PeaceNikki
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Sun Apr-19-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #178 |
| 179. Those principles relate to international law - not US law. |
|
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 09:18 AM by PeaceNikki
And the DoJ clarification ok'd it under US law. They should not be prosecuted because they cannot be convicted - under US law that predated Bush and Obama by decades. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... Under *US* law, the people in the field shouldn''t be found guilty.
And they would be tried under US law. It's unethical (meaning, could result in sanctions or disbarment) for a prosecutor to prosecute something he or she knows can't or shouldn't result in a conviction.
International law may well be different...but the United States Justice Department would be prosecuting American citizens who did something that the United States Justice Department said was OK. Aside from the facial absurdity of that, the Justice Department is limited to American law.
/cue the chorus of "Well, drag them to The Hague and let them hang there" |
| -So let me get this straight here. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-16-09 11:45 PM |
#0 |
 -
I can't find the link to that Scottish lady singing that song |
leftstreet |
Apr-16-09 11:47 PM |
#1 |
 -
... |
Patsy Stone |
Apr-16-09 11:57 PM |
#11 |
| -
!! |
Richardo |
Apr-17-09 10:47 AM |
#69 |
 -
Go To |
debunkthelies |
Apr-17-09 03:09 PM |
#102 |
| -
Just listened to her recording of "Cry Me a River". Wowser! |
classof56 |
Apr-17-09 03:58 PM |
#110 |
| -
Summary: |
geek tragedy |
Apr-16-09 11:48 PM |
#2 |
| -
You're on a roll this week. |
Nicholas D Wolfwood |
Apr-17-09 02:27 PM |
#90 |
| -
Yep. Boggles the mind. No matter what he does, he's going to catch shit for it. NT |
MADem |
Apr-16-09 11:48 PM |
#3 |
| -
It seems like there's an anti Obama cult as well as a pro Obama cult |
Richd506 |
Apr-17-09 02:33 PM |
#94 |
| -
The former are a bit more obnoxious than the latter, though. |
MADem |
Apr-17-09 02:56 PM |
#100 |
| -
So if someone commits a crime in your neighborhood, if the police |
mmonk |
Apr-16-09 11:49 PM |
#4 |
| -
You are missing a critical piece. It would be something the police told them was legal and then |
Pirate Smile |
Apr-16-09 11:52 PM |
#7 |
| -
That is absolutely correct. I cannot imagine anyone approving of a situation in which |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-16-09 11:57 PM |
#12 |
| -
That doesn't even deal with the practical realities that the police commissioner would need people |
Pirate Smile |
Apr-17-09 12:04 AM |
#16 |
| -
The problem for me is that I don't care about pro-transperency as much as |
truedelphi |
Apr-17-09 12:48 AM |
#30 |
| -
Indeed torture is wrong, and nobody has ever doubted or denied that, at any level. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:52 AM |
#32 |
| -
You say, further down, |
truedelphi |
Apr-17-09 01:11 AM |
#36 |
| -
Who said we couldn't go after Bush and Cheney? |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 01:26 AM |
#41 |
| -
Every child in school |
Mojorabbit |
Apr-17-09 02:53 AM |
#52 |
| -
Plus for some of these people, they could always change jobs. After all, |
truedelphi |
Apr-17-09 02:55 PM |
#98 |
| -
Seconded |
ArcticFox |
Apr-17-09 03:38 PM |
#107 |
| -
Wow! That is an excellent point. You say: |
truedelphi |
Apr-17-09 03:52 PM |
#109 |
| -
Except you are ignorning the fact that torture has always been illegal --- |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 09:53 PM |
#134 |
| -
True, but what constitutes torture was different in the Bush administration |
MadBadger |
Apr-17-09 10:13 PM |
#139 |
| -
No . . they attempted to corrupt the Geneva Accords, the Constitution and Military laws .. . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:38 PM |
#154 |
| -
So it's okay to torture children? |
proud2BlibKansan |
Apr-17-09 10:48 PM |
#155 |
| -
So you're saying these are things you'd do . . . ? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-18-09 12:41 AM |
#158 |
| -
Who cares if they were directed to do it? |
silverojo |
Apr-17-09 12:22 AM |
#21 |
| -
I might well say "no sane person would join the CIA." That's meaningless. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:29 AM |
#23 |
| -
Forget that you would lose your job. |
Nicholas D Wolfwood |
Apr-17-09 02:32 PM |
#93 |
| -
That critical piece being slamming people's heads against |
kas125 |
Apr-17-09 02:07 AM |
#45 |
| -
The Law doesn't do "right and wrong" or "personal judgments" |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 10:45 AM |
#66 |
| -
Exactly . . . and it's exactly what the military wants . . . robots surrendering conscience...!!! |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 09:57 PM |
#136 |
| -
kas125, you wrote: |
tblue37 |
Apr-17-09 09:58 PM |
#137 |
| -
Almost, but not quite |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 10:43 AM |
#64 |
| -
Still not a defense |
moodforaday |
Apr-17-09 11:47 AM |
#81 |
| -
Except we're not talking about the people who are at fault here. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-16-09 11:53 PM |
#8 |
| -
Do you really expect people to believe that they didn't KNOW |
kas125 |
Apr-17-09 02:12 AM |
#47 |
| -
The laws of the civilized people of the United States |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 10:47 AM |
#68 |
| -
You need to read the memos |
high density |
Apr-17-09 10:57 AM |
#74 |
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The law is not those memos |
Raineyb |
Apr-19-09 07:59 PM |
#180 |
| -
exactly, unless one is so,so far gone-a person does know |
katty |
Apr-17-09 04:29 PM |
#112 |
| -
In the fantasy world of silly hypothetical arguments, yes |
HughMoran |
Apr-16-09 11:54 PM |
#9 |
| -
its called ex post facto you fucking moron |
mkultra |
Apr-17-09 06:58 PM |
#128 |
| -
you got it! |
kid a |
Apr-16-09 11:50 PM |
#5 |
| -
I watched an amazing Frontline video about the Office of Legal Council |
rockymountaindem |
Apr-16-09 11:51 PM |
#6 |
| -
Exactly. Give him time. He's aiming high. |
Shanti Mama |
Apr-17-09 10:40 AM |
#63 |
| -
Certainly everyone at the CIA wasn't born yesterday and knows TORTURE is illegal . . . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:04 PM |
#138 |
| -
K&R, my friend |
empyreanisles |
Apr-16-09 11:55 PM |
#10 |
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Yay! more kicks for the folks who get it!!!! NT |
Clio the Leo |
Apr-16-09 11:58 PM |
#13 |
| -
There is no way these CIA torturers didn't KNOW it was torture. They did it ANYWAY. NO legal |
katandmoon |
Apr-16-09 11:59 PM |
#14 |
| -
They knew it was waterboarding. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:04 AM |
#17 |
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I disagree completely. These torturers knew what amounts to torture without some |
rhett o rick |
Apr-17-09 02:22 PM |
#88 |
| -
In fact, didn't Judge Jay Bybee confirm that it could produce "imminent death" ... but go ahead, |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:14 PM |
#140 |
| -
excellent, excellent piece. k&fuckin'r |
cali |
Apr-17-09 12:01 AM |
#15 |
| -
Speaking for myself, I am pleased by the document release |
Kurt_and_Hunter |
Apr-17-09 12:07 AM |
#18 |
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"mbracing the Nuremberg defense on its face as an ethical construct" |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 01:45 AM |
#42 |
| -
Well they are angry about that and the fact that with in the first 100 days nobody is in jail yet. |
grantcart |
Apr-17-09 12:10 AM |
#19 |
| -
Ron Reagan had an interesting theory on the radio this afternoon |
Muttocracy |
Apr-17-09 12:21 AM |
#20 |
| -
Even setting aside testimony against higher-ranking officials, |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:25 AM |
#22 |
| -
I don't know - I take this as going far beyond a "business practice" |
Muttocracy |
Apr-17-09 12:30 AM |
#24 |
| -
Torture isn't a black-and-white thing. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:39 AM |
#26 |
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I imagine in modern combat (Iraq, Afghanistan) the military isn't black and white either |
Muttocracy |
Apr-17-09 12:48 AM |
#29 |
| -
I don't know why bright lights is obviously not torture |
Kurt_and_Hunter |
Apr-17-09 01:01 AM |
#34 |
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*shrug* Then replace "bright lights" with "a slap to the face" in my previous paragraph. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 01:24 AM |
#39 |
| -
You just proved the OP's point. |
onenote |
Apr-17-09 06:22 AM |
#57 |
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Right... I was listening . .. wasn't he suggesting that IMMUNITY could succeed in bringing out . . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:16 PM |
#141 |
| -
I have a bit more respect for the CIA than that |
tkmorris |
Apr-17-09 12:30 AM |
#25 |
| -
well said |
Muttocracy |
Apr-17-09 12:49 AM |
#31 |
| -
Precisely . . . who would think anyone in CIA was that unknowing, that naive . . . ???? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:18 PM |
#142 |
| -
No, not quite. |
Political Heretic |
Apr-17-09 12:43 AM |
#27 |
| -
That's meaningless fluff. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:46 AM |
#28 |
| -
Well I hope so. |
Political Heretic |
Apr-17-09 12:55 AM |
#33 |
| -
What? |
whatchamacallit |
Apr-20-09 09:48 AM |
#183 |
| -
why don't folks do a little legal research on torture indictments and trials? |
amborin |
Apr-17-09 01:10 AM |
#35 |
| -
is there a difference within vs among countries? |
Muttocracy |
Apr-17-09 01:25 AM |
#40 |
| -
Nothing is enough to compensate, so do nothing? |
dorkulon |
Apr-17-09 02:28 PM |
#91 |
| -
Occam... BRILLIANT summary... you hit the nail right on the f-ing head |
scheming daemons |
Apr-17-09 01:14 AM |
#37 |
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And as far as the planners of the torture, he lets a little more evidence out |
cliffordu |
Apr-17-09 01:14 AM |
#38 |
| -
Passion seems to win out over logic here every time lately |
Egnever |
Apr-17-09 01:59 AM |
#43 |
| -
I for one welcome the change! |
Jersey Noir |
Apr-17-09 02:07 AM |
#44 |
| -
Welcome to DU! |
Egnever |
Apr-17-09 02:19 AM |
#49 |
| -
Thanks for the welcome |
Jersey Noir |
Apr-17-09 08:59 AM |
#61 |
| -
Are you f#cking kidding me? |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 02:08 AM |
#46 |
| -
I am starting to think you have lost your marbles |
Egnever |
Apr-17-09 02:17 AM |
#48 |
| -
Torture is illegal. That isn't my high or low horse. |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 02:20 AM |
#50 |
| -
sorry its not that clear cut |
Egnever |
Apr-17-09 02:36 AM |
#51 |
| -
It has been rather fascinating to read some of the posts... |
Spazito |
Apr-17-09 10:07 AM |
#62 |
| -
You do know, right, that those memos were produced four months |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 02:51 PM |
#96 |
| -
KUBARK |
mix |
Apr-17-09 05:43 PM |
#122 |
| -
SO IS ENTRAPMENT! |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 10:50 AM |
#72 |
| -
Thank you. |
PeaceNikki |
Apr-17-09 11:08 AM |
#76 |
| -
The means do matter. What neither you nor I considered yesterday |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 02:53 PM |
#97 |
| -
What I've mentioned repeatedly |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 08:38 PM |
#131 |
| -
How does one torture in good faith? n/t |
EFerrari |
Apr-18-09 02:12 PM |
#165 |
| -
Once more with feeling |
jberryhill |
Apr-18-09 09:23 PM |
#171 |
| -
you're the one that needs a therapist |
cali |
Apr-17-09 05:48 AM |
#54 |
| -
I feel like I have walked through the looking glass here -- |
Hell Hath No Fury |
Apr-17-09 10:50 AM |
#71 |
| -
it's predictable, like the freepers who supported bush, inc |
noiretextatique |
Apr-17-09 02:18 PM |
#86 |
| -
Absolute horseshit. |
PeaceNikki |
Apr-17-09 02:22 PM |
#87 |
| -
You silly liberal - we are talking about criminals here - don't go on about defenses |
jberryhill |
Apr-18-09 09:26 PM |
#172 |
| -
Creepy, isn't it? Obama did well to release those memos. |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 03:35 PM |
#106 |
| -
Obama cut them off at the pass by providing lawyers for their |
biopowertoday |
Apr-17-09 05:20 PM |
#118 |
| -
That will blow up on his administration. This isn't going away. n/t |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 06:06 PM |
#125 |
| -
I do not think this issue is going away either as much |
biopowertoday |
Apr-18-09 02:04 PM |
#164 |
| -
yes it is, astonishing... |
mix |
Apr-17-09 05:40 PM |
#120 |
| -
No all because the law matters |
Egnever |
Apr-18-09 09:37 PM |
#175 |
| -
Who? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:20 PM |
#143 |
| -
You're correct. Most people don't understand the effect of a "legal opinion" |
HamdenRice |
Apr-17-09 05:39 AM |
#53 |
| -
Do you understand that legal justification was given |
mix |
Apr-17-09 05:52 PM |
#124 |
| -
Great point . . . and also very like the wiretapping having begun 7 months before 9/11--!!! |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:21 PM |
#144 |
| -
Do you think anyone in Germany thought that the Nuremberg Laws were legal? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:22 PM |
#145 |
| -
Nail on head. K and rec. |
Kdillard |
Apr-17-09 05:52 AM |
#55 |
| -
CAT: "An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification" |
jewishlibrl |
Apr-17-09 05:54 AM |
#56 |
| -
That's not what's going on here, but thanks for playing |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 06:59 AM |
#60 |
| -
They are not relying on an order...that's why they went to the Justice Department |
alcibiades_mystery |
Apr-17-09 10:46 AM |
#67 |
| -
That's also the lesson of the Nurember Trials . . . which |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:24 PM |
#146 |
| -
Why do you hate 'Merca... |
jefferson_dem |
Apr-17-09 06:24 AM |
#58 |
| -
Of course the lower level CIA agents were torturing but it was declared legal by the Justice Dept. |
Jennicut |
Apr-17-09 06:54 AM |
#59 |
| -
There was no legal cover at all for months. |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 05:10 PM |
#114 |
| -
They were supposed to *know*, through basic human understanding, |
alcibiades_mystery |
Apr-17-09 10:44 AM |
#65 |
| -
No . . . the military is supposed to be trained in our nation's laws -- |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:25 PM |
#147 |
| -
Occam Bandage, you always cease to amaze me |
Richardo |
Apr-17-09 10:48 AM |
#70 |
| -
It's like having mom tell you to have a cookie |
shagsak |
Apr-17-09 10:54 AM |
#73 |
| -
So are you comparing torture to eating a cookie? If so that is a horrible analogy. |
Bjorn Against |
Apr-17-09 05:42 PM |
#121 |
| -
really? |
shagsak |
Apr-18-09 11:25 AM |
#159 |
| -
Taking an order to eat a cookie does not exactly rise to the level of taking an order to torture. |
Bjorn Against |
Apr-18-09 04:49 PM |
#167 |
| -
If everyone who is taking orders questions those orders |
shagsak |
Apr-18-09 05:45 PM |
#168 |
| -
First you need to get your facts straight. The people being tortured NEVER attacked the US. |
Bjorn Against |
Apr-18-09 06:45 PM |
#170 |
| -
The point is - the orders WERE questioned.... |
jberryhill |
Apr-18-09 09:31 PM |
#173 |
| -
It's a no brainer re cookies . . . it's ignoring reality re torture . . . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:27 PM |
#148 |
| -
not at all |
shagsak |
Apr-18-09 11:45 AM |
#160 |
| -
Oh, we're "burning" them if we prosecute them? I didn't know that .. . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-18-09 12:16 PM |
#162 |
| -
lol |
shagsak |
Apr-18-09 12:54 PM |
#163 |
| -
I thought "burn" was an intended exaggeration . . . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-18-09 06:38 PM |
#169 |
| -
If I could recommend this thread 1000 times I would |
dolo amber |
Apr-17-09 11:06 AM |
#75 |
| -
Excellent points |
Peacetrain |
Apr-17-09 11:09 AM |
#77 |
| -
K&R! |
appal_jack |
Apr-17-09 11:21 AM |
#78 |
| -
Very well put |
EstimatedProphet |
Apr-17-09 11:24 AM |
#79 |
| -
War Crimes. Don't care if their Mommy said it was okay. nt. |
sam kane |
Apr-17-09 11:24 AM |
#80 |
| -
Excellent points and well said! nt |
ItNerd4life |
Apr-17-09 01:01 PM |
#82 |
| -
Simply awesome. |
Phx_Dem |
Apr-17-09 01:54 PM |
#83 |
| -
Honestly, this place will always find something to bitch about... |
mwei924 |
Apr-17-09 02:00 PM |
#84 |
| -
Yeah . . . and TORTURE is such a meaningless, pitiful little thing to get upset about---!!! |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:29 PM |
#149 |
| -
This thread needs to be kicked. |
PeaceNikki |
Apr-17-09 02:07 PM |
#85 |
| -
What is the definition of torture? |
shawn703 |
Apr-17-09 02:26 PM |
#89 |
| -
well fine,...let the little guys go that thought they were obeying the laws.. |
winyanstaz |
Apr-17-09 02:29 PM |
#92 |
| -
the stanford prison experiment |
islandgirl808 |
Apr-17-09 02:38 PM |
#95 |
| -
Apparently a Violation of Geneva Conventions? |
Hissyspit |
Apr-17-09 02:55 PM |
#99 |
| -
I'm gonna quote Jonathan Turley as my last words for today on this |
truedelphi |
Apr-17-09 03:27 PM |
#104 |
| -
You have to be one of the most |
Blue_Roses |
Apr-17-09 03:02 PM |
#101 |
| -
Indeed! n/t |
Political Tiger |
Apr-17-09 04:13 PM |
#111 |
| -
What seems reasonable to you about rationalizing torture? |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 05:12 PM |
#115 |
| -
Because when our corrupt government tortures, we intend to bury it--??? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:30 PM |
#150 |
| -
I honestly never thought I`d live to see the day |
democrank |
Apr-17-09 03:17 PM |
#103 |
| -
Well said, it is a sad day for DU to see people here defending torture. |
Bjorn Against |
Apr-17-09 05:48 PM |
#123 |
| -
Do you remember the "excuses" when we first found out about the torture --- ???? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:31 PM |
#151 |
| -
Half of DU is only angry at the other half of DU that isn't as angry |
CreekDog |
Apr-17-09 03:28 PM |
#105 |
| -
Now that pisses me off. |
Buzz Clik |
Apr-17-09 09:11 PM |
#133 |
| -
A Big K&R for |
Mme. Defarge |
Apr-17-09 03:47 PM |
#108 |
| -
Well said |
Adelante |
Apr-17-09 04:54 PM |
#113 |
| -
Hyperbole is your speciality |
Moochy |
Apr-17-09 05:14 PM |
#116 |
| -
yeah, but who do you think will be kicked off American Idol next? |
Soylent Brice |
Apr-17-09 05:15 PM |
#117 |
| -
There is no excuse for not knowing that those techniques were torture. |
mix |
Apr-17-09 05:36 PM |
#119 |
| -
K&R, and here's why... |
ZeitGuy |
Apr-17-09 06:21 PM |
#126 |
| -
You got it, and your a lockstepper for having such reasoned support of Obama. |
mkultra |
Apr-17-09 06:54 PM |
#127 |
| -
Very well said. My compliments and thanks! K&R n/t |
ms liberty |
Apr-17-09 06:59 PM |
#129 |
| -
I wish I could find comfort in this utter horse hockey. |
uberblonde |
Apr-17-09 08:18 PM |
#130 |
| -
Word |
whatchamacallit |
Apr-20-09 09:52 AM |
#184 |
| -
O. Bandage -- you are dead to me. Well, you were dead to me a year ago. |
Buzz Clik |
Apr-17-09 09:10 PM |
#132 |
| -
I hate to say it, |
Vattel |
Apr-17-09 09:53 PM |
#135 |
| -
Could they be tried under some other statute? |
jeanpalmer |
Apr-17-09 11:24 PM |
#157 |
| -
Sadly we've also seen Congress dragging its feet on TORTURE for years!!! |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:35 PM |
#152 |
| -
Occam Bandage was just following orders. nt |
Truth2Tell |
Apr-17-09 10:38 PM |
#153 |
| -
Even a sadistic CIA thug |
jeanpalmer |
Apr-17-09 10:54 PM |
#156 |
| -
"Any belief that a memo from DOJ could authorize assault is unreasonable" |
jberryhill |
Apr-18-09 09:34 PM |
#174 |
| -
Excellent post. nt |
Honeycombe8 |
Apr-18-09 11:50 AM |
#161 |
| -
Why would anybody expect otherwise of DUers? |
BlooInBloo |
Apr-18-09 02:21 PM |
#166 |
| -
"Just Following Orders" is NO EXCUSE since the NAZI WAR CRIMES TRIALS |
TankLV |
Apr-18-09 10:51 PM |
#176 |
| -
Except that they weren't "just following orders" |
PeaceNikki |
Apr-18-09 10:58 PM |
#177 |
| -
The DOJ clarifications |
conscious evolution |
Apr-19-09 08:59 AM |
#178 |
| -
Those principles relate to international law - not US law. |
PeaceNikki |
Apr-19-09 09:16 AM |
#179 |
| -
What US law? |
conscious evolution |
Apr-20-09 05:53 AM |
#181 |
| -
Rahm Emanuel's statements change everything |
jewishlibrl |
Apr-20-09 07:48 AM |
#182 |
| -
Yep. |
trudyco |
Apr-20-09 12:35 PM |
#186 |
| -
I only know one thing |
whatchamacallit |
Apr-20-09 10:01 AM |
#185 |
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