| 20. Ron Reagan had an interesting theory on the radio this afternoon |
|
that it might be very smart not to go after the lower-level folks if that will encourage them to testify against higher officials later.
What I didn't like was Obama's phrasing of "This is a time for reflection, not retribution." I figure justice is somewhere in the middle of those two.
|
| -So let me get this straight here. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-16-09 11:45 PM |
#0 |
 -
I can't find the link to that Scottish lady singing that song |
leftstreet |
Apr-16-09 11:47 PM |
#1 |
 -
... |
Patsy Stone |
Apr-16-09 11:57 PM |
#11 |
| -
!! |
Richardo |
Apr-17-09 10:47 AM |
#69 |
 -
Go To |
debunkthelies |
Apr-17-09 03:09 PM |
#102 |
| -
Just listened to her recording of "Cry Me a River". Wowser! |
classof56 |
Apr-17-09 03:58 PM |
#110 |
| -
Summary: |
geek tragedy |
Apr-16-09 11:48 PM |
#2 |
| -
You're on a roll this week. |
Nicholas D Wolfwood |
Apr-17-09 02:27 PM |
#90 |
| -
Yep. Boggles the mind. No matter what he does, he's going to catch shit for it. NT |
MADem |
Apr-16-09 11:48 PM |
#3 |
| -
It seems like there's an anti Obama cult as well as a pro Obama cult |
Richd506 |
Apr-17-09 02:33 PM |
#94 |
| -
The former are a bit more obnoxious than the latter, though. |
MADem |
Apr-17-09 02:56 PM |
#100 |
| -
So if someone commits a crime in your neighborhood, if the police |
mmonk |
Apr-16-09 11:49 PM |
#4 |
| -
You are missing a critical piece. It would be something the police told them was legal and then |
Pirate Smile |
Apr-16-09 11:52 PM |
#7 |
| -
That is absolutely correct. I cannot imagine anyone approving of a situation in which |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-16-09 11:57 PM |
#12 |
| -
That doesn't even deal with the practical realities that the police commissioner would need people |
Pirate Smile |
Apr-17-09 12:04 AM |
#16 |
| -
The problem for me is that I don't care about pro-transperency as much as |
truedelphi |
Apr-17-09 12:48 AM |
#30 |
| -
Indeed torture is wrong, and nobody has ever doubted or denied that, at any level. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:52 AM |
#32 |
| -
You say, further down, |
truedelphi |
Apr-17-09 01:11 AM |
#36 |
| -
Who said we couldn't go after Bush and Cheney? |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 01:26 AM |
#41 |
| -
Every child in school |
Mojorabbit |
Apr-17-09 02:53 AM |
#52 |
| -
Plus for some of these people, they could always change jobs. After all, |
truedelphi |
Apr-17-09 02:55 PM |
#98 |
| -
Seconded |
ArcticFox |
Apr-17-09 03:38 PM |
#107 |
| -
Wow! That is an excellent point. You say: |
truedelphi |
Apr-17-09 03:52 PM |
#109 |
| -
Except you are ignorning the fact that torture has always been illegal --- |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 09:53 PM |
#134 |
| -
True, but what constitutes torture was different in the Bush administration |
MadBadger |
Apr-17-09 10:13 PM |
#139 |
| -
No . . they attempted to corrupt the Geneva Accords, the Constitution and Military laws .. . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:38 PM |
#154 |
| -
So it's okay to torture children? |
proud2BlibKansan |
Apr-17-09 10:48 PM |
#155 |
| -
So you're saying these are things you'd do . . . ? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-18-09 12:41 AM |
#158 |
| -
Who cares if they were directed to do it? |
silverojo |
Apr-17-09 12:22 AM |
#21 |
| -
I might well say "no sane person would join the CIA." That's meaningless. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:29 AM |
#23 |
| -
Forget that you would lose your job. |
Nicholas D Wolfwood |
Apr-17-09 02:32 PM |
#93 |
| -
That critical piece being slamming people's heads against |
kas125 |
Apr-17-09 02:07 AM |
#45 |
| -
The Law doesn't do "right and wrong" or "personal judgments" |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 10:45 AM |
#66 |
| -
Exactly . . . and it's exactly what the military wants . . . robots surrendering conscience...!!! |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 09:57 PM |
#136 |
| -
kas125, you wrote: |
tblue37 |
Apr-17-09 09:58 PM |
#137 |
| -
Almost, but not quite |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 10:43 AM |
#64 |
| -
Still not a defense |
moodforaday |
Apr-17-09 11:47 AM |
#81 |
| -
Except we're not talking about the people who are at fault here. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-16-09 11:53 PM |
#8 |
| -
Do you really expect people to believe that they didn't KNOW |
kas125 |
Apr-17-09 02:12 AM |
#47 |
| -
The laws of the civilized people of the United States |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 10:47 AM |
#68 |
| -
You need to read the memos |
high density |
Apr-17-09 10:57 AM |
#74 |
| -
The law is not those memos |
Raineyb |
Apr-19-09 07:59 PM |
#180 |
| -
exactly, unless one is so,so far gone-a person does know |
katty |
Apr-17-09 04:29 PM |
#112 |
| -
In the fantasy world of silly hypothetical arguments, yes |
HughMoran |
Apr-16-09 11:54 PM |
#9 |
| -
its called ex post facto you fucking moron |
mkultra |
Apr-17-09 06:58 PM |
#128 |
| -
you got it! |
kid a |
Apr-16-09 11:50 PM |
#5 |
| -
I watched an amazing Frontline video about the Office of Legal Council |
rockymountaindem |
Apr-16-09 11:51 PM |
#6 |
| -
Exactly. Give him time. He's aiming high. |
Shanti Mama |
Apr-17-09 10:40 AM |
#63 |
| -
Certainly everyone at the CIA wasn't born yesterday and knows TORTURE is illegal . . . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:04 PM |
#138 |
| -
K&R, my friend |
empyreanisles |
Apr-16-09 11:55 PM |
#10 |
| -
Yay! more kicks for the folks who get it!!!! NT |
Clio the Leo |
Apr-16-09 11:58 PM |
#13 |
| -
There is no way these CIA torturers didn't KNOW it was torture. They did it ANYWAY. NO legal |
katandmoon |
Apr-16-09 11:59 PM |
#14 |
| -
They knew it was waterboarding. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:04 AM |
#17 |
| -
I disagree completely. These torturers knew what amounts to torture without some |
rhett o rick |
Apr-17-09 02:22 PM |
#88 |
| -
In fact, didn't Judge Jay Bybee confirm that it could produce "imminent death" ... but go ahead, |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:14 PM |
#140 |
| -
excellent, excellent piece. k&fuckin'r |
cali |
Apr-17-09 12:01 AM |
#15 |
| -
Speaking for myself, I am pleased by the document release |
Kurt_and_Hunter |
Apr-17-09 12:07 AM |
#18 |
| -
"mbracing the Nuremberg defense on its face as an ethical construct" |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 01:45 AM |
#42 |
| -
Well they are angry about that and the fact that with in the first 100 days nobody is in jail yet. |
grantcart |
Apr-17-09 12:10 AM |
#19 |
| -
Ron Reagan had an interesting theory on the radio this afternoon |
Muttocracy |
Apr-17-09 12:21 AM |
#20 |
| -
Even setting aside testimony against higher-ranking officials, |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:25 AM |
#22 |
| -
I don't know - I take this as going far beyond a "business practice" |
Muttocracy |
Apr-17-09 12:30 AM |
#24 |
| -
Torture isn't a black-and-white thing. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:39 AM |
#26 |
| -
I imagine in modern combat (Iraq, Afghanistan) the military isn't black and white either |
Muttocracy |
Apr-17-09 12:48 AM |
#29 |
| -
I don't know why bright lights is obviously not torture |
Kurt_and_Hunter |
Apr-17-09 01:01 AM |
#34 |
| -
*shrug* Then replace "bright lights" with "a slap to the face" in my previous paragraph. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 01:24 AM |
#39 |
| -
You just proved the OP's point. |
onenote |
Apr-17-09 06:22 AM |
#57 |
| -
Right... I was listening . .. wasn't he suggesting that IMMUNITY could succeed in bringing out . . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:16 PM |
#141 |
| -
I have a bit more respect for the CIA than that |
tkmorris |
Apr-17-09 12:30 AM |
#25 |
| -
well said |
Muttocracy |
Apr-17-09 12:49 AM |
#31 |
| -
Precisely . . . who would think anyone in CIA was that unknowing, that naive . . . ???? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:18 PM |
#142 |
| -
No, not quite. |
Political Heretic |
Apr-17-09 12:43 AM |
#27 |
| -
That's meaningless fluff. |
Occam Bandage |
Apr-17-09 12:46 AM |
#28 |
| -
Well I hope so. |
Political Heretic |
Apr-17-09 12:55 AM |
#33 |
| -
What? |
whatchamacallit |
Apr-20-09 09:48 AM |
#183 |
| -
why don't folks do a little legal research on torture indictments and trials? |
amborin |
Apr-17-09 01:10 AM |
#35 |
| -
is there a difference within vs among countries? |
Muttocracy |
Apr-17-09 01:25 AM |
#40 |
| -
Nothing is enough to compensate, so do nothing? |
dorkulon |
Apr-17-09 02:28 PM |
#91 |
| -
Occam... BRILLIANT summary... you hit the nail right on the f-ing head |
scheming daemons |
Apr-17-09 01:14 AM |
#37 |
| -
And as far as the planners of the torture, he lets a little more evidence out |
cliffordu |
Apr-17-09 01:14 AM |
#38 |
| -
Passion seems to win out over logic here every time lately |
Egnever |
Apr-17-09 01:59 AM |
#43 |
| -
I for one welcome the change! |
Jersey Noir |
Apr-17-09 02:07 AM |
#44 |
| -
Welcome to DU! |
Egnever |
Apr-17-09 02:19 AM |
#49 |
| -
Thanks for the welcome |
Jersey Noir |
Apr-17-09 08:59 AM |
#61 |
| -
Are you f#cking kidding me? |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 02:08 AM |
#46 |
| -
I am starting to think you have lost your marbles |
Egnever |
Apr-17-09 02:17 AM |
#48 |
| -
Torture is illegal. That isn't my high or low horse. |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 02:20 AM |
#50 |
| -
sorry its not that clear cut |
Egnever |
Apr-17-09 02:36 AM |
#51 |
| -
It has been rather fascinating to read some of the posts... |
Spazito |
Apr-17-09 10:07 AM |
#62 |
| -
You do know, right, that those memos were produced four months |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 02:51 PM |
#96 |
| -
KUBARK |
mix |
Apr-17-09 05:43 PM |
#122 |
| -
SO IS ENTRAPMENT! |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 10:50 AM |
#72 |
| -
Thank you. |
PeaceNikki |
Apr-17-09 11:08 AM |
#76 |
| -
The means do matter. What neither you nor I considered yesterday |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 02:53 PM |
#97 |
| -
What I've mentioned repeatedly |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 08:38 PM |
#131 |
| -
How does one torture in good faith? n/t |
EFerrari |
Apr-18-09 02:12 PM |
#165 |
| -
Once more with feeling |
jberryhill |
Apr-18-09 09:23 PM |
#171 |
| -
you're the one that needs a therapist |
cali |
Apr-17-09 05:48 AM |
#54 |
| -
I feel like I have walked through the looking glass here -- |
Hell Hath No Fury |
Apr-17-09 10:50 AM |
#71 |
| -
it's predictable, like the freepers who supported bush, inc |
noiretextatique |
Apr-17-09 02:18 PM |
#86 |
| -
Absolute horseshit. |
PeaceNikki |
Apr-17-09 02:22 PM |
#87 |
| -
You silly liberal - we are talking about criminals here - don't go on about defenses |
jberryhill |
Apr-18-09 09:26 PM |
#172 |
| -
Creepy, isn't it? Obama did well to release those memos. |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 03:35 PM |
#106 |
| -
Obama cut them off at the pass by providing lawyers for their |
biopowertoday |
Apr-17-09 05:20 PM |
#118 |
| -
That will blow up on his administration. This isn't going away. n/t |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 06:06 PM |
#125 |
| -
I do not think this issue is going away either as much |
biopowertoday |
Apr-18-09 02:04 PM |
#164 |
| -
yes it is, astonishing... |
mix |
Apr-17-09 05:40 PM |
#120 |
| -
No all because the law matters |
Egnever |
Apr-18-09 09:37 PM |
#175 |
| -
Who? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:20 PM |
#143 |
| -
You're correct. Most people don't understand the effect of a "legal opinion" |
HamdenRice |
Apr-17-09 05:39 AM |
#53 |
| -
Do you understand that legal justification was given |
mix |
Apr-17-09 05:52 PM |
#124 |
| -
Great point . . . and also very like the wiretapping having begun 7 months before 9/11--!!! |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:21 PM |
#144 |
| -
Do you think anyone in Germany thought that the Nuremberg Laws were legal? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:22 PM |
#145 |
| -
Nail on head. K and rec. |
Kdillard |
Apr-17-09 05:52 AM |
#55 |
| -
CAT: "An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification" |
jewishlibrl |
Apr-17-09 05:54 AM |
#56 |
| -
That's not what's going on here, but thanks for playing |
jberryhill |
Apr-17-09 06:59 AM |
#60 |
| -
They are not relying on an order...that's why they went to the Justice Department |
alcibiades_mystery |
Apr-17-09 10:46 AM |
#67 |
| -
That's also the lesson of the Nurember Trials . . . which |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:24 PM |
#146 |
| -
Why do you hate 'Merca... |
jefferson_dem |
Apr-17-09 06:24 AM |
#58 |
| -
Of course the lower level CIA agents were torturing but it was declared legal by the Justice Dept. |
Jennicut |
Apr-17-09 06:54 AM |
#59 |
| -
There was no legal cover at all for months. |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 05:10 PM |
#114 |
| -
They were supposed to *know*, through basic human understanding, |
alcibiades_mystery |
Apr-17-09 10:44 AM |
#65 |
| -
No . . . the military is supposed to be trained in our nation's laws -- |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:25 PM |
#147 |
| -
Occam Bandage, you always cease to amaze me |
Richardo |
Apr-17-09 10:48 AM |
#70 |
| -
It's like having mom tell you to have a cookie |
shagsak |
Apr-17-09 10:54 AM |
#73 |
| -
So are you comparing torture to eating a cookie? If so that is a horrible analogy. |
Bjorn Against |
Apr-17-09 05:42 PM |
#121 |
| -
really? |
shagsak |
Apr-18-09 11:25 AM |
#159 |
| -
Taking an order to eat a cookie does not exactly rise to the level of taking an order to torture. |
Bjorn Against |
Apr-18-09 04:49 PM |
#167 |
| -
If everyone who is taking orders questions those orders |
shagsak |
Apr-18-09 05:45 PM |
#168 |
| -
First you need to get your facts straight. The people being tortured NEVER attacked the US. |
Bjorn Against |
Apr-18-09 06:45 PM |
#170 |
| -
The point is - the orders WERE questioned.... |
jberryhill |
Apr-18-09 09:31 PM |
#173 |
| -
It's a no brainer re cookies . . . it's ignoring reality re torture . . . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:27 PM |
#148 |
| -
not at all |
shagsak |
Apr-18-09 11:45 AM |
#160 |
| -
Oh, we're "burning" them if we prosecute them? I didn't know that .. . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-18-09 12:16 PM |
#162 |
| -
lol |
shagsak |
Apr-18-09 12:54 PM |
#163 |
| -
I thought "burn" was an intended exaggeration . . . |
defendandprotect |
Apr-18-09 06:38 PM |
#169 |
| -
If I could recommend this thread 1000 times I would |
dolo amber |
Apr-17-09 11:06 AM |
#75 |
| -
Excellent points |
Peacetrain |
Apr-17-09 11:09 AM |
#77 |
| -
K&R! |
appal_jack |
Apr-17-09 11:21 AM |
#78 |
| -
Very well put |
EstimatedProphet |
Apr-17-09 11:24 AM |
#79 |
| -
War Crimes. Don't care if their Mommy said it was okay. nt. |
sam kane |
Apr-17-09 11:24 AM |
#80 |
| -
Excellent points and well said! nt |
ItNerd4life |
Apr-17-09 01:01 PM |
#82 |
| -
Simply awesome. |
Phx_Dem |
Apr-17-09 01:54 PM |
#83 |
| -
Honestly, this place will always find something to bitch about... |
mwei924 |
Apr-17-09 02:00 PM |
#84 |
| -
Yeah . . . and TORTURE is such a meaningless, pitiful little thing to get upset about---!!! |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:29 PM |
#149 |
| -
This thread needs to be kicked. |
PeaceNikki |
Apr-17-09 02:07 PM |
#85 |
| -
What is the definition of torture? |
shawn703 |
Apr-17-09 02:26 PM |
#89 |
| -
well fine,...let the little guys go that thought they were obeying the laws.. |
winyanstaz |
Apr-17-09 02:29 PM |
#92 |
| -
the stanford prison experiment |
islandgirl808 |
Apr-17-09 02:38 PM |
#95 |
| -
Apparently a Violation of Geneva Conventions? |
Hissyspit |
Apr-17-09 02:55 PM |
#99 |
| -
I'm gonna quote Jonathan Turley as my last words for today on this |
truedelphi |
Apr-17-09 03:27 PM |
#104 |
| -
You have to be one of the most |
Blue_Roses |
Apr-17-09 03:02 PM |
#101 |
| -
Indeed! n/t |
Political Tiger |
Apr-17-09 04:13 PM |
#111 |
| -
What seems reasonable to you about rationalizing torture? |
EFerrari |
Apr-17-09 05:12 PM |
#115 |
| -
Because when our corrupt government tortures, we intend to bury it--??? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:30 PM |
#150 |
| -
I honestly never thought I`d live to see the day |
democrank |
Apr-17-09 03:17 PM |
#103 |
| -
Well said, it is a sad day for DU to see people here defending torture. |
Bjorn Against |
Apr-17-09 05:48 PM |
#123 |
| -
Do you remember the "excuses" when we first found out about the torture --- ???? |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:31 PM |
#151 |
| -
Half of DU is only angry at the other half of DU that isn't as angry |
CreekDog |
Apr-17-09 03:28 PM |
#105 |
| -
Now that pisses me off. |
Buzz Clik |
Apr-17-09 09:11 PM |
#133 |
| -
A Big K&R for |
Mme. Defarge |
Apr-17-09 03:47 PM |
#108 |
| -
Well said |
Adelante |
Apr-17-09 04:54 PM |
#113 |
| -
Hyperbole is your speciality |
Moochy |
Apr-17-09 05:14 PM |
#116 |
| -
yeah, but who do you think will be kicked off American Idol next? |
Soylent Brice |
Apr-17-09 05:15 PM |
#117 |
| -
There is no excuse for not knowing that those techniques were torture. |
mix |
Apr-17-09 05:36 PM |
#119 |
| -
K&R, and here's why... |
ZeitGuy |
Apr-17-09 06:21 PM |
#126 |
| -
You got it, and your a lockstepper for having such reasoned support of Obama. |
mkultra |
Apr-17-09 06:54 PM |
#127 |
| -
Very well said. My compliments and thanks! K&R n/t |
ms liberty |
Apr-17-09 06:59 PM |
#129 |
| -
I wish I could find comfort in this utter horse hockey. |
uberblonde |
Apr-17-09 08:18 PM |
#130 |
| -
Word |
whatchamacallit |
Apr-20-09 09:52 AM |
#184 |
| -
O. Bandage -- you are dead to me. Well, you were dead to me a year ago. |
Buzz Clik |
Apr-17-09 09:10 PM |
#132 |
| -
I hate to say it, |
Vattel |
Apr-17-09 09:53 PM |
#135 |
| -
Could they be tried under some other statute? |
jeanpalmer |
Apr-17-09 11:24 PM |
#157 |
| -
Sadly we've also seen Congress dragging its feet on TORTURE for years!!! |
defendandprotect |
Apr-17-09 10:35 PM |
#152 |
| -
Occam Bandage was just following orders. nt |
Truth2Tell |
Apr-17-09 10:38 PM |
#153 |
| -
Even a sadistic CIA thug |
jeanpalmer |
Apr-17-09 10:54 PM |
#156 |
| -
"Any belief that a memo from DOJ could authorize assault is unreasonable" |
jberryhill |
Apr-18-09 09:34 PM |
#174 |
| -
Excellent post. nt |
Honeycombe8 |
Apr-18-09 11:50 AM |
#161 |
| -
Why would anybody expect otherwise of DUers? |
BlooInBloo |
Apr-18-09 02:21 PM |
#166 |
| -
"Just Following Orders" is NO EXCUSE since the NAZI WAR CRIMES TRIALS |
TankLV |
Apr-18-09 10:51 PM |
#176 |
| -
Except that they weren't "just following orders" |
PeaceNikki |
Apr-18-09 10:58 PM |
#177 |
| -
The DOJ clarifications |
conscious evolution |
Apr-19-09 08:59 AM |
#178 |
| -
Those principles relate to international law - not US law. |
PeaceNikki |
Apr-19-09 09:16 AM |
#179 |
| -
What US law? |
conscious evolution |
Apr-20-09 05:53 AM |
#181 |
| -
Rahm Emanuel's statements change everything |
jewishlibrl |
Apr-20-09 07:48 AM |
#182 |
| -
Yep. |
trudyco |
Apr-20-09 12:35 PM |
#186 |
| -
I only know one thing |
whatchamacallit |
Apr-20-09 10:01 AM |
#185 |
Printer-friendly format
Email this thread to a friend
Bookmark this thread
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore