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Reply #69: Read this section of HAVA. Aren't DREs without paper trails illegal? [View All]

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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
69. Read this section of HAVA. Aren't DREs without paper trails illegal?
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 09:42 PM by Carolab
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/hava/HAVA_2002.html

(2) Audit capacity.--
(A) In general.--The voting system shall produce a
record with an audit capacity for such system.
(B) Manual audit capacity.--
(i) The voting system shall produce a
permanent paper record with a manual audit
capacity for such system.
(ii) The voting system shall provide the voter
with an opportunity to change the ballot or
correct any error before the permanent paper
record is produced.
(iii) The paper record produced under
subparagraph (A) shall be available as an official
record for any recount conducted with respect to
any election in which the system is used.

How can you manually audit electronic votes if there is no paper record other than a machine printout? When a bookkeeper audits, they go beyond the books and look at receipts and invoices, etc.

Here's a paper that argues this, too:

http://www.wheresthepaper.org/
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  -Why can't Diebold-counted voters slap Diebold with a class action suit? Stevepol  Jan-16-05 06:31 PM   #0 
  - there is a clause in the contract that diebold  ixion   Jan-16-05 06:42 PM   #1 
  - Even if there were  bemis12   Jan-16-05 06:49 PM   #3 
  - If that clause *does* exist, then sue all signers on the contract.  Starlight   Jan-16-05 06:53 PM   #4 
  - The trick is getting a copy of the contract  plan9_pub   Jan-17-05 07:06 PM   #61 
  - I was thinking the same thing.  Pacifist Patriot   Jan-16-05 07:37 PM   #16 
  - Yeah, I heard about that...  Prag   Jan-16-05 06:56 PM   #5 
  - This is true.  Prag   Jan-16-05 07:10 PM   #6 
     - Where on the net?  bemis12   Jan-16-05 07:17 PM   #8 
     - I've been following this stuff for awhile...  Prag   Jan-16-05 07:25 PM   #11 
        - Well, thinking about it....  bemis12   Jan-16-05 07:28 PM   #13 
        - It's tucked right in there...  Prag   Jan-16-05 07:37 PM   #15 
           - Here are the docs  helderheid   Jan-17-05 10:20 AM   #29 
              - just saw this  helderheid   Jan-17-05 10:35 AM   #31 
              - Bless *you* helderheid!  Prag   Jan-17-05 11:02 AM   #33 
                 - I agree  helderheid   Jan-17-05 11:20 AM   #35 
     - It's a CYA...  Prag   Jan-16-05 07:21 PM   #10 
        - My suggestion...  Prag   Jan-16-05 07:45 PM   #18 
  - I did sign any contract. n/t  genieroze   Jan-17-05 05:22 PM   #55 
  - I'm not a lawyer,. but I'd LOVE to see this happen somehow  IndyPriest   Jan-16-05 06:42 PM   #2 
  - Kick!  rdmccur   Jan-16-05 07:19 PM   #9 
  - Is the clause to hold Diebold harmless in case of malfunction?  Wilms   Jan-16-05 07:17 PM   #7 
  - Yeah Wilms...  Prag   Jan-16-05 07:27 PM   #12 
  - Excellent point.  Pacifist Patriot   Jan-16-05 07:38 PM   #17 
  - it's completely unproveable, isn't it?  President Jesus   Jan-16-05 07:35 PM   #14 
  - If it violates HAVA I can see grounds for a suit. n/t  Carolab   Jan-16-05 08:32 PM   #19 
     - Have you read HAVA?  PaganPreacher   Jan-17-05 10:58 AM   #32 
        - If you don't like the "relief"  Carolab   Jan-17-05 02:22 PM   #49 
           - Good question! I don't know.  PaganPreacher   Jan-17-05 04:39 PM   #54 
  - How does a person show that their vote wasn't counted ?  euler   Jan-16-05 08:45 PM   #20 
  - I'm a lawyer and I think they could be sued  davidgmills   Jan-16-05 09:32 PM   #21 
  - Now... WHO do we send this to? GAWD-DARN GREAT IDEA!!!!  BigBearJohn   Jan-16-05 09:45 PM   #22 
  - see post #26  davidgmills   Jan-17-05 08:56 AM   #27 
  - In NM (despite the stonewalling  rdmccur   Jan-16-05 09:49 PM   #24 
  - Thank you!  helderheid   Jan-17-05 10:29 AM   #30 
  - Kick.  Pooka Fey   Jan-16-05 09:47 PM   #23 
  - It seems to me the evidence about tobacco's dangers is equally  Stevepol   Jan-17-05 05:08 AM   #25 
  - Very good talking point -- analogy to tobacco caused cancer  davidgmills   Jan-17-05 08:55 AM   #26 
  - Davidgmills, as you surmised above  Beth in VT   Jan-17-05 09:08 PM   #68 
  - Stevepol: "circumstantial and 'statistical' evidence"-YES! KICK!  Peace Patriot   Jan-17-05 11:09 AM   #34 
     - Required Reading in this thread.  Prag   Jan-17-05 11:21 AM   #36 
     - Peace Patriot you really have a ton of ideas to think through, all good.  Stevepol   Jan-17-05 11:27 AM   #37 
     - Stevepol: "Maybe some of this Kerry battalion of lawyers..."  Peace Patriot   Jan-17-05 12:09 PM   #43 
        - Don't think Kerry lawyers are the answer  davidgmills   Jan-17-05 01:14 PM   #45 
     - YES  helderheid   Jan-17-05 11:27 AM   #38 
     - Taking care not to harm the innocent (or relatively innocent)...  Peace Patriot   Jan-17-05 11:34 AM   #39 
     - I am as well n/t  helderheid   Jan-17-05 11:37 AM   #40 
     - Glad some people see value  qwghlmian   Jan-17-05 11:41 AM   #41 
        - Yeah, because why?  Peace Patriot   Jan-17-05 01:41 PM   #47 
     - Some interesting comments here and my response on what is needed  davidgmills   Jan-17-05 12:05 PM   #42 
     - davidgmills: Dr. Steven Freeman in his 2nd paper on exit polls says...  Peace Patriot   Jan-17-05 01:06 PM   #44 
        - If you win two exit polls  davidgmills   Jan-17-05 01:21 PM   #46 
           - davidgmills: As I said, I'm not against re-exit polling...  Peace Patriot   Jan-17-05 02:06 PM   #48 
              - Couldn't agree with you more  davidgmills   Jan-17-05 02:27 PM   #51 
                 - The Grandfather clock analogy...  Peace Patriot   Jan-17-05 06:48 PM   #58 
                    - Atomic  davidgmills   Jan-17-05 08:11 PM   #64 
     - Kick n/t  EuroObserver   Jan-17-05 06:42 PM   #57 
  - Kick! n/t  ivorysteve   Jan-17-05 10:16 AM   #28 
  - Forget everything else. THIS is our solution. We need to do it.  BigBearJohn   Jan-17-05 02:25 PM   #50 
  - New Jersey looks like the place I would start  davidgmills   Jan-17-05 06:38 PM   #56 
  - CA SOS Kevin Shelley had a lawsuit against them for ...I think it was  Amaryllis   Jan-17-05 03:13 PM   #52 
  - I believe the lawsuits in CA were for using uncertified software, at least  Stevepol   Jan-17-05 04:30 PM   #53 
     - Unfortunately  plan9_pub   Jan-17-05 07:05 PM   #60 
     - As whoring goes  bemis12   Jan-17-05 07:14 PM   #62 
     - It's about half what Bev has cost me  plan9_pub   Jan-17-05 08:19 PM   #65 
     - have my doubts about that  davidgmills   Jan-17-05 08:24 PM   #66 
     - As it was explained to me  plan9_pub   Jan-17-05 11:24 PM   #71 
        - Dismissed with prejudice  davidgmills   Jan-18-05 08:49 AM   #72 
           - But, since the state was party to the suit  plan9_pub   Jan-18-05 05:27 PM   #73 
              - Thanks for bailing me out Mr. Allen.  Prag   Jan-18-05 06:47 PM   #74 
              - Did the state file the suit  davidgmills   Jan-19-05 08:59 AM   #75 
     - Wow...  Prag   Jan-19-05 09:17 AM   #76 
     - Shelley also provided Californians with a paper ballot option...  Peace Patriot   Jan-17-05 07:25 PM   #63 
  - There is solid evidence of fraud in many states- why aren't they doing som  berniew1   Jan-17-05 07:01 PM   #59 
  - Greg Palast has an interesting take on all this...  Peace Patriot   Jan-17-05 08:25 PM   #67 
  - Read this section of HAVA. Aren't DREs without paper trails illegal?  Carolab   Jan-17-05 09:32 PM   #69 
     - These regs from HAVA could provide some hooks for the lawsuits.  Stevepol   Jan-17-05 09:48 PM   #70 
 

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