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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
142. Clearcutting can sometimes be a better option
With selective cuts, you have to maintain a road network, and roads cause MUCH more damage yearly in the national forests than clearcuts do.
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  -Folks. There is a big difference between a National Forest vs. a National Park LynneSin  Jul-17-09 03:21 PM   #0 
  - do we really want to keep turning mature forests -- watersheds -- into tree farms  villager   Jul-17-09 03:23 PM   #1 
  - If we were talking more than 0.00224% of Tongass perhaps I'd be concerned  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:28 PM   #3 
  - you should be concerned, because that's what the ag dept. has been doing for years  villager   Jul-17-09 03:30 PM   #9 
  - Point of clarification:  Robb   Jul-17-09 03:33 PM   #13 
  - yet none in the wild area where they are going to put new ones  villager   Jul-17-09 03:49 PM   #24 
  - Tell me how much Ancient Virgin Old growth is there in National Parks?  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 07:26 AM   #91 
     - Which ones?  Robb   Jul-18-09 09:11 AM   #99 
        - Whats salient about the question ? All of them.  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 11:29 AM   #100 
        - Excellent find.  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-20-09 11:41 AM   #152 
  - Two things  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:38 PM   #17 
     - except that this comes on top of okaying wolf kills, mountaintop removals, etc.  villager   Jul-17-09 03:53 PM   #28 
        - I know mountaintop removals were one of the first Bush rules that Obama overturned  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 04:06 PM   #41 
  - Do you ahve any idea how deceptive that percentage is?  joeybee12   Jul-17-09 03:48 PM   #23 
  - exactly -- no one thinks in ecosystem/watershed terms  villager   Jul-17-09 03:50 PM   #25 
  - I know there is more to be read about this  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:55 PM   #29 
     - I'm not sure, Lynne, that just because our gov't has been doing something since the late 19th  villager   Jul-17-09 04:02 PM   #36 
     - Yes, but we're talking about a rain forest, one of the last in the world...  joeybee12   Jul-17-09 04:29 PM   #54 
  - Actually there is a clean-up plan with it  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:52 PM   #26 
  - you'll note that citation says this will happen in a designated roadless area  villager   Jul-17-09 04:03 PM   #38 
  - I'm not saying it's perfect - just sharing the facts with everyone  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 04:04 PM   #40 
     - oh, we have more than environmental decision to judge his administration on  villager   Jul-17-09 04:07 PM   #42 
     - How much Ancient Old Growth is there in National Parks?  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 07:32 AM   #94 
  - Betcha they are gonna replant it with a single species of fast-growing  kestrel91316   Jul-18-09 11:37 AM   #102 
  - there already are logging roads close to the area because adjacent areas were  quiller4   Jul-17-09 04:34 PM   #55 
  - Done properly  fifthoffive   Jul-20-09 11:17 AM   #150 
  - The percentage may be small,  bvar22   Jul-17-09 08:11 PM   #72 
  - Actually, I agree. The precedent is not good, but we're talking about a very small  LittleBlue   Jul-17-09 08:41 PM   #76 
  - Well almost every environmental group  Mojorabbit   Jul-17-09 11:13 PM   #78 
  - +1, villager.  Enthusiast   Jul-20-09 01:33 AM   #141 
     - It is a valid choice  fifthoffive   Jul-20-09 11:13 AM   #149 
        - It sucks to high heaven.  Enthusiast   Jul-20-09 04:39 PM   #154 
  - thank you lynn, for settingthe record straight.  dionysus   Jul-17-09 03:23 PM   #2 
  - Just so you know I do respect those who still have issues  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:29 PM   #5 
  - Yes, much thanks is due here.  jkshaw   Jul-17-09 03:37 PM   #16 
  - "to see people scream that Obama is worthless, shouldn't be re-elected ..."  redqueen   Jul-17-09 03:29 PM   #4 
  - That's true but for those on the fence I like to share facts  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:29 PM   #8 
     - And I appreciate your doing it...  redqueen   Jul-17-09 03:37 PM   #15 
     - Thanks, Lynne, it is  Cha   Jul-17-09 03:59 PM   #35 
  - It's not the logging per se that I'm against  Blue_In_AK   Jul-17-09 03:29 PM   #6 
  - I'm still concerned on that one  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:31 PM   #10 
  - Doesn't matter... we're to cut down NO trees ever again  scheming daemons   Jul-17-09 03:29 PM   #7 
  - The Wilderness Area situation in Tongass is even more complex.  Robb   Jul-17-09 03:32 PM   #11 
  - 17 million acres and there has been logging in Tongass since 1950  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:40 PM   #19 
  - ...Of which 5 acres are Wilderness  Robb   Jul-17-09 07:49 PM   #67 
  - "17 million acres" is deceptive, you shouldn't use that number  noamnety   Jul-18-09 01:16 AM   #87 
  - "good habitat" isn't one thing.  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-18-09 05:03 PM   #129 
  - They have been logging the Tongass long before the 50s  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 07:22 AM   #90 
  - We have specific exceptions to a lot of the Lower 48 rules  Blue_In_AK   Jul-17-09 03:53 PM   #27 
  - Interesting statistics  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:58 PM   #30 
     - Oh, no, I didn't think you were cheerleading.  Blue_In_AK   Jul-17-09 04:10 PM   #47 
        - I'll read about that when I get home  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 04:15 PM   #50 
  - The Designated Wilderness are in Higher Elevations containing,  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 11:46 AM   #103 
  - Sustainable logging, no clear cuts  sandnsea   Jul-17-09 03:32 PM   #12 
  - That bothers me  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:59 PM   #33 
  - Clearcutting can sometimes be a better option  XemaSab   Jul-20-09 05:00 AM   #142 
  - Burn it all down. Use is all up. Wheeeeee!  Jakes Progress   Jul-17-09 03:36 PM   #14 
  - You do realize that trees are a "renewable resource", right?  scheming daemons   Jul-17-09 03:45 PM   #21 
  - You do realize what "old growth" means, right?  Jakes Progress   Jul-17-09 03:59 PM   #32 
  - Having spent most of my childhood in the Cascade mountains I can tell  grantcart   Jul-18-09 12:19 AM   #80 
  - you do realize that "forests," in the profoundest sense, are not?  villager   Jul-17-09 04:08 PM   #44 
  - Trees *can* be grown like cabbages and corn.  boppers   Jul-17-09 04:23 PM   #53 
     - you have a brilliant future in store for you at Weyerhauser, then  villager   Jul-17-09 04:55 PM   #61 
        - Entire ecosystems can be destroyed.  boppers   Jul-17-09 05:01 PM   #62 
           - yes -- but I wouldn't want to view wilderness the same way  villager   Jul-17-09 10:53 PM   #77 
  - While it's true that trees are renewable, old growth forests take hundreds of years to grow.  Arkansas Granny   Jul-17-09 04:09 PM   #45 
     - Pine and fur don't grow for hundreds of years. They grow a few decades  grantcart   Jul-18-09 12:20 AM   #81 
        - Forests have a finite life span  Kaleva   Jul-18-09 01:10 AM   #86 
        - Wow. Who taught you that?  sandnsea   Jul-18-09 01:37 PM   #111 
  - Wow, interesting that most of these forests are still intact since 1891,  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:47 PM   #22 
     - Gosh. Let's cut 'em down then.  Jakes Progress   Jul-17-09 03:58 PM   #31 
     - Since 1891 we've had plenty of democrats and republicans  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 04:03 PM   #39 
     - What has that to do with the subject/  Jakes Progress   Jul-17-09 07:00 PM   #64 
        - Nothing, it has to do with what I replied to  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 07:16 PM   #66 
     - Rec this post.  TBF   Jul-22-09 08:50 AM   #155 
     - that must be why large wildlife has "thrived" since then, I guess...  villager   Jul-17-09 04:16 PM   #51 
  - I am against public land being used for provate profit. Especially  tekisui   Jul-17-09 03:38 PM   #18 
  - But you do understand the purpose of the National Forest is to monitor resource gathering  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 03:44 PM   #20 
  - I recognize the difference.  tekisui   Jul-17-09 03:59 PM   #34 
     - I definately agree with your 2nd sentence  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 04:08 PM   #43 
     - I use public roads for private profit  Kaleva   Jul-17-09 08:00 PM   #71 
        - Fascist pig. Build your own roads.  anonymous171   Jul-18-09 12:03 PM   #107 
  - Better it all be in private hands  sandnsea   Jul-17-09 04:03 PM   #37 
  - Timber companies with private holdings are often better resource stewards  XemaSab   Jul-20-09 05:04 AM   #143 
  - National parks and wildneresses are intended to be pristine ecosystems.  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-18-09 04:59 PM   #128 
  - Also, it is not, as some have claimed, the last temperate rainforest in the country  jmondine   Jul-17-09 04:09 PM   #46 
  - It would be nice if Obama turned Tongass into a National Park  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 04:13 PM   #48 
  - Rafting down the Hoh river was awesome. Rec'd to everybody.  BlooInBloo   Jul-17-09 04:47 PM   #58 
  - Redwood country is a temperate rainforest too  XemaSab   Jul-20-09 05:06 AM   #144 
  - As I mentioned in a previous thread, I don't see how this action reconciles with Obama's  Arkansas Granny   Jul-17-09 04:13 PM   #49 
  - Only for that fiscal year  Kaleva   Jul-17-09 07:55 PM   #69 
  - I'm not that well versed on this issue and your explanation is very detailed.  vaberella   Jul-17-09 04:19 PM   #52 
  - For more from the original story, see treegirl's comments....  BlooInBloo   Jul-17-09 04:39 PM   #57 
     - Yes, I read them yesterday. n/t  vaberella   Jul-17-09 07:51 PM   #68 
  - But it's fun to ignore those facts, if all you want to do it whine about Obama,  BlooInBloo   Jul-17-09 04:36 PM   #56 
  - I saw references to "Obummer" and "bots" in that thread  AspenRose   Jul-17-09 04:50 PM   #59 
     - Of course. And those who claim to be "legitimate critics" just stand by and watch it happen...  BlooInBloo   Jul-17-09 04:55 PM   #60 
  - Can we separate the issues?  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-17-09 05:29 PM   #63 
  - OMG what a great read  LynneSin   Jul-17-09 07:10 PM   #65 
  - From the timber industry view  sandnsea   Jul-18-09 01:58 PM   #115 
  - Good info!  Kaleva   Jul-17-09 07:58 PM   #70 
  - also another point on clearcutting and age is the fact that  grantcart   Jul-18-09 12:23 AM   #82 
  - The Tongass is a Rain forest , No fires there. and if they have fires  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 12:15 PM   #109 
  - Fires are by definition clear cut events?  XemaSab   Jul-20-09 05:09 AM   #145 
  - I remember reading a little of the business side of it  noamnety   Jul-18-09 01:37 AM   #88 
  - Clear cutting is why a 35 year old tree doesn't mature  sandnsea   Jul-18-09 01:58 PM   #114 
     - Weyerhaueser, the local governments who own forests, friends in fisheries & habitat restoration...  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-18-09 04:07 PM   #125 
  - I see the results of clear cuts on a regular basis  Bluenorthwest   Jul-17-09 08:17 PM   #73 
  - I see it often myself  Kaleva   Jul-17-09 08:22 PM   #74 
     - They also degrade water quality and destroy fish habitat  depakid   Jul-18-09 07:32 AM   #93 
     - and in 10 more years they're toothpicks  sandnsea   Jul-18-09 02:09 PM   #117 
  - This is a great disappointment  Raine   Jul-17-09 08:28 PM   #75 
  - But you do understand that this is what the National Forests are for  LynneSin   Jul-18-09 08:31 AM   #98 
  - Also consider that he SAVED 2.6 MILLION acres in Oregon.  johnaries   Jul-18-09 12:13 AM   #79 
  - Somene in that thread pointed out this is deceptive.  noamnety   Jul-18-09 01:48 AM   #89 
  - NO, he definitely "saved" it. It was designated to be cut  johnaries   Jul-18-09 11:54 AM   #104 
  - He ended WOPR  sandnsea   Jul-18-09 01:38 PM   #112 
  - How much Ancient Old Growth is there left in Oregon? Try ...  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 08:01 AM   #95 
     - WRONG! Check your facts before you spew. nt  johnaries   Jul-18-09 11:57 AM   #105 
        - Ok snarky guy from Nashville Where is Oregons Old Growth?  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 12:17 PM   #110 
           - *sigh*  sandnsea   Jul-18-09 01:41 PM   #113 
           - I live on the planet Earth , Just because there are a few small groves  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 02:59 PM   #120 
              - Another logger  sandnsea   Jul-18-09 03:49 PM   #123 
                 - You seem to be reading something in my post that I'm not advocating  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 06:22 PM   #130 
                 - The OP was stating that because the Tongass is a National Forest  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 07:03 PM   #131 
                    - You said there is no Old Growth in Oregon  sandnsea   Jul-18-09 08:36 PM   #132 
                    - National parks AND protected wilderness areas.  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-19-09 12:49 PM   #133 
                       - Neither contains Temperate Rain Forest, the Tongass is Unique.  bahrbearian   Jul-19-09 09:48 PM   #135 
                          - No, never. Only place I've been to in Alaska is Fairbanks.  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-19-09 10:13 PM   #137 
                             - Misty fjords is called the Yosemite of the North  bahrbearian   Jul-19-09 10:35 PM   #138 
                                - Are you sure you're not thinking of Glacier Bay?  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-19-09 10:57 PM   #139 
                                   - Most of the forest consists of old-growth timber stands undisturbed by man.  bahrbearian   Jul-20-09 08:10 AM   #147 
                                      - Here are some links  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-20-09 09:33 AM   #148 
                                         - So ask your self having never been there why are there no roads  bahrbearian   Jul-20-09 11:26 AM   #151 
           - OK, to be honest I've never been to Oregon - BUT  johnaries   Jul-18-09 02:30 PM   #119 
              - From your Wikipedia Post  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 03:03 PM   #121 
                 - OK, I don't know anything about the Central Cascades. What  johnaries   Jul-18-09 03:21 PM   #122 
                    - There is a ton of Old Growth in Oregon  sandnsea   Jul-18-09 03:51 PM   #124 
                       - Me either. Unless he's trying to sidetrack us?  johnaries   Jul-18-09 04:46 PM   #127 
  - Have you ever been to the Tongass?  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 12:40 AM   #83 
  - They build ski resorts on Virgin Old Growth, wow thats news.  bahrbearian   Jul-18-09 12:43 AM   #84 
  - Spoken like a true east-coaster  jclincali   Jul-18-09 12:53 AM   #85 
  - No, spoken like someone who read what the function of National Forests are  LynneSin   Jul-18-09 08:25 AM   #97 
  - You obviously hold a different view from those who care about pristine areas.  Honeycombe8   Jul-18-09 07:31 AM   #92 
  - I know what the damage is done with logging  LynneSin   Jul-18-09 08:22 AM   #96 
  - Clearcutting, except in very small areas, is environmentally irresponsible.  kestrel91316   Jul-18-09 11:33 AM   #101 
  - Ski Resorts do more damage?  Honeycombe8   Jul-18-09 12:00 PM   #106 
  - Who is fighting against ski resorts?  sandnsea   Jul-18-09 02:01 PM   #116 
  - K&R. nt  anonymous171   Jul-18-09 12:04 PM   #108 
  - Yeah, one's for sale and the other isn't - Yet. nt  Umbral   Jul-18-09 02:10 PM   #118 
  - It's not the logging I'm against, it's the clear-cutting.  Odin2005   Jul-18-09 04:36 PM   #126 
  - Techniques that are good in one place are not necessarily good in every place.  lumberjack_jeff   Jul-19-09 01:02 PM   #134 
  - why don't we pave paradise and put up a parking lot  natrat   Jul-19-09 10:09 PM   #136 
  - Good point Lynne  CreekDog   Jul-20-09 12:30 AM   #140 
  - Thanks for posting this  XemaSab   Jul-20-09 05:19 AM   #146 
  - Thank for bringing FACTS to this matter  SpartanDem   Jul-20-09 11:56 AM   #153 
 

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