hunter
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Thu Aug-18-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #106 |
| 117. Hi, Patrick, I haven't seen you around. |
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But I haven't been hanging out much in the DU election forums lately. Even for purpose of arguing about election technology, it has become difficult for me to believe we live in any sort of Democracy or Republic. (I remember when it was still okay to laugh at elections in the Soviet Union... now I have very grave concerns about our own.)
It's a sad thing to live in a nation where people believe COUNTING MARKS ON A PIECE OF PAPER (1,2,3,4,5,6,7....) requires high technology.
If I went back to the nineteenth century and handed Herman Hollerith a bag of photodiodes, he could probably come up with an optical scanner that wwould be more trustworthy than some of the crap high-tech optical vote counters we have today.
As a practical matter paper ballots read by optical scanners are the only economical solution to our vote counting problems. But we must be very careful that these optical scanners don't have any more processing power than that required to simply count the votes. An optical scanner with mechanical counters might be preferable to something requiring an "operating system" or any proprietary software. (The suggestion that we might put such software in "escrow" is utterly appalling to me.)
The function of software is to manipulate data. There is no good reason to manipulate votes. The electronic path between your vote on your ballot and the count reported to the registrar needs to be entirely transparent. The optical scanners that read our votes have one job, and that is to simply count votes. These vote counting machines need to be as stupid and as low-tech as we can possibly make them or they will not be trustworthy.
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| -Honest question: if the vote is on paper but tabulated by computer, are we |
helderheid |
Aug-04-05 05:06 PM |
#0 |
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Yup. It's that central tabulator that needs to go. |
shraby |
Aug-04-05 05:09 PM |
#1 |
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I agree |
helderheid |
Aug-04-05 05:10 PM |
#4 |
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yeah U R right-- to a point |
FogerRox |
Aug-04-05 05:10 PM |
#2 |
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Optical Scans are hardly an improvement ... |
Ian_rd |
Aug-04-05 05:10 PM |
#3 |
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Optical scanners are not computers. |
endarkenment |
Aug-04-05 05:44 PM |
#13 |
  -
Optical scanners are just easy to tamper with as touchscreens, |
Stevepol |
Aug-08-05 01:04 PM |
#80 |
   -
They are quite easy to tamper with, but... |
riqster |
Aug-08-05 02:52 PM |
#82 |
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Optical scanners are just easy to tamper with as touchscreens, |
Stevepol |
Aug-08-05 01:04 PM |
#81 |
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paper ballots-- please-- a paper trial is somhing left behind-- |
FogerRox |
Aug-04-05 05:56 PM |
#15 |
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Yes, the best solution is electronic touch screen with paper trail |
whistle |
Aug-04-05 05:15 PM |
#5 |
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Touch screens? WHY ???!!!!! |
nicknameless |
Aug-04-05 05:33 PM |
#10 |
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It was not optical scan equipment |
endarkenment |
Aug-04-05 05:22 PM |
#6 |
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I agree with you on the touch screens - I guess my question goes for |
helderheid |
Aug-04-05 05:25 PM |
#7 |
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OK two different issues here |
endarkenment |
Aug-04-05 05:40 PM |
#12 |
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Yes! |
nicknameless |
Aug-04-05 06:28 PM |
#23 |
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helderheid - let me tell you what I have learned from working with |
merh |
Aug-04-05 06:47 PM |
#27 |
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Only way to make it safe |
kster |
Aug-04-05 05:28 PM |
#8 |
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E voting - are you saying go with E voting? |
merh |
Aug-04-05 06:24 PM |
#21 |
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Paper Ballots Hand Counted And Recorded By The People |
kster |
Aug-04-05 09:08 PM |
#45 |
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Are there innovations in hand-counting of paper ballots? |
diva77 |
Aug-08-05 11:41 PM |
#85 |
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Innovations? Sure |
riqster |
Aug-09-05 01:38 PM |
#89 |
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I think of optical scans as a potentially rescuable system |
Land Shark |
Aug-04-05 05:32 PM |
#9 |
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Once the votes are digitized they can be manipulated. |
CrispyQGirl |
Aug-04-05 05:35 PM |
#11 |
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IMHO, ... |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-04-05 05:56 PM |
#14 |
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Please stop using paper trial-- Opscans scan paper ballots- |
FogerRox |
Aug-04-05 05:59 PM |
#17 |
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R U talkin to me? |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-04-05 06:06 PM |
#18 |
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Any one in genral that use the term paper trial-- |
FogerRox |
Aug-04-05 06:45 PM |
#26 |
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Optical-scan machines have screwed us over big-time. Think 18,181. |
nicknameless |
Aug-04-05 05:58 PM |
#16 |
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Proper QC auditing would have.. |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-04-05 06:08 PM |
#19 |
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AGAIN ??!!!!!! |
nicknameless |
Aug-04-05 06:21 PM |
#20 |
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Yep. |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-04-05 06:26 PM |
#22 |
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"Histrionics" -- Where? |
nicknameless |
Aug-04-05 06:33 PM |
#24 |
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Machines don't steal elections... |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-04-05 06:40 PM |
#25 |
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Those doing "Quality Control" in the arenas you cite INTEND for their |
nicknameless |
Aug-04-05 06:56 PM |
#28 |
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QC requirements ... |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-04-05 07:12 PM |
#32 |
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Where a recount is done, errors CAN be caught. |
nicknameless |
Aug-04-05 07:29 PM |
#39 |
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Um.... |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-04-05 07:44 PM |
#42 |
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So ... we're stuck with the vote-stealers? |
nicknameless |
Aug-04-05 08:50 PM |
#44 |
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Yep. |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-04-05 09:47 PM |
#47 |
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It’s fascinating how you continue to defend the vote-stealers. |
nicknameless |
Aug-05-05 12:25 AM |
#49 |
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Indeed |
kster |
Aug-05-05 12:53 AM |
#50 |
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Thanks and Amen! |
nicknameless |
Aug-05-05 01:18 AM |
#53 |
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You two together at last. |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-05-05 01:32 AM |
#55 |
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Hey,You stole my line |
kster |
Aug-05-05 02:09 AM |
#56 |
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The only method I've seen you obsess over is... |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-05-05 05:15 AM |
#60 |
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You get legislation passed that does not allow them to |
merh |
Aug-05-05 10:14 AM |
#64 |
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You got that right |
kster |
Aug-06-05 12:19 AM |
#71 |
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Firmware... |
GentryLange |
Aug-12-05 04:20 AM |
#101 |
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WOW. |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-05-05 01:30 AM |
#54 |
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You have to audit complete precincts or at least complete machines |
Bill Bored |
Aug-05-05 04:51 PM |
#65 |
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Yes and No. |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-05-05 06:57 PM |
#67 |
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You still need serial numbers on every ballot to compare the VVPAT |
Bill Bored |
Aug-05-05 08:32 PM |
#68 |
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VVPAT is garbage. |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-05-05 09:07 PM |
#69 |
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DREs do not have VVPBs. They have VVPATs. |
Bill Bored |
Aug-06-05 01:06 AM |
#72 |
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Yea, I've no interest in a trail. |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-06-05 01:50 AM |
#73 |
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NO! And do not call it a "trail"... remember ANDY'S WARNING! |
demodonkey |
Aug-06-05 06:14 AM |
#75 |
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I don't understand.. |
merh |
Aug-04-05 06:59 PM |
#29 |
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Diebold ATM use open sorce software |
FogerRox |
Aug-04-05 07:11 PM |
#31 |
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I'm not advocating for the Diebold DREs |
merh |
Aug-04-05 07:15 PM |
#34 |
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I HAVE DONE NONE OF THE THINGS YOU'RE SAYING! |
nicknameless |
Aug-04-05 07:14 PM |
#33 |
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The opti-scans with paper ballots is what the other poster is |
merh |
Aug-04-05 07:23 PM |
#36 |
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Funding has been a number one problem for election officials |
merh |
Aug-04-05 07:26 PM |
#37 |
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OK, so we should add the tabulation machines to those we want with open |
helderheid |
Aug-04-05 07:06 PM |
#30 |
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IMHO, with proper auditing... |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-04-05 07:21 PM |
#35 |
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Source code to be held in escrow if irregularities a rise |
FogerRox |
Aug-04-05 07:27 PM |
#38 |
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Yes. |
merh |
Aug-04-05 07:33 PM |
#40 |
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Agreed! |
adolfo |
Aug-08-05 02:56 PM |
#83 |
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IMHO that depends on the election officials you encounter.. |
GentryLange |
Aug-12-05 04:31 AM |
#102 |
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But what do you do when the firmware is rigged? |
nicknameless |
Aug-05-05 04:14 AM |
#57 |
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Whether the software is written... |
yowzayowzayowza |
Aug-05-05 04:28 AM |
#58 |
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I certainly wasn't asking YOU. |
nicknameless |
Aug-05-05 04:58 AM |
#59 |
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Anyone who knows me on this forum knows how anti diebold, etc., I am |
helderheid |
Aug-05-05 09:18 AM |
#63 |
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I think most DUers are anti-diebold etc. vote-stealing machines. |
nicknameless |
Aug-05-05 05:33 PM |
#66 |
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Clermont was not the only county to use Opti - Brown did also |
timewellspent |
Aug-04-05 07:40 PM |
#41 |
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Welcome to DU, timewellspent! |
merh |
Aug-04-05 07:47 PM |
#43 |
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Precinct totals should be compared to central totals on the Internet. |
Bill Bored |
Aug-04-05 09:08 PM |
#46 |
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Thank you for posting a reasonable post. |
merh |
Aug-04-05 10:36 PM |
#48 |
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opscans with random audits |
garybeck |
Aug-05-05 01:10 AM |
#51 |
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If we want a printout |
Wow |
Aug-05-05 01:15 AM |
#52 |
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Two advantages of opscan |
eridani |
Aug-05-05 08:07 AM |
#61 |
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The only way to make any voting system work is transparency |
riqster |
Aug-05-05 09:15 AM |
#62 |
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KICK.NT |
kster |
Aug-05-05 10:18 PM |
#70 |
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Helderheid, great question |
kster |
Aug-06-05 02:34 AM |
#74 |
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Thanks :) |
helderheid |
Aug-06-05 08:21 AM |
#76 |
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kick.nt |
kster |
Aug-07-05 10:25 PM |
#77 |
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Central tabulators can be screwed with just like regular voting machines |
Time for change |
Aug-08-05 09:13 AM |
#78 |
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Actually, that is only one method that was used. |
riqster |
Aug-08-05 09:25 AM |
#79 |
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Absolutely -- thank you for stressing that |
Time for change |
Aug-10-05 03:34 PM |
#95 |
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Calling liam_laddie |
kiwi_expat |
Aug-08-05 08:57 PM |
#84 |
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I have discussed this issue with Voters Unite!, among others |
Time for change |
Aug-09-05 08:05 AM |
#86 |
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Just seems to me this would be the easiest way to swing an election as |
helderheid |
Aug-09-05 08:30 AM |
#87 |
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I think so too |
Time for change |
Aug-10-05 04:02 PM |
#96 |
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This is why |
kster |
Aug-10-05 05:44 PM |
#97 |
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answering the call, sort of... |
liam_laddie |
Aug-09-05 01:23 PM |
#88 |
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Thanks liam. We just need the pre-tabulator TOTAL votes for each precinct |
kiwi_expat |
Aug-10-05 01:34 AM |
#90 |
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That's what I thought too |
Time for change |
Aug-10-05 03:31 PM |
#94 |
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Ohio statute re. recording number of regular ballots used |
kiwi_expat |
Aug-11-05 10:46 PM |
#99 |
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"Valid"-prov totals ARE available by precinct. That's all we need! |
kiwi_expat |
Aug-12-05 12:11 AM |
#100 |
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That sounds great! |
Time for change |
Aug-12-05 10:51 AM |
#103 |
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Liam-laddie indicated he might try again to check the Ham County books |
kiwi_expat |
Aug-12-05 08:26 PM |
#105 |
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Let me see if I understand this correctly |
Time for change |
Aug-13-05 04:13 PM |
#107 |
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We are just talking about the TOTAL votes for the precinct, of course. |
kiwi_expat |
Aug-14-05 07:44 AM |
#108 |
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I am very excited about this. I think this could be an important key to |
Time for change |
Aug-14-05 04:25 PM |
#109 |
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I sure hope you're right. |
kiwi_expat |
Aug-15-05 10:31 PM |
#110 |
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I don't know much about Hamilton County |
Time for change |
Aug-16-05 11:52 AM |
#111 |
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I agree with you about Cuyahoga and Warren Counties - and Clermont... |
kiwi_expat |
Aug-16-05 07:23 PM |
#112 |
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I will bring this up with Ray Beckerman's 'Ohio project' |
Time for change |
Aug-17-05 05:26 PM |
#113 |
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Good idea. |
kiwi_expat |
Aug-17-05 06:47 PM |
#114 |
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Here ya go: |
Time for change |
Aug-17-05 08:38 PM |
#115 |
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Liam_laddie knows the most about the pre-tab totals. |
kiwi_expat |
Aug-17-05 11:35 PM |
#116 |
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I wasn't able to get the needed info from the Ohio Project |
Time for change |
Aug-18-05 03:15 PM |
#118 |
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How about contacting Kucinich's office for help with Cuyahoga? |
kiwi_expat |
Aug-18-05 08:02 PM |
#119 |
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I'll look into it, thanks n/t |
Time for change |
Aug-19-05 06:12 AM |
#120 |
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helderheid |
marions ghost |
Aug-10-05 08:33 AM |
#91 |
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Blackwell would like it to be Diebold |
riqster |
Aug-10-05 09:15 AM |
#92 |
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thanks for that info |
marions ghost |
Aug-10-05 11:05 AM |
#93 |
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thanks for this - a very important clarification and much appreciated! |
helderheid |
Aug-11-05 08:52 PM |
#98 |
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MG. do we have a date when these new memory cards have become suspect? |
mod mom |
Aug-22-05 06:35 PM |
#122 |
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punch cards were by FAR the biggest problem in FL |
Cocoa |
Aug-12-05 06:42 PM |
#104 |
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They overreach because they have to |
PATRICK |
Aug-13-05 09:04 AM |
#106 |
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Hi, Patrick, I haven't seen you around. |
hunter |
Aug-18-05 12:44 PM |
#117 |
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Kick,for old times sake..nt |
kster |
Aug-21-05 11:45 PM |
#121 |
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kick for transparent elections. |
mod mom |
Aug-25-05 12:49 PM |
#123 |