:10 AM |
#54 |
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I need some |
rdmccur |
Oct-20-05 12:35 PM |
#60 |
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yes, you are quite right |
OnTheOtherHand |
Oct-20-05 02:39 PM |
#61 |
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I agree with OTOH |
Febble |
Oct-20-05 03:58 PM |
#63 |
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But Febble |
Time for change |
Oct-21-05 11:14 PM |
#94 |
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It's not an easy calculation |
Febble |
Oct-22-05 09:21 AM |
#108 |
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Ok, thank you. So half a million if random |
Time for change |
Oct-22-05 10:46 AM |
#109 |
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No |
Febble |
Oct-22-05 11:14 AM |
#110 |
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Yes, of course that's right, it would have had to have been targeted at |
Time for change |
Oct-22-05 01:59 PM |
#111 |
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Well, I think that is a good reason |
Febble |
Oct-22-05 03:01 PM |
#112 |
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Hi Febble, I wanna restate that I appreciate your care |
Melissa G |
Oct-22-05 04:05 PM |
#115 |
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Thanks, Melissa, again |
Febble |
Oct-22-05 04:46 PM |
#118 |
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I have two thoughts on this |
Time for change |
Oct-22-05 06:23 PM |
#119 |
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6 of Ohio's 49 NEP precincts are in Cuyahoga (Cleveland) |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-22-05 07:43 PM |
#121 |
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Thank you for the link Febble |
Time for change |
Oct-23-05 12:38 PM |
#134 |
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Damn |
Febble |
Oct-23-05 12:43 PM |
#135 |
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Thank you -- got it and book-marked it |
Time for change |
Oct-23-05 03:03 PM |
#137 |
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a fiendishly complicated algorithm, ON THE MACHINES? |
Bill Bored |
Oct-23-05 04:38 AM |
#128 |
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Presumably that too |
Febble |
Oct-23-05 10:38 AM |
#133 |
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Finally, a response to your response. |
eomer |
Nov-02-05 04:37 PM |
#144 |
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OTOH and I have been working on similar lines |
Febble |
Nov-02-05 04:43 PM |
#145 |
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The clearing up is almost done (thanks for asking)... |
eomer |
Nov-02-05 06:25 PM |
#147 |
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Cool. I'd like a Prius |
Febble |
Nov-02-05 06:35 PM |
#148 |
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Hmm... I've been out liberaled (bike beats hybrid, rock beats scissors,.. |
eomer |
Nov-02-05 06:50 PM |
#150 |
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it seems to me that with fraud variance that low |
OnTheOtherHand |
Nov-02-05 04:55 PM |
#146 |
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Hey OTOH, how's it going? |
eomer |
Nov-02-05 06:45 PM |
#149 |
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well, fair enough |
OnTheOtherHand |
Nov-02-05 07:21 PM |
#151 |
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Let me rephrase that... |
eomer |
Nov-03-05 06:47 AM |
#152 |
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yours works if |
OnTheOtherHand |
Nov-03-05 07:40 AM |
#153 |
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Yes, that sounds like the right q to me. |
eomer |
Nov-03-05 08:48 AM |
#154 |
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here ya go |
OnTheOtherHand |
Nov-03-05 09:54 AM |
#155 |
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K and R! Thanks! |
bleever |
Oct-18-05 08:33 PM |
#12 |
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followup reporting on all this? |
CalmMan |
Oct-19-05 08:35 AM |
#20 |
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Not just for Stats and Math fans |
CalmMan |
Oct-19-05 08:59 AM |
#22 |
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Except stat and math fans? |
Febble |
Oct-19-05 09:02 AM |
#25 |
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Thank you posting this Melissa |
Time for change |
Oct-19-05 12:06 PM |
#30 |
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Your point #1.... |
anaxarchos |
Oct-19-05 12:46 PM |
#31 |
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Ok, that makes sense -- but are you sure that was his point? |
Time for change |
Oct-19-05 01:00 PM |
#32 |
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2 Points... |
anaxarchos |
Oct-19-05 01:40 PM |
#33 |
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I agree it's not small |
Time for change |
Oct-19-05 02:58 PM |
#36 |
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Not to belabor this but... |
anaxarchos |
Oct-19-05 08:43 PM |
#46 |
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Ok then, can you tell me what you estimate to be the total net loss of |
Time for change |
Oct-20-05 07:57 AM |
#59 |
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A reasonable number would be 1.8 to 2.0 million votes... |
anaxarchos |
Oct-20-05 03:37 PM |
#62 |
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Ok, I get something close to that |
Time for change |
Oct-20-05 09:38 PM |
#67 |
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The Gore Florida "votes" from 2000 are all based... |
anaxarchos |
Oct-20-05 10:49 PM |
#69 |
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Well, thanks anax |
Febble |
Oct-21-05 02:52 AM |
#73 |
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We have agreed on one point... |
anaxarchos |
Oct-22-05 01:45 AM |
#97 |
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No Nobel Peace Prize expected |
Febble |
Oct-22-05 07:45 AM |
#106 |
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OK, having paused |
Febble |
Oct-22-05 09:06 AM |
#107 |
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Honest answer... |
anaxarchos |
Oct-22-05 03:08 PM |
#113 |
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From the bottom up |
Febble |
Oct-22-05 03:38 PM |
#114 |
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We have just shifted again... |
anaxarchos |
Oct-22-05 04:27 PM |
#116 |
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Sorry, |
Febble |
Oct-22-05 04:41 PM |
#117 |
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Actually, quite the opposite... |
anaxarchos |
Oct-22-05 06:25 PM |
#120 |
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Well I need your argument |
Febble |
Oct-23-05 03:49 AM |
#126 |
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I posted a bad link |
Febble |
Oct-23-05 01:13 PM |
#136 |
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Really Febble, |
anaxarchos |
Oct-23-05 11:29 PM |
#139 |
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I have patience to spare. |
Febble |
Oct-24-05 08:59 AM |
#142 |
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re. "The Game" |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-22-05 08:14 PM |
#122 |
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Do you mean |
Febble |
Oct-23-05 07:46 AM |
#129 |
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I meant popular votes - but I would also say that about Electoral votes if |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-23-05 08:09 AM |
#130 |
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OK |
Febble |
Oct-23-05 08:25 AM |
#131 |
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Please see the comment I added, on edit ,to post #130. n/t |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-23-05 08:39 AM |
#132 |
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Looking at the Survey questions, eh? |
anaxarchos |
Oct-24-05 12:43 AM |
#140 |
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Possible 5 million fundamentalists voted Gore2000 and Bush2004 ?? |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-24-05 08:12 AM |
#141 |
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More realistic: 2.4 million fundamentalists voted Gore2000 and Bush2004 |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-24-05 08:41 PM |
#143 |
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I certainly agree with your main points |
Time for change |
Oct-21-05 10:00 AM |
#76 |
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Minor points... |
anaxarchos |
Oct-21-05 12:58 PM |
#80 |
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This is what I don't understand |
Time for change |
Oct-21-05 02:11 PM |
#83 |
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We may be drifting "off topic"... |
anaxarchos |
Oct-21-05 03:12 PM |
#84 |
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As you say, the Miami Herald's recount was only of UNDER votes. |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-21-05 06:40 PM |
#86 |
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I know that Gore did much better with the over-votes than under-votes |
Time for change |
Oct-21-05 09:38 PM |
#89 |
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Here is the entire Gainesville Sun article |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-21-05 11:00 PM |
#92 |
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Very interesting -- thank you |
Time for change |
Oct-21-05 11:10 PM |
#93 |
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The only over votes that could have been included in the vote count... |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-21-05 11:23 PM |
#95 |
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Actually the NORC study found that ... |
yowzayowzayowza |
Oct-22-05 01:47 AM |
#98 |
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Gore narrowly won all legally-acceptable overvotes scenarios. |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-22-05 07:34 AM |
#103 |
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That may be but |
Time for change |
Oct-22-05 07:40 AM |
#104 |
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And there is Jim Knapp's |
Febble |
Oct-19-05 05:09 PM |
#41 |
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I don't believe he is using this single point to account for other than |
Melissa G |
Oct-19-05 01:44 PM |
#34 |
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Ok, that makes sense n/t |
Time for change |
Oct-19-05 02:49 PM |
#35 |
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But what's wrong with |
Febble |
Oct-19-05 04:16 PM |
#39 |
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I agree most definitely |
Time for change |
Oct-19-05 09:11 PM |
#49 |
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it seems ready made for the internet |
foo_bar |
Oct-19-05 04:44 PM |
#40 |
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great post -- a note on Republican governors |
OnTheOtherHand |
Oct-19-05 05:51 PM |
#42 |
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Are you saying that Freeman misclassified the party of |
Time for change |
Oct-19-05 08:39 PM |
#45 |
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actually, I think probably not, but I still can't replicate the result |
OnTheOtherHand |
Oct-20-05 06:31 AM |
#56 |
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Secretary of state is generally appointed by the governor ..no? |
Melissa G |
Oct-21-05 11:42 PM |
#96 |
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The internet? |
Time for change |
Oct-19-05 09:04 PM |
#48 |
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the presentation seems to be geared towards the internet |
foo_bar |
Oct-20-05 04:54 PM |
#64 |
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Thank you for the voter complaint data |
Time for change |
Oct-20-05 09:21 PM |
#66 |
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How was the weather in the North East on Election Day? n/t |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-21-05 07:55 AM |
#74 |
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Well the interesting thing |
Febble |
Oct-21-05 01:05 PM |
#81 |
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I have never understood "shyer in partisan territory" hypotheses. |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-21-05 06:50 PM |
#87 |
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the respondents don't know it's confidential yet |
foo_bar |
Oct-22-05 03:01 AM |
#100 |
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And too many Birkenstocks |
Febble |
Oct-22-05 07:21 AM |
#102 |
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.... especially if the interviewers wear Birkenstocks too. n/t |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-22-05 07:42 AM |
#105 |
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I don't know. |
Febble |
Oct-22-05 07:20 AM |
#101 |
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heavy reading |
foo_bar |
Oct-22-05 02:16 AM |
#99 |
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quick note on paper ballots |
OnTheOtherHand |
Oct-19-05 08:01 PM |
#43 |
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Ok, not enough power to give statistical significance to paper ballots |
Time for change |
Oct-19-05 08:38 PM |
#44 |
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Yes! this is what I wa s trying to say about C in Febble and Eomer's |
Melissa G |
Oct-19-05 10:40 PM |
#51 |
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yes, all these things (pretty much) |
OnTheOtherHand |
Oct-20-05 06:07 AM |
#55 |
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***179,000*** SPOILED BALLOTS --- Why understate our case? |
autorank |
Oct-21-05 01:53 PM |
#82 |
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Consortium recount showed (net) 46,000 spoiled ballots favoured Gore. |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-21-05 07:18 PM |
#88 |
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along with the 50,000 Floridians pulled from the voting rolls by "felon |
autorank |
Oct-21-05 10:02 PM |
#90 |
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The 46,000 are a sub-set of the 179,000. |
kiwi_expat |
Oct-21-05 10:53 PM |
#91 |