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Reply #31: You just don't get it. [View All]

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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. You just don't get it.
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 04:05 AM by BzaDem
Your entire post is about what you WANT. What would be a GOOD idea.

THAT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

I agree with what you say about our current healthcare system and would be jumping for joy if we could enact a public option. NONE of that changes the fact that it will not be enacted. Ben Nelson alone can kill a 60-vote bill (and would happily do so, switching to the Republican party if the Democrats gave him too much of a hard time about it). Any public option that could survive the procedural hurdles of reconciliation would have to have Medicare (or Medicare+5%) rates, and such a public option would not get enough blue dogs to hit 218 in the house.

This is mathematics. That is simple addition. But you don't attempt to tell me how my addition is wrong. You don't attempt to back up what you say by a list of 218 people in the house and 60 in the Senate to enact a public option (or 218 in the house and 50 in the Senate to enact a public option that can use Medicare's rates and purchasing power). Instead, you are so blue-in-the-face angry by these absolute mathematical facts that you propose ridiculous theories such as "batshit crazy level" as if that will somehow get us any closer to a public option. Your OP is practically the definition of cognitive dissonance. It also is exactly how a 5-year-old acts when he doesn't gets what he wants.

Your argument that we can't get universal healthcare through a mandate to purchase private insurance is bullshit. Absolute bullshit. Switzerland and the Netherlands do not have even a public option. They MANDATE that every person buys insurance from a PRIVATE company. Guess what? They have 99.5%+ coverage. No pre-existing condition discrimination, no lifetime caps, none of it. THAT (or close to it) is what we actually have a chance to pass this year. Such a bill would effectively end medical bankruptcies. It would end pre-existing condition discrimination, subsidize insurance for those who can't afford it, and create highly-regulated exchanges from which to buy it. (Even one of your own examples, Germany, does all this without a public option. They essentially have co-ops. Look it up.)

In some ways, you are worse than all of the Naderites combined. The Naderites prevented Gore from being elected, but Gore wouldn't have been able to pass healthcare because Republicans controlled Congress. So technically, the Naderites weren't personally responsible for all deaths and medical bankruptcies that occured from 2000-2009. But any purported liberal that votes against insuring the uninsured will be responsible and accountable for every death and medical bankruptcy that occurs after 2009. And anyone aiding and abetting them will be similarly responsible.

You say that you don't want to pay private insurance companies one dime. I really don't care what you want. I find it hard to think of something that I could care less about than whether your insurance money goes to a private company or a public one. What I do care about is helping people who are uninsured and who go bankrupt and who die because of lack of affordable health insurance. And I'll be damned if your whining about the corporate identity of the recipient of your premium check is going to prevent real people from getting the help they need.

Normally I wouldn't waste so much time spelling this out, since most people don't even pretend to want to know the facts (such as the single-payer-or-bust crowd). But you often make intelligent and reasonable posts about various issues, and I respect that. That's why I am so frustrated. It seems the otherwise-reasonable people in our party would actually kill healthcare reform (and therefore indirectly kill and bankrupt people) over this.

That is what makes me really lose confidence that the Democratic party can actually get anything done that helps people. It isn't the blue dogs. As much as I would like to see every blue dog voted out of office tomorrow, I realize the mathematical fact that there will always be a middle (according to the law of averages), and that is not going to change. But progressives do have control over is the rationality of the members of the progressive wing. If you succeed, you will indeed find that the "public-option-or-no-reform" crowd will be pariahs within a few years, and anyone still around who voted to kill reform will be stripped of their power in Congress. I just hope we can learn the lesson of *reality* first, so it doesn't have to happen that way.
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  -Liberals: Prepare for Defcon: Level Batshit Crazy grantcart  Sep-08-09 10:28 PM   #0 
  - yes!  villager   Sep-08-09 10:30 PM   #1 
  - Alert! Going Guano!  GreenPartyVoter   Sep-08-09 10:31 PM   #2 
  - Interestingly guano is an excellent source of gunpowder  grantcart   Sep-08-09 10:44 PM   #5 
  - And a floor wax. And a dessert topping.  Canuckistanian   Sep-08-09 10:52 PM   #10 
  - Best laff this week!  FredStembottom   Sep-09-09 10:54 AM   #49 
  - Holy crapola!  kenfrequed   Sep-09-09 12:21 PM   #73 
  - It turns a sandwich into a banquet  RufusTFirefly   Sep-09-09 03:02 PM   #116 
  - a little of that and a pinch of sulfur, and you've got a fireball.  nemo137   Sep-09-09 01:26 AM   #28 
  - 1d6 plus fire damage against anything weak against fire....  TK421   Sep-09-09 02:51 PM   #111 
  - Unfortunately, so is Monsanto, DOW Chemicals and Bayer.  Grinchie   Sep-09-09 01:18 PM   #94 
  - I think you're referring to nitroguanidine.  cognoscere   Sep-09-09 02:38 PM   #108 
  - with froot loops  donquijoterocket   Sep-09-09 04:22 PM   #127 
  - Guano Loco? n/t  krkaufman   Sep-09-09 09:14 PM   #154 
  - WE NEED FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE ON THE MALL.  cliffordu   Sep-08-09 10:42 PM   #3 
  - fucking crickets  cliffordu   Sep-09-09 01:07 AM   #27 
  - Fucking crickets.  Wednesdays   Sep-09-09 10:37 PM   #163 
  - I will go  Voltaire   Sep-09-09 07:40 AM   #32 
  - I would go too...  bc3000   Sep-09-09 01:37 PM   #98 
  - I don't know how to organize it, but I know who does  demwing   Sep-09-09 09:33 AM   #35 
  - I WILL BE THERE if we can get SOMETHING started.  cliffordu   Sep-09-09 11:35 AM   #58 
  - We Need a General Strike  Demeter   Sep-09-09 12:18 PM   #72 
     - NOW YOU'RE TALKING!!!!  cliffordu   Sep-09-09 12:42 PM   #80 
     - YESSSS Strike  pundaint   Sep-09-09 12:46 PM   #84 
     - I'm with you Demeter, but I've been on strike since 2003  Grinchie   Sep-09-09 01:34 PM   #96 
     - AB-SO-FREAKIN-LOUTELY!!!  Left Coast2020   Sep-09-09 03:03 PM   #117 
     - that's why  druidity33   Sep-09-09 03:06 PM   #118 
     - I'm self-employed, how do I do that? /nt  jberryhill   Sep-09-09 03:09 PM   #119 
        - Take a Day Off, and Tell Your Customers Why  Demeter   Sep-09-09 05:49 PM   #137 
  - It's time to remind these useless Repukes in Democratic clothing who elected a goddamn majority.  Sebastian Doyle   Sep-08-09 10:43 PM   #4 
  - Funny!  Robber M   Sep-09-09 01:04 AM   #26 
  - Oooo I like when you talk dirty - exactly - nt  lyonn   Sep-09-09 12:42 PM   #79 
  - All true, all good, but who will lead? nt  fadedrose   Sep-08-09 10:45 PM   #6 
  - Someone get Dr Dean on the phone  demwing   Sep-09-09 09:35 AM   #36 
     - The Clinton gang is still in power from what I gather..  fadedrose   Sep-09-09 02:35 PM   #106 
  - Agree. I'm done with Clintonian triangulation. We need robust, proud liberalism.  Arugula Latte   Sep-08-09 10:46 PM   #7 
  - Are you getting tired of Obamas surge to the right?  lark   Sep-09-09 06:04 PM   #139 
  - Damn wise words.  rucky   Sep-08-09 10:48 PM   #8 
  - It's not even reasonableness. It's a matter of counting noses.  MrModerate   Sep-08-09 10:50 PM   #9 
  - I say that if the other side doesnt want to compromise for PO then we go for single payer  rhett o rick   Sep-08-09 10:54 PM   #11 
  - I agree - taking single payer off the table to early moved the central  grantcart   Sep-08-09 10:58 PM   #12 
  - Agree. nt  rhett o rick   Sep-08-09 10:59 PM   #13 
  - how about a medicare buy-in?  yodermon   Sep-09-09 11:33 AM   #57 
     - Close to 60% of the people in this country........  SergeStorms   Sep-09-09 12:10 PM   #69 
  - I TOTALLY AGREE  dotymed   Sep-09-09 12:47 PM   #85 
  - +28  inna   Sep-08-09 10:59 PM   #14 
  - k/r  ccharles000   Sep-08-09 11:05 PM   #15 
  - So I take it you're in favor of the President  ruggerson   Sep-08-09 11:07 PM   #16 
  - It would make my day  grantcart   Sep-08-09 11:46 PM   #23 
  - I think I agree with you  ruggerson   Sep-08-09 11:54 PM   #24 
  - At this point, I am.  FredStembottom   Sep-09-09 10:58 AM   #50 
  - Oh, I'm ready for that Defcon Level..  NYC_SKP   Sep-08-09 11:15 PM   #17 
  - Yes, by all means let's kill health care reform now so that we can maybe get something better  Marsala   Sep-08-09 11:25 PM   #18 
  - Or we could just settle for what they hand us and be grateful they let us play at all...  cliffordu   Sep-08-09 11:28 PM   #20 
  - THAT Is What THEY Are Counting On!! THEY Want Us To Sit Back  ChiciB1   Sep-09-09 01:14 PM   #92 
  - If it doesn't have a Public Option it is not reform  grantcart   Sep-08-09 11:46 PM   #22 
  - Your right. something might go wrong  demwing   Sep-09-09 09:39 AM   #37 
  - I'm finished listening to speeches from Obama.  Grinchie   Sep-09-09 01:53 PM   #99 
  - It won't be 10 or 20 years this time...  Chan790   Sep-09-09 11:41 AM   #59 
  - No, let's whittle it down to the point where still, the GOP won't support it  PVnRT   Sep-09-09 11:42 AM   #61 
  - Without the PO the insurance companies win big  lyonn   Sep-09-09 01:03 PM   #90 
  - Or we can take a compromise now  quakerboy   Sep-09-09 08:37 PM   #152 
  - I gave you a K&R, whiner.  cliffordu   Sep-08-09 11:27 PM   #19 
  - Aye aye, sir!  janx   Sep-08-09 11:33 PM   #21 
  - There's no need to be unreasonable: but there's no reason to "compromise" with wackos, either  struggle4progress   Sep-09-09 12:49 AM   #25 
  - If liberals do this, they will be taken even LESS seriously in the future.  BzaDem   Sep-09-09 01:27 AM   #29 
  - A bunch of liberals did not do this in 2000  grantcart   Sep-09-09 02:18 AM   #30 
  - You just don't get it.  BzaDem   Sep-09-09 03:38 AM   #31 
     - Grantcart has demonstrated an extraordinarily KEEN awareness of the numbers in the past  stevenleser   Sep-09-09 09:28 AM   #34 
     - Thank you, stevenleser!  FredStembottom   Sep-09-09 11:24 AM   #53 
     - Why couldn't Clinton even pass a bill in the house?  BzaDem   Sep-09-09 04:19 PM   #125 
     - You are funny!  Bluenorthwest   Sep-09-09 10:42 AM   #44 
     - Your ignorance of health care outside of the US is staggering  grantcart   Sep-09-09 10:47 AM   #45 
     - The Swiss have the highest suicide rate by far in Europe.  AlbertCat   Sep-09-09 12:16 PM   #71 
     - It has nothing to do with the gun laws  grantcart   Sep-09-09 02:17 PM   #102 
     - While attempting to deny what I'm saying, you actually support much of it.  BzaDem   Sep-09-09 04:15 PM   #123 
     - I hadn't had a chance to read this outstanding OP before answering your  grantcart   Sep-09-09 10:52 AM   #48 
     - You are responding to an argument that I never made at ALL.  BzaDem   Sep-09-09 04:16 PM   #124 
        - Your incremental take a tiny lit bit of good in exchange for massive  grantcart   Sep-09-09 05:03 PM   #135 
     - +1000  treestar   Sep-09-09 11:29 AM   #55 
     - THE MAJORITY OF "MEDICALLY INDUCED" BANKRUPTCIES  dotymed   Sep-09-09 01:00 PM   #89 
     - Right....  Grinchie   Sep-09-09 02:15 PM   #101 
     - Switzerland and the Netherlands regulate the HELL out of their insurance companies:  Lydia Leftcoast   Sep-09-09 03:00 PM   #115 
     - Don't look now, but thats essentially what the insurance exchanges do.  BzaDem   Sep-09-09 04:25 PM   #128 
        - Which plan is that?  Lydia Leftcoast   Sep-09-09 04:41 PM   #131 
        - the level of regulation in Switzerland and Netherlands is much much more  grantcart   Sep-09-09 05:01 PM   #134 
        - Or not...  ProudDad   Sep-09-09 08:35 PM   #151 
     - Sorry - but YOU are the one that doesn't "get it" - and YOU will be the sorry one...  TankLV   Sep-09-09 09:58 PM   #158 
  - You must remember, please.  FredStembottom   Sep-09-09 11:07 AM   #51 
  - you wish  fascisthunter   Sep-09-09 11:41 AM   #60 
  - All we ever do is compromise...  Chan790   Sep-09-09 11:48 AM   #62 
  - Nader wasn't on the Green ticket in 2004, genius  PVnRT   Sep-09-09 11:48 AM   #64 
  - Yeah, blame us liberals because Al Gore ran a shitty campaign and chose Lieberman as  ShortnFiery   Sep-09-09 12:30 PM   #76 
  - Liberals aren't taken seriously NOW. Yes DO THIS! NO public option, no bill  digidigido   Sep-09-09 12:44 PM   #81 
  - What a bunch of Bull...  Grinchie   Sep-09-09 02:00 PM   #100 
  - And If We WIN (And We Will) We Will Be More Powerful Than We Have Been In A LOOOONG Time  Beetwasher   Sep-09-09 09:16 AM   #33 
  - Exactly right. When progressives cave on moderate positions  Tom Rinaldo   Sep-09-09 09:46 AM   #38 
  - It isn't too negotiate with the Republicans - it is to serve their corporate masters  debbierlus   Sep-09-09 10:13 AM   #41 
  - Amen & hallelujah! nt  Doremus   Sep-09-09 09:51 AM   #39 
  - Standing up for what you believe in and fighting for it isn't bat shit crazy  debbierlus   Sep-09-09 10:05 AM   #40 
  - Batshit isn't required, contextual, or applicable  TheKentuckian   Sep-09-09 10:14 AM   #42 
  - i'm already batshit, so i'm upgrading to sociopath...  Soylent Brice   Sep-09-09 10:31 AM   #43 
  - I know what you mean  grantcart   Sep-09-09 10:48 AM   #46 
     - good, then i'll have someone to keep me and me and me company. n/t  Soylent Brice   Sep-09-09 11:12 AM   #52 
  - Public Option - with no trigger! n/t  drm604   Sep-09-09 10:49 AM   #47 
  - Okay. I'm going into the Bat Cave and dust off my Bat Man suit and . . . wait,  bertman   Sep-09-09 11:29 AM   #54 
  - I think we're all pretty much  Cha   Sep-09-09 11:32 AM   #56 
  - No kidding  Peacetrain   Sep-09-09 11:49 AM   #66 
  - You mean we shouldn't settle for nothing while, at the same time, give insurance companies  valerief   Sep-09-09 11:48 AM   #63 
  - Why is expecting excellence going "bat shit crazy"?  AlbertCat   Sep-09-09 11:48 AM   #65 
  - expecting excellence is not "bat shit crazy"  grantcart   Sep-09-09 12:46 PM   #83 
  - ALBERTCAT....AMEN  dotymed   Sep-09-09 01:07 PM   #91 
  - You nailed it. It less expensive to do it right the first time.  Grinchie   Sep-09-09 02:24 PM   #104 
  - We need to get rid of the Senate. Just dump them. Kaput! nt  valerief   Sep-09-09 11:50 AM   #67 
  - dont stop there  pundaint   Sep-09-09 12:52 PM   #86 
  - Yep, K&R grantcart  SlingBlade   Sep-09-09 11:53 AM   #68 
  - Please. Today let's show a little reverence for the GOP.  12AngryBorneoWildmen   Sep-09-09 12:11 PM   #70 
  - Amen! My friends and family say I'm already half-way THERE.  ShortnFiery   Sep-09-09 12:26 PM   #74 
  - Yep - the squeaky wheel. nt  polichick   Sep-09-09 12:28 PM   #75 
  - No quarter asked nor given. It's time to go to the mat. [nt]  Jester Messiah   Sep-09-09 12:31 PM   #77 
  - My gawd I'm pissed, no more Mr. Nice Guy  lyonn   Sep-09-09 12:37 PM   #78 
  - Ticktickticktick....  nolabear   Sep-09-09 12:45 PM   #82 
  - Indeed; Its batshit crazy I,ll be if robust public option crashes. kr nt  ooglymoogly   Sep-09-09 12:52 PM   #87 
  - Okay, putting on my aluminum foil hat and clown nose.  Deep13   Sep-09-09 12:53 PM   #88 
  - Finally Grantcart, you seem to have met your Boundary condition  Grinchie   Sep-09-09 01:14 PM   #93 
  - Sometimes you hire a crook to catch a crook  grantcart   Sep-09-09 02:22 PM   #103 
     - How about hiring a smart investigator instead of a guy on the payroll of the cabal?  Grinchie   Sep-09-09 02:51 PM   #110 
  - Agreed.  zeemike   Sep-09-09 01:34 PM   #95 
  - I totally agree with you.  Vinca   Sep-09-09 01:36 PM   #97 
  - Oh yeah baby. You don't want to piss of the left.  windoe   Sep-09-09 02:31 PM   #105 
  - YUP - stop being "NICE" to Unreasonable and Irrational  katty   Sep-09-09 02:36 PM   #107 
  - I believe you are right. I hoped single payer would happen in my  Paper Roses   Sep-09-09 02:39 PM   #109 
  - Totally agree  Blasphemer   Sep-09-09 02:52 PM   #112 
  - We at DU have been batshit crazy for a long time.  Common Sense Party   Sep-09-09 02:58 PM   #113 
  - Agreed! We have to now take it to the streets  RoccoR5955   Sep-09-09 02:59 PM   #114 
  - extracurricular politics have naught to do with the democratic party  tiny elvis   Sep-09-09 03:10 PM   #120 
  - WHAT CAN WE DO?  aikanae   Sep-09-09 04:08 PM   #121 
  - a couple of things  grantcart   Sep-09-09 04:15 PM   #122 
     - K&R n/t  OneGrassRoot   Sep-09-09 04:31 PM   #130 
  - You got THAT right!  Ikkru   Sep-09-09 04:20 PM   #126 
  - I'll just watch.  Sky Masterson   Sep-09-09 04:30 PM   #129 
  - K&R  TransitJohn   Sep-09-09 04:43 PM   #132 
  - I love it!  man4allcats   Sep-09-09 05:00 PM   #133 
  - Line in the sand, litmus test, whatever.  hay rick   Sep-09-09 05:11 PM   #136 
  - Moonbat checking in...  Swamp Rat   Sep-09-09 05:59 PM   #138 
  - Thank you  varelse   Sep-09-09 06:21 PM   #140 
  - In the words of a mccain supporter..  yeswecanandwedid   Sep-09-09 06:25 PM   #141 
  - I'm always a few seconds away from Batshit crazy  proud patriot   Sep-09-09 06:29 PM   #142 
  - I am fired up and ready to go bat shit crazy! I hope I don't have to though but if I do I'm ready!  1776Forever   Sep-09-09 06:35 PM   #143 
  - now that's what I am talking about  grantcart   Sep-09-09 06:54 PM   #144 
  - I wouldn't make comparisons...  renman59   Sep-09-09 07:05 PM   #145 
  - All true, but our reps are cowards, and Glenn Beck is now King of the US  Doctor_J   Sep-09-09 07:11 PM   #146 
  - knr  wroberts189   Sep-09-09 07:13 PM   #147 
  - I got my crazy powder.  knixphan   Sep-09-09 07:17 PM   #148 
  - After the speech, it's DEFCON !  RoccoR5955   Sep-09-09 08:15 PM   #149 
  - Right on.  Clear Blue Sky   Sep-09-09 08:21 PM   #150 
  - I don't have a problem w/ that. My family already thinks  xxqqqzme   Sep-09-09 08:39 PM   #153 
  - As I see it ...  NikkiN   Sep-09-09 09:49 PM   #155 
  - yep a large show  grantcart   Sep-09-09 09:51 PM   #157 
  - Agree, but what you call batshit crazy, I call acting with intention.  earcandle   Sep-09-09 09:50 PM   #156 
  - well I don't think Defcon: Level Acting with Attention  grantcart   Sep-09-09 09:59 PM   #159 
     - what is a "defcon"? and if you are speaking to me, I said acting with Intention, not Attention.  earcandle   Sep-09-09 10:35 PM   #162 
        - defcon: Defense readiness condition - outlines the military's readiness for war  grantcart   Sep-09-09 10:50 PM   #165 
  - Here's to batshit all around!  lonestarnot   Sep-09-09 10:26 PM   #160 
  - Nice work grantcart.  midnight   Sep-09-09 10:30 PM   #161 
  - Bat Sh*t Crazy - Oh Yes!  colsohlibgal   Sep-09-09 10:46 PM   #164 
     - I am really pissed, dissappointed we are supporting this industry that makes us sick and profits  earcandle   Sep-09-09 10:53 PM   #166 
 

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