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Reply #99: Is this the argument that the pro-stadium lobby is using? [View All]

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Spike from MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Is this the argument that the pro-stadium lobby is using?
No. They are pushing the (non-existent) economic benefits. The public should be informed of the economic realities and allowed to decide through a referendum.

If cities subsidize commercial sports in the quest for an improved image or to enhance the quality of life for its citizens, then taxpayers should be allowed to decide the stadium subsidy issue on these bases. Using economics as a justification for the subsidy is a political expedient, perhaps necessity, but it is inconsistent with the statistical evidence (1996, p. 37).

Once again, money spent on libraries, parks, etc. is a part of the normal function of government and that money isn't going to line some billionaire's pocket. Are ethanol or biodiesel producers billionaires? Please provide me with a link as all I found was that that in 2001, MN had 14 farmer-owned cooperatives. Also, please note that funding ethanol and biodiesel is an appropriate role of the government as it deals with energy and the environment. The same can't be said for professional sports facilities.

Stadiums CAN be built solely with private money and it IS feasible to so do.

A study by researchers at the University of Dayton concludes that large public subsidies for the construction of major league baseball stadiums are unnecessary.

Economics professors Marc Poitras and Larry Hadley examined the 13 stadiums built between 1989 and 2001 and concluded teams would probably recover all or nearly all the cost of construction if the ballparks were built with private money instead of taxpayer money.

"The bottom line is that these new stadiums generate sufficient revenue to pay for themselves," Hadley said Wednesday. "If the stadium pays for itself internally, that should be sufficient motivation for the owners to build it."

Second, critics of private financing say that there is no way a team who has to pay for its own stadium can compete against teams who benefit from publicly-subsidized stadiums. In a sense, this is not the taxpayers' problem. Professional baseball economics are unfair now, with teams in large media markets or with generous state and local governments providing an edge over teams in smaller markets (such as the Twins). It is up to Major League Baseball to continue to pursue reforms such as revenue sharing to provide a more level playing field.

If the private investors want to increase their profits and/or recoup their investment more quickly, they can always tack on user fees. Then maybe they could get an idea of just how much these "intangibiles" are worth to the die-hard fans.
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  -Twins Get Stadium thefriendlytipster  Apr-24-05 10:43 AM   #0 
  - I hate these stadium deals  Godai Kyoko   Apr-24-05 11:15 AM   #1 
  - it's baseball  oldtime dfl_er   Apr-24-05 11:52 AM   #2 
  - Not true...  SaveElmer   Apr-25-05 10:18 PM   #19 
     - Camden Yards: annual benefit: $3 mil; annual cost: $14 mil.  Spike from MN   May-05-05 10:47 AM   #60 
  - GGRrrrrr!  Lydia Leftcoast   Apr-24-05 06:35 PM   #3 
  - Right on  dissent1977   May-06-05 04:32 PM   #91 
  - Oh great - an open air stadium  dflprincess   Apr-24-05 07:30 PM   #4 
  - ya..  Karthun   Apr-24-05 10:11 PM   #5 
  - As I said,  dflprincess   Apr-24-05 10:39 PM   #7 
  - a roof could be built later  Sorwen   Apr-25-05 09:55 AM   #10 
  - And you know they will be back asking for more money for a roof  dissent1977   May-06-05 04:31 PM   #90 
  - There was also a Vikings stadium pressure story  CatholicEdHead   Apr-24-05 10:17 PM   #6 
  - where can we help them pack?  loveable liberal   Apr-24-05 11:12 PM   #8 
     - Me 2.  Lindacooks   Apr-27-05 09:34 PM   #39 
  - I think this is a great plan  Sorwen   Apr-25-05 09:53 AM   #9 
  - The point is, our "public servants" want to tax us  Lydia Leftcoast   Apr-25-05 01:18 PM   #11 
     - no, the point isn't that it would benefit Pohlad  Sorwen   Apr-25-05 02:56 PM   #12 
     - So should every form of entertainment get a sales tax subsidy?  Lydia Leftcoast   Apr-25-05 03:36 PM   #14 
     - Is it the subsidy you're mad about?  Krupskaya   Apr-25-05 03:57 PM   #15 
     - It's the messed up sense of priorities  Lydia Leftcoast   Apr-25-05 04:05 PM   #16 
     - As does just about every large business...  SaveElmer   Apr-25-05 10:26 PM   #21 
     - not if it isn't needed  Sorwen   Apr-25-05 04:07 PM   #17 
     - The point is there seems to be limited money for the things  Lindacooks   Apr-27-05 09:39 PM   #40 
     - A shortsighted view in my opinion...  SaveElmer   Apr-25-05 10:56 PM   #22 
     - I live in Minneapolis and pay $.07 tax because of the convention center  Love Bug   Apr-27-05 09:41 AM   #36 
        - How successful?  SaveElmer   Apr-27-05 09:53 AM   #37 
     - one other thing  Sorwen   Apr-27-05 08:48 AM   #35 
        - Pohlad has family who will survive him and there's no guarantee the  jean   May-04-05 07:57 PM   #55 
           - Yes, it IS a guarantee  Sorwen   May-05-05 09:50 AM   #57 
              - Does the proposal include language requiring the 30-yr lease?  jean   May-05-05 11:37 AM   #63 
                 - Yes, there is a 30-year lease  Sorwen   May-05-05 12:34 PM   #66 
                    - no plans for roof sounds like no plans for A/C at the Metrodome...  jean   May-05-05 02:03 PM   #70 
  - If one wonders why unions don't always jump up and cheer for democrats...  Krupskaya   Apr-25-05 03:21 PM   #13 
  - Do we know they'll hire union workers to build the place?  dflprincess   Apr-25-05 10:19 PM   #20 
     - I can't see how they wouldn't.  Krupskaya   Apr-26-05 12:42 PM   #31 
        - are the Twins doing the hiring of labor or the state, which has been  jean   May-04-05 07:59 PM   #56 
        - I've been out of construction for a while  eyepaddle   May-05-05 11:28 AM   #62 
           - interesting union tidbit on AAR Minnesota today - there are now more  jean   May-05-05 11:42 AM   #64 
        - So just because Hennepin Co. taxpayers would be paying unions?  dpbrown   May-05-05 03:02 PM   #74 
           - Obviously, that was not my point.  Krupskaya   May-05-05 03:17 PM   #77 
              - The danger in trying to be too cryptic is in becoming misunderstood  dpbrown   May-05-05 04:12 PM   #79 
  - Looks like a good solution  SaveElmer   Apr-25-05 10:16 PM   #18 
  - A good editorial  thefriendlytipster   Apr-25-05 11:17 PM   #23 
     - Of course the Twins benefit  SaveElmer   Apr-26-05 08:53 AM   #26 
  - If you have a $200 purchase at IKEA in Bloomington...  SmileyBoy   Apr-25-05 11:30 PM   #24 
  - No, what frosts me above all  Lydia Leftcoast   Apr-26-05 08:37 AM   #25 
     - Here's the thing  Sorwen   Apr-26-05 09:21 AM   #27 
     - Three cents per twenty dollars is not a significant amount of money  Lydia Leftcoast   Apr-26-05 10:09 AM   #28 
     - Actually  Sorwen   Apr-26-05 11:32 AM   #29 
        - What you said.  Krupskaya   Apr-26-05 12:39 PM   #30 
     - Well said...  SaveElmer   Apr-26-05 01:48 PM   #33 
     - The idea is to stimulate growth  SaveElmer   Apr-26-05 01:47 PM   #32 
        - Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.  Spike from MN   May-02-05 02:22 PM   #42 
           - I would be more than happy to pay for it with a user's tax  Sorwen   May-02-05 03:41 PM   #43 
           - Ah, but parks, zoos and libraries are completely different.  Spike from MN   May-03-05 08:52 AM   #44 
              - Not much different  Sorwen   May-03-05 01:55 PM   #45 
                 - No, it's a LOT different.  Spike from MN   May-05-05 10:29 AM   #58 
                    - Pohlad would pay for cost overruns  Sorwen   May-05-05 12:25 PM   #65 
                       - Looks like Turner Field in Atlanta was paid for entirely by private  Spike from MN   May-05-05 01:02 PM   #67 
                          - Who cares why Pohlad wants the stadium?  Sorwen   May-05-05 01:42 PM   #68 
                             - I care, since he's using public money for it.  Spike from MN   May-06-05 01:55 PM   #86 
                                - So you would rather  Sorwen   May-06-05 02:51 PM   #87 
                                   - If it's not OK for him to fund something he will lose money on, why  Spike from MN   May-06-05 03:15 PM   #88 
                                      - I think we've covered all the bases here  Sorwen   May-06-05 04:13 PM   #89 
                                         - Yes, I saw those LTTEs.  Spike from MN   May-09-05 08:29 AM   #94 
                                            - taxation without representation?  Sorwen   May-09-05 10:57 AM   #96 
                                               - Well, since they aren't representing the will of the people  Spike from MN   May-09-05 02:02 PM   #100 
                                                  - That's not what "taxation without representation" means.  Sorwen   May-09-05 03:36 PM   #102 
                                                  - What else do you call it when they ignore the will of the people  Spike from MN   May-10-05 07:29 AM   #104 
           - Just saw your post and will reply with links on the other side soon...  SaveElmer   May-03-05 04:56 PM   #46 
  - I'm all for a stadium , but a roof is needed  DemonFighterLives   Apr-26-05 09:21 PM   #34 
  - I'm furious about this, and will be making my opinion very clear  Lindacooks   Apr-27-05 09:33 PM   #38 
  - A new stadium will help with all those things  SaveElmer   Apr-29-05 04:58 PM   #41 
     - That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard.  Lindacooks   May-09-05 03:39 AM   #93 
        - Yes, Lindacooks. Priorities first. Not a dime for stadiums until  katinmn   May-09-05 08:42 AM   #95 
  - NO NEW STADIUMS!!!  USA_1   May-03-05 11:22 PM   #47 
  - No can do  SaveElmer   May-04-05 10:25 AM   #48 
     - why not a puny barely noticeable tax increase for healthcare and  katinmn   May-04-05 11:48 AM   #49 
     - yes, let's do that too  Sorwen   May-04-05 12:06 PM   #50 
     - I have no problem with that...but  SaveElmer   May-04-05 12:17 PM   #51 
        - sorry -- it's still corporate welfare  katinmn   May-04-05 12:37 PM   #52 
           - Strictly speaking not welfare as...  SaveElmer   May-04-05 12:55 PM   #53 
     - They financed the Guthrie "without a whisper of protest"?? Hardly.  Spike from MN   May-05-05 10:40 AM   #59 
        - I overstated was in comparison to the Stadium debate  SaveElmer   May-05-05 03:56 PM   #78 
           - It won't go to referendum because the people would vote it down.  Spike from MN   May-09-05 11:51 AM   #97 
              - You can't measure the true benefits!  Sorwen   May-09-05 01:00 PM   #98 
                 - Is this the argument that the pro-stadium lobby is using?  Spike from MN   May-09-05 01:55 PM   #99 
                    - Yes, of course it's the argument  Sorwen   May-09-05 03:12 PM   #101 
                    - No, that's NOT the argument the Twins are using.  Spike from MN   May-10-05 08:44 AM   #105 
                       - okay  Sorwen   May-10-05 12:48 PM   #106 
                          - Alright  Spike from MN   May-11-05 08:45 AM   #107 
                    - regarding corporate welfare  Sorwen   May-09-05 03:56 PM   #103 
  - An issue that asn't really ever been discussed is  eyepaddle   May-04-05 07:42 PM   #54 
  - Well, not to sound too blatantly cynical  eyepaddle   May-05-05 11:22 AM   #61 
  - I just don't see how building a stadium is going to help the other  Lydia Leftcoast   May-05-05 01:55 PM   #69 
     - It likely won't help directly, the point  eyepaddle   May-05-05 02:23 PM   #71 
        - excellent post (n/t)  Sorwen   May-05-05 02:39 PM   #73 
        - I really like your arguments, eyepaddle. I hope to hear more from you.  SmileyBoy   May-05-05 08:03 PM   #85 
  - God how long have we had to hear about stadiums?  MsAnthropy   May-05-05 02:34 PM   #72 
  - AAR said $10 per ticket would cover the new stadium  dpbrown   May-05-05 03:05 PM   #75 
  - I've got a great idea  eyepaddle   May-05-05 03:11 PM   #76 
     - I don't think that logically follows, but I get your point  dpbrown   May-05-05 04:16 PM   #80 
     - Nobody will die if the stadium isn't built  Lydia Leftcoast   May-05-05 04:27 PM   #81 
        - I am 100 percent in favor of spending more  eyepaddle   May-05-05 05:00 PM   #82 
           - As I said, it's not stuff for MYSELF, but for others  Lydia Leftcoast   May-05-05 05:22 PM   #83 
              - No single item makes up quality of life  eyepaddle   May-05-05 05:53 PM   #84 
  - What!  Zenzic   May-07-05 03:42 AM   #92 

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