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BklnDem75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-07-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #158
167. When you ask questions like this...
it makes me wonder if you're really dealing with reality. Let's be honest, if this bill fails, do you think that will embolden us or conservatives? We're not gonna get better than this if it fails. That is pure illusion. We're making concessions from within our own party. What you're suggesting is equivalent to being turned down for $50,000 and expecting to come back a few days later to ask for $75,000. Are you really listening to yourself?
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  -I'm sorry to say it but I want this healthcare legislation to crash and burn cali  Nov-07-09 09:08 AM   #0 
  - Agreed  Autumn   Nov-07-09 09:11 AM   #1 
  - Take a deep breath and see what comes out of Conference.  jasi2006   Nov-07-09 07:04 PM   #172 
     - Yes. Let's wait for 20-25 years to see if it really works or not. Let's wait.  FormerDittoHead   Nov-08-09 08:54 AM   #193 
  - Yeah, I agree too...  CaliforniaPeggy   Nov-07-09 09:12 AM   #2 
  - Boy, for it being a "giveaway" to insurance companies, the ins. companies sure are against it.  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 09:14 AM   #3 
  - I just talked to an friend who works for a health insurance company  skipos   Nov-07-09 09:20 AM   #8 
  - Yea and I have asked the question to a few DUers making such claims and none answer it.  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 09:22 AM   #11 
     - Try asking a question in good faith then.  Hello_Kitty   Nov-07-09 11:15 AM   #36 
     - I had an OP that asked why health insurance stocks are underperforming the S&P  skipos   Nov-07-09 11:51 AM   #57 
        - There could be a lot of reasons for stock going down.  Hello_Kitty   Nov-07-09 12:04 PM   #66 
        - Stocks at a glance....  lyonn   Nov-07-09 01:23 PM   #121 
     - you know better than to expect a well articulated response from them  Aramchek   Nov-07-09 12:37 PM   #94 
     - you DLC corporatist bankster lover, you  dionysus   Nov-07-09 02:32 PM   #151 
  - Because that is how you play the negotiation game.  phantom power   Nov-07-09 09:21 AM   #10 
  - That not an answer. Thats a cop out to side step the question.  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 09:25 AM   #14 
     - Of course it's an answer. You might disagree with it.  phantom power   Nov-07-09 09:37 AM   #18 
     - No, its a convoluted conspiracy theory that does not actually answer my valid question.  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 09:42 AM   #20 
     - Just b/c they oppose it does not mean they wont come out better than middle class voters.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 11:29 AM   #42 
     - just curious how do you get people covered without mandating coverage?  Egnever   Nov-07-09 12:28 PM   #83 
     - The same way we pay for multi-billion dollar, unpopular wars based on lies?  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:33 PM   #88 
        - Was that supposed to be an answer?  Egnever   Nov-07-09 12:43 PM   #97 
           - Not "an" answer- but "the" answer. Yes, taxes pay for public projects.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:52 PM   #103 
              - Well i dont think you are thinking this through  Egnever   Nov-07-09 01:13 PM   #116 
                 - So Obama and the DEMS will be breaking their promise? I guess they didn't think that through.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 01:21 PM   #120 
                    - I dont understand what you are saying .  Egnever   Nov-07-09 01:27 PM   #123 
                       - Sure- you do- I'm saying we should raise taxes on the top 1%.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 01:38 PM   #130 
                          - So in other words you want a pony.  Egnever   Nov-07-09 01:46 PM   #131 
                             - So , in other words, you want "ponies" for the Corporations and the ultra rich.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 02:04 PM   #141 
                                - Taxes are mandates  Egnever   Nov-07-09 02:06 PM   #144 
                                   - Fine- then let's "mandate" that the top 1% pay raised taxes in order to help fund HC.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 02:15 PM   #149 
                                      - Increased taxes on >$500,000 a year. It's already in the bill.  boppers   Nov-07-09 08:58 PM   #183 
     - No its still not a give away. Not when you consider what we will also require of the corporations.  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 01:11 PM   #113 
     - They will be making their profits, instead of the money going back into the system.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 01:27 PM   #122 
        - I don't have a problem with profits as long as people get covered  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 01:34 PM   #129 
           - I do. I'd rather the "profits" go back into the system, not into the pockets of the gougers.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 01:48 PM   #133 
              - Its dishonest to call it a give away because the companies stand to lose more than they gain.  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 02:03 PM   #140 
                 - I dont feel I'm lying when I say that they are still getting something out of this...  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 02:11 PM   #148 
     - Is public option out of the bill? nt  lyonn   Nov-07-09 01:59 PM   #137 
        - Was a strong PO that I qualify for ever in any viable bill? n/t  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 02:19 PM   #150 
     - +100  Egnever   Nov-07-09 12:27 PM   #82 
     - single payer never had the votes. i don't understand why people cannot grasp this.  dionysus   Nov-07-09 02:36 PM   #153 
     - Wouldnt they oppose ANYTHING that is percieved as taking even the slightest amt. of power from them?  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 11:24 AM   #38 
     - Makes sense, otherwise why spend so much opposing it?  lyonn   Nov-07-09 01:56 PM   #136 
        - B/c they prefer the status quo to what still amounts to a give away. n/t  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 02:05 PM   #143 
  - theatre.... n/t  nebenaube   Nov-07-09 10:21 AM   #25 
  - Its the "Don't throw me in the Briar Patch" strategy..  bvar22   Nov-07-09 10:51 AM   #29 
  - right cause people are making their decisions based on insurance companies reactions  Egnever   Nov-07-09 12:30 PM   #86 
     - See posts 8 and 11 this thread.  bvar22   Nov-07-09 12:42 PM   #96 
        - but the Briar patch comment does?  Egnever   Nov-07-09 12:44 PM   #99 
  - They were out to destroy anything close to a viable public option. They succeeded.  ipaint   Nov-07-09 11:41 AM   #48 
  - DING! DING! DING! DING!  SKKY   Nov-07-09 01:18 PM   #119 
  - They're just complaining about being thrown in the briar patch at this point.  JVS   Nov-07-09 05:15 PM   #169 
  - "Red herring" "bait-and-switch" familiar with the terms?  DRoseDARs   Nov-07-09 09:12 PM   #184 
  - Egads  sandnsea   Nov-07-09 09:14 AM   #4 
  - That was my understanding of it too unless something changed.  Kdillard   Nov-07-09 09:19 AM   #6 
  - I'm glad you don't have a vote. nt  ChicagoSuz219   Nov-07-09 09:17 AM   #5 
  - Neither do you.  arcadian   Nov-07-09 09:45 AM   #23 
     - True. Things are looking good in Congress, tho'... so YAY!! nt  ChicagoSuz219   Nov-07-09 11:38 AM   #47 
  - this thing based more or less on the Mass. model is just awful.nt  xchrom   Nov-07-09 09:20 AM   #7 
  - People who can't get insurance now will thank you for your idealism  frazzled   Nov-07-09 09:20 AM   #9 
  - I know I was shocked to learn that you could be turned down for a  Kdillard   Nov-07-09 09:24 AM   #12 
     - Or turned down for being an HIV risk because you were raped and a dr gave you anti-AIDS meds.  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 09:26 AM   #15 
  - The anti-choice crowd knows something that progressives don't.  John Q. Citizen   Nov-07-09 09:25 AM   #13 
  - and what then?  nemo137   Nov-08-09 08:04 AM   #191 
  - If it is good enough for Alan Grayson, it is good enough for me.  tabatha   Nov-07-09 09:28 AM   #16 
  - And that dirty, rotten corporatist Howard Dean!  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 09:30 AM   #17 
  - Next you should call him a "DLCer".  argonaut   Nov-07-09 09:39 AM   #19 
  - A corporatist AND a DLCer? That would make my progressive gonads WAY too hot and bothered.  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 09:43 AM   #22 
  - Actually, Dean said it should be passed.  tabatha   Nov-07-09 09:43 AM   #21 
  - you know...I remember Conyers saying  windbreeze   Nov-07-09 11:01 AM   #32 
  - Oh great!  nevergiveup   Nov-07-09 09:47 AM   #24 
  - +1 n/t  firedupdem   Nov-07-09 10:22 AM   #26 
  - Well said! nt  babylonsister   Nov-07-09 11:38 AM   #45 
  - Thank you for writing  Cha   Nov-07-09 01:47 PM   #132 
  - Its one thing to say that you against the legislation  grantcart   Nov-07-09 10:29 AM   #27 
  - don't expect reason from those who oppose the bill, they have none  Aramchek   Nov-07-09 12:40 PM   #95 
  - Thanks for helping kill me off!  dave29   Nov-07-09 10:43 AM   #28 
  - I have a question about this health care reform...  windbreeze   Nov-07-09 10:55 AM   #30 
  - It is a catch22 there needs to be a mandate. The way I understood it is that you were fined.  Kdillard   Nov-07-09 10:59 AM   #31 
  - No, her kids will have insurance if they are lucky enough to have their parents foot the bill  Hello_Kitty   Nov-07-09 11:11 AM   #35 
     - IF that IS the case, then I am against it, period...  windbreeze   Nov-07-09 12:12 PM   #71 
        - Yeah, I don't know anyone who opts out of insurance just because they can either.  Hello_Kitty   Nov-07-09 12:19 PM   #74 
        - wonderful...and here I was hoping I had misunderstood....n/t  windbreeze   Nov-07-09 12:37 PM   #93 
        - There are afordibility credits  Egnever   Nov-07-09 01:30 PM   #126 
  - well there are fines for not buying insurance  Egnever   Nov-07-09 12:51 PM   #101 
     - The point is....if even ONE does....  windbreeze   Nov-08-09 12:44 AM   #188 
  - Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater  Politicub   Nov-07-09 11:04 AM   #33 
  - I agree with Cali today.  bvar22   Nov-07-09 11:08 AM   #34 
  - I don't--this is basically an experiment, and I want to see how it works.  TwilightGardener   Nov-07-09 11:18 AM   #37 
  - Its just a stepping stone  BootinUp   Nov-07-09 11:24 AM   #39 
  - +1  Oregone   Nov-07-09 11:25 AM   #40 
  - jeez! I don't wish for the dem defeat. nt  cry baby   Nov-07-09 11:26 AM   #41 
  - It failing isn't going to help it become a better bill. More of a delay and it  Thrill   Nov-07-09 11:34 AM   #43 
  - Yay, that's the spirit! Let's stop 40 years worth of progress  impik   Nov-07-09 11:37 AM   #44 
  - You moron! Abortion rights have been reduced for many years now  IndianaGreen   Nov-07-09 01:06 PM   #110 
  - If this bill crashes and burns, we will get absolutely nothing for another 20 years.  backscatter712   Nov-07-09 11:38 AM   #46 
  - Why 20 years? Why not just go back to congress and keep working until it gets done right?  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 11:46 AM   #50 
     - If you haven't noticed that is exactly what was being done after  Cleita   Nov-07-09 11:49 AM   #54 
     - You really think Congress is going to turn around and try again after that kind of embarassment?  backscatter712   Nov-07-09 11:51 AM   #56 
        - So if DEMS had opposed invading Iraq, the GOP would have had to wait 20 years to invade?  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 11:55 AM   #61 
        - Not a heck of a lot of Dems opposed the invasion of Iraq.  backscatter712   Nov-07-09 12:04 PM   #67 
           - Voters oppose both wars now. Something tells me it wont be "20 years" before both get more funding.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:21 PM   #76 
        - Exactly. Once a bill is passed it can always be fixed but if it doesn't pass noone will want to  Kdillard   Nov-07-09 11:57 AM   #64 
           - Who is the " no one" in your statement? Blue Dogs? DLCers?  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:25 PM   #80 
           - It will need to get in line behind nafta, welfare reform and deregulation.  ipaint   Nov-07-09 03:25 PM   #162 
  - I lurked here for a long time before joining and posting only recently.  branders seine   Nov-07-09 11:44 AM   #49 
  - Yeah, I gotta agree.  Cleita   Nov-07-09 11:47 AM   #51 
  - Why 20 years? Who made the rule that we cant go back every day, every week until we get it right?  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 11:49 AM   #53 
  - Because they won't let it come to the floor in that length of time  Cleita   Nov-07-09 11:53 AM   #60 
     - Who would kill the debate? Blue Dogs & DLCers?  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 11:58 AM   #65 
        - If you've been paying attention, the DLCers have already fucked over  Cleita   Nov-07-09 12:06 PM   #70 
           - And I'll bet DLCers are also propagating the "20 years" excuse too.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:17 PM   #73 
              - Are you implying that I'm a DLCer?  Cleita   Nov-07-09 12:29 PM   #85 
                 - No-I'm implying that the DLC/Blue Dogs/etc. likes & benefits from the Catch-22 they created  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:35 PM   #90 
  - Your fear is very much justified.  backscatter712   Nov-07-09 01:09 PM   #112 
     - In other words, the DLC & Blue Dogs will force us to wait 20 years if we dont do what they say.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 01:13 PM   #115 
  - Brilliant. You have your pick then between the Repub healthcare plan or the status quo.  vaberella   Nov-07-09 11:49 AM   #52 
  - Seriously, why cant we go back & work on the bill for a a few more days/weeks until we get it right?  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 11:51 AM   #55 
     - The reason this struggle to pass is because of bluedogs and Repubs.  skipos   Nov-07-09 11:56 AM   #62 
        - So we admit that it is DEMOCRATS who would hold it up for 20 years- good to know.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:04 PM   #68 
  - Then we will get completely wiped out in 2010.  Zynx   Nov-07-09 11:52 AM   #58 
  - Not if we pass a better bill before the midterms. n/t  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 11:53 AM   #59 
     - A "better" bill for most DUers equals a more generous, wide-coverage public option bill, right?  TwilightGardener   Nov-07-09 12:04 PM   #69 
     - I dont like the mandate, and I dont want to wait "20 years" to remove it.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:14 PM   #72 
        - I haven't said anything about 20 years--I don't believe it has to be that way.  TwilightGardener   Nov-07-09 12:27 PM   #81 
           - So we dont have to be wiped out in 2010- we could still pass a strong bill b/f then...  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:28 PM   #84 
           - It's too late in the process to start over again.  Zynx   Nov-07-09 12:54 PM   #105 
              - Who said anything about "starting over"- I suggest we continue the momentum...  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 01:01 PM   #107 
           - Social Security, incidentally, was a lousy program compared to what it is now.  Zynx   Nov-07-09 12:54 PM   #104 
              - Good to know. I still think that we could craft a better bill than this in the next few days/weeks  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 01:02 PM   #108 
     - That is naive to say the least.  Zynx   Nov-07-09 12:35 PM   #89 
        - Our Blue Dog Masters would never allow it, and our "leadership" wont make them compromise.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:36 PM   #92 
           - So you would rather that we fail now, lose the 2010 elections, and try again some 6 election  Zynx   Nov-07-09 12:52 PM   #102 
              - No-I'd rather see some work ethic on the part of DEMS. Who said we have to fail?  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:56 PM   #106 
  - Bottom line is you should not reward someone for criminal behavior  Sebastian Doyle   Nov-07-09 11:57 AM   #63 
  - The problem is that pedohiles have not been generating profits for conservatives  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 01:08 PM   #111 
  - I'm not happy with it one bit, but I think it has to pass as a first step toward  Vinca   Nov-07-09 12:20 PM   #75 
  - why even pretend to be sorry? luckily, you have no say in the matter  Aramchek   Nov-07-09 12:21 PM   #77 
  - "The public option covers practically no one." Nonsense. n/t  ProSense   Nov-07-09 12:23 PM   #78 
  - Thank god you arent voting  Egnever   Nov-07-09 12:25 PM   #79 
  - So you joined the purist bedwetters and the Party of No.  geek tragedy   Nov-07-09 12:32 PM   #87 
  - whiners never prosper. if some people don't get their pony, they don't want anyone to get one  Aramchek   Nov-07-09 12:36 PM   #91 
     - Sounds exactly like something Rush Limabugh would say. n/t  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 12:44 PM   #98 
        - you mean the OP sounds like something Rush would do.  Aramchek   Nov-07-09 01:59 PM   #138 
           - DLC talking points and Rush Limbaugh's insults sound exactly alike- that is what I meant.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 02:46 PM   #156 
              - the OP wants it to fail. you seemed to be defending this position.  Aramchek   Nov-07-09 02:58 PM   #159 
                 - I'll bet the OP would be fine with a good bill being passed before the midterms.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 03:08 PM   #160 
                    - you are silly if you think that this bill could fail, and there would be another chance for HCR  Aramchek   Nov-07-09 04:27 PM   #166 
  - Yeah....you're sorry in this case....  FrenchieCat   Nov-07-09 12:48 PM   #100 
  - 12 million Americans will remain without health care under this bill, and...  IndianaGreen   Nov-07-09 01:04 PM   #109 
  - 42 million more Americans, or nearly 300 million, are covered under this bill n/t  ProSense   Nov-07-09 01:13 PM   #114 
     - No, you are forcing people to purchase insurance under this bill  IndianaGreen   Nov-07-09 01:14 PM   #117 
        - Nonsense. n/t  ProSense   Nov-07-09 01:28 PM   #125 
        - It does people no good to have insurance if  cornermouse   Nov-07-09 01:33 PM   #128 
           - You are basing your assumption on the existing system.  ProSense   Nov-07-09 01:52 PM   #135 
           - I am basing my "assumption" on experience.  cornermouse   Nov-07-09 02:08 PM   #146 
           - Good thing that the reform measures likely enables them to be able to pay it.  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 02:04 PM   #142 
              - It won't.  cornermouse   Nov-07-09 02:11 PM   #147 
        - Its forcing the industry to actually cover people, forcing them to not drop people...  phleshdef   Nov-07-09 01:31 PM   #127 
           - It forces customers into their industry, saving them from competing w/ a strong PO for customers.  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 02:35 PM   #152 
  - Y'know Cali  juno jones   Nov-07-09 01:15 PM   #118 
  - No more ore existing conditions, no more dropping coverage  Egnever   Nov-07-09 02:00 PM   #139 
  - Those two things alone will help me  prolesunited   Nov-07-09 04:11 PM   #164 
  - At what expense?  juno jones   Nov-07-09 10:31 PM   #187 
  - I Agree With Ya Cali... Dump This.. Start Over n/t  ChiciB1   Nov-07-09 04:24 PM   #165 
  - Agreed.  Bonobo   Nov-07-09 01:28 PM   #124 
  - Agreed  Cali_Democrat   Nov-07-09 01:48 PM   #134 
  - This bill is crap and if it passes, the politicians will bury this issue and we will never ...  invictus   Nov-07-09 02:08 PM   #145 
  - That's right  JVS   Nov-07-09 05:18 PM   #170 
  - That means you favor a totally pointless political death  BeyondGeography   Nov-07-09 02:37 PM   #154 
  - Why? Could we not come up with a better bill in the next few days or weeks?  Dr Fate   Nov-07-09 02:51 PM   #158 
     - No...HCR is all-consuming and leadership would conclude there would be no appetite for a do-over  BeyondGeography   Nov-07-09 03:23 PM   #161 
     - When you ask questions like this...  BklnDem75   Nov-07-09 04:43 PM   #167 
     - We can't even wait until next year because the beginning of the year must be consumed with the  ncteechur   Nov-07-09 08:31 PM   #178 
  - First AllentownJake, now you  Hutzpa   Nov-07-09 02:39 PM   #155 
  - Hey there friend  AllentownJake   Nov-07-09 07:11 PM   #173 
     - Just paying attention  Hutzpa   Nov-07-09 07:18 PM   #174 
        - You gotta list?  AllentownJake   Nov-07-09 07:21 PM   #175 
           - I don't need a list  Hutzpa   Nov-07-09 08:30 PM   #177 
  - I sure wish people had SOME idea how a bill...  YvonneCa   Nov-07-09 02:50 PM   #157 
  - I think this is a start and once it's through then we can start building  Rosa Luxemburg   Nov-07-09 03:50 PM   #163 
  - You think they are going to cobble together 218 for single payer when they can barely get 218 for  ncteechur   Nov-07-09 05:12 PM   #168 
  - I don't want it to crash, sorry.  Akoto   Nov-07-09 05:22 PM   #171 
  - As someone who has a preexisting condition I say no thanks on "waiting" for a new bill.  Jennicut   Nov-07-09 07:54 PM   #176 
  - Hello fellow preexisting condition.  vaberella   Nov-07-09 08:37 PM   #180 
  - hey vabrella!  Jennicut   Nov-07-09 08:52 PM   #181 
  - I know and understand everything you're going through.  vaberella   Nov-08-09 06:31 AM   #190 
  - A lot of those opposing the bill don't have these sorts of problems and instead  Zynx   Nov-07-09 09:19 PM   #186 
     - And it makes no sense.  vaberella   Nov-08-09 06:27 AM   #189 
  - Amazing how fellow Democrats want those of us with pre-existing conditions  dave29   Nov-08-09 12:20 PM   #195 
  - that would perhaps be convincing if we didn't have the screwed up system we have  CreekDog   Nov-07-09 08:33 PM   #179 
  - I agree.  joeycola   Nov-07-09 08:55 PM   #182 
  - Shadegg voted present at the same time the CSPAN announcer said he wouldn't.  LLStarks   Nov-07-09 09:16 PM   #185 
  - K & R  winyanstaz   Nov-08-09 08:32 AM   #192 
  - When you say fuck the legislation  POAS   Nov-08-09 09:01 AM   #194 
  - I agree with you...  ljm2002   Nov-08-09 12:44 PM   #196 
 

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