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Reply #76: No, it isn't [View All]

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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-06-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. No, it isn't
The payroll tax is an *extremely* regressive tax- one of our most regressive forms of taxation. In fact, it can probably only be argued that sales taxes are more regressive. Dean's overall tax proposals have been to lower the (regressive) payroll tax and replace it with higher (progressive) income taxes. Why is that something that a liberal would oppose? We would have more federal monies available for social programs, but that money would come from more progressive taxation. Those with the greatest ability to pay taxes should be paying more than the current rates (and I say that as part of a 2 person household that makes good money).

Payroll taxes also actually impede economic/job growth, since they tend to stifle an employer's ability or willingness to hire more workers. An employer will simply force some of its employees to work overtime hours (without additional payroll taxes being due) rather than hire 1 new employee since it would then have to pay higher payroll taxes. And if Shrub has his way, the OT hours route will be even more attractive, since OT pay will no longer be required.

The payroll tax ideally should actually be ELIMINATED and replaced with higher marginal income tax rates on those making more than a million a year. It does NOTHING good for our workers, since the funding for SS and Medicare could be obtained through more progressive forms of taxation. Other than a sales tax, it is the most intrusive form of taxation in a market economy. BTW- the least intrusive form of taxation in a market economy is the income tax. Throw that info at repubs the next time they start crying about income taxes.

I never said that SS and Medicare funding should be cut. But we will have to look at different methods of funding the programs over the next couple of decades as the Baby Boomers retire and my generation (who are far fewer in number) take up the responsibility for funding them. I just happen to believe that the vast majority of federal tax revenue (if not all of it) should come from the progressive income tax.

I'm sorry that you support the payroll tax. This is an issue we will just have to agree to disagree on, because I will NEVER see such a regressive form of taxation as something that a liberal pinko like myself should be in favor of.

And so you know, repubs would never support a cut in the payroll tax, mostly for the reasons I listed above. When a repub talks about cutting "taxes" you can almost bet the farm that s/he is ONLY referring to income taxes, which just happen to be our most progressive tax. They NEVER speak about cutting payroll/FICA, sales or property taxes (unless in a state like mine that has as its most progressive tax the property tax). They seem to think that income taxes are the only taxes Americans pay, and too many people buy into their framing of the debate.
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  -Dean considering cut in payroll tax! dkf  Jan-05-04 11:10 PM   #0 
  - This had been advocated on the original blog  party_line   Jan-05-04 11:16 PM   #1 
  - And this benefits the middle class self employed business owner - HOW  SW FL Dem   Jan-05-04 11:36 PM   #11 
     - Maybe we should wait and see what the plan really is  party_line   Jan-05-04 11:48 PM   #17 
     - Tax Law is my expertise.  SW FL Dem   Jan-06-04 12:17 AM   #21 
     - Have to wait and see the plan, but  LuminousX   Jan-06-04 09:05 AM   #45 
     - If that small buisness owner has his payroll tax percentage cut  w4rma   Jan-06-04 09:28 AM   #55 
     - Can't spend less on payroll unless salaries are cut.  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 09:32 AM   #57 
        - Yup. And note that this won't hurt struggling small buisness owners (n/t)  w4rma   Jan-06-04 09:43 AM   #61 
           - His current tax plan does not include payroll tax changes...  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 09:45 AM   #62 
     - For one thing, it puts money in people's pockets.  Why   Jan-06-04 10:13 AM   #68 
  - that's great!  eileen from OH   Jan-05-04 11:18 PM   #2 
  - Another change of principled beliefs?  blm   Jan-05-04 11:19 PM   #3 
  - What change?  party_line   Jan-05-04 11:26 PM   #5 
  - The reply was to the post above.  blm   Jan-05-04 11:35 PM   #10 
  - bringing tax levels to where they were under Clinton.  AP   Jan-05-04 11:40 PM   #12 
  - Heh  Hep   Jan-06-04 09:18 AM   #48 
  - without digging up my records, it appears that if he rolls back the bush  bearfartinthewoods   Jan-06-04 08:35 AM   #37 
     - Try these calculators for a simple guesstimate  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 08:40 AM   #39 
  - Dean will "treat everybody with respect, if I win." Priceless!  flpoljunkie   Jan-06-04 09:15 AM   #47 
  - Bravo! It's Been rumored for weeks now...Great move!  farmbo   Jan-05-04 11:20 PM   #4 
  - Payroll tax cap for 2004 is $87,900, up $900 from 2003.  flpoljunkie   Jan-06-04 08:58 AM   #42 
     - SS is capped - Medicare is not capped n/t  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 09:01 AM   #43 
  - Good one.  bain_sidhe   Jan-05-04 11:28 PM   #6 
  - will Dean drop the cap on Social Security?  WhoCountsTheVotes   Jan-05-04 11:28 PM   #7 
  - How?  party_line   Jan-05-04 11:33 PM   #8 
  - then we'll string them up  WhoCountsTheVotes   Jan-05-04 11:34 PM   #9 
  - That's exactly what he proposes to do.  Hep   Jan-06-04 09:18 AM   #49 
  - If Dean does this, I say the hell with the Democratic Party!  flaminbats   Jan-05-04 11:43 PM   #13 
  - Social Security isn't on the brink of a crisis, it's solid for another two  WhoCountsTheVotes   Jan-05-04 11:45 PM   #14 
  - That's a great Kerry line!  flaminbats   Jan-05-04 11:47 PM   #16 
     - I wasn't being sarcastic  WhoCountsTheVotes   Jan-05-04 11:51 PM   #18 
        - neither am I...  flaminbats   Jan-06-04 12:06 AM   #19 
           - Remember when Gore was talking about a "lockbox" for the payroll tax?  w4rma   Jan-06-04 09:36 AM   #58 
              - No payroll tax is a miserable idea.  flaminbats   Jan-06-04 11:43 AM   #82 
  - It could be revenue neutral...with fat cats paying for worker cuts...  farmbo   Jan-05-04 11:45 PM   #15 
  - Do you realize that since reagan raised the payroll tax it has been...  JVS   Jan-06-04 12:09 AM   #20 
  - Yes it has been raided, and thus we had surpluses in the 90's.  flaminbats   Jan-06-04 12:37 AM   #27 
     - Or the income tax would be increased instead. Taxes are taxes. (n/t)  w4rma   Jan-06-04 09:37 AM   #59 
        - I disagree.  flaminbats   Jan-06-04 11:30 AM   #79 
           - Why do you say that?  lastliberalintexas   Jan-06-04 11:39 AM   #80 
              - Sales tax is regressive, a payroll tax with no income cap would be flat!  flaminbats   Jan-06-04 12:01 PM   #83 
                 - Do you even understand  lastliberalintexas   Jan-06-04 12:14 PM   #84 
                    - Let me repeat my opinion,I support lifting income cap from the payroll tax  flaminbats   Jan-06-04 12:52 PM   #86 
  - A-men! Would mean insolvency for Social Security and  Kahuna   Jan-06-04 12:55 PM   #87 
     - Cat-food will become much too expensive...  flaminbats   Jan-06-04 01:18 PM   #91 
  - Along with the lyrics from Outkast, the Southern accent, the "I would  robbedvoter   Jan-06-04 12:17 AM   #22 
  - Check again...Clark does NOT address the Payroll tax  farmbo   Jan-06-04 12:25 AM   #26 
     - SS/Medicare tax changes will be a tough sell...  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 06:38 AM   #31 
  - If Dean cares about all the people you mention  Bleachers7   Jan-06-04 12:19 AM   #23 
  - spoken like a true conservative  Polemonium   Jan-06-04 08:15 AM   #32 
  - Federal income tax pays for local playgrounds?  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 08:19 AM   #33 
     - Ahh I'm daring to dream  Polemonium   Jan-06-04 08:32 AM   #35 
        - You can't have that without making taxes more progressive n/t  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 08:34 AM   #36 
           - or something along these lines  Polemonium   Jan-06-04 08:40 AM   #38 
              - Yeah but it's broad strokes - Where's the fine print?  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 08:43 AM   #40 
  - So that your children  HFishbine   Jan-06-04 08:26 AM   #34 
  - I fought against those tax cuts, didn't you?  LuminousX   Jan-06-04 09:18 AM   #50 
  - Is the timing suspicious?  Leilani   Jan-06-04 12:23 AM   #24 
  - No plan - Just political mumbo-jumbo...  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 06:33 AM   #29 
  - Actually  Hep   Jan-06-04 09:20 AM   #51 
     - Show me his proposal - The devil is in the details n/t  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 09:23 AM   #53 
        - His proposal is at dfa  Hep   Jan-06-04 10:06 AM   #65 
           - His DFA proposal rolls back the Bush cuts not payroll taxes...  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 10:09 AM   #66 
              - He's all about raising the cap  Hep   Jan-06-04 10:12 AM   #67 
                 - Again it's not in any of his official proposals - conjecture  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 10:14 AM   #69 
                    - Whatever  Hep   Jan-06-04 10:21 AM   #71 
                       - No I'm just saying it's not been officially proposed...  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 10:23 AM   #73 
  - Clark got his plan out there first. Of course, Dean will  Kahuna   Jan-06-04 12:56 PM   #88 
     - Clark got his plan out first?  Hep   Jan-06-04 01:12 PM   #90 
  - Kucinich has already introduced the legislation  eridani   Jan-06-04 12:24 AM   #25 
  - Dennis is on the ball!  Paulie   Jan-06-04 09:03 AM   #44 
  - I'd like to see this happen  JNelson6563   Jan-06-04 06:30 AM   #28 
  - That is much more important to lower income people than the income tax.  Zynx   Jan-06-04 06:34 AM   #30 
  - Sure! Considering that I live on Social security and pay tax on my savings  robbedvoter   Jan-06-04 08:46 AM   #41 
     - So Bush made your life better.  LuminousX   Jan-06-04 09:25 AM   #54 
        - Child credit is one of the cuts Dean blathers against.  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 10:03 AM   #64 
  - dean won't raise payroll cap. That's "progressive". Dean is conservative!  cryofan   Jan-06-04 09:12 AM   #46 
  - Just say Dean is a liar, a dishonest person.  Hep   Jan-06-04 09:21 AM   #52 
  - Is that article your sig line?  RUMMYisFROSTED   Jan-06-04 09:31 AM   #56 
  - If the foo shits, wear it.  revcarol   Jan-06-04 01:11 PM   #89 
  - " look at reasonable options for expanding the ceiling on payroll taxes."  w4rma   Jan-06-04 09:41 AM   #60 
  - "dean won't raise payroll cap"  lifelong_Dem   Jan-06-04 12:30 PM   #85 
  - You mean the Medicare & Social Security taxes we pay? LOL LOL.  TexasSissy   Jan-06-04 10:00 AM   #63 
  - Wow  lastliberalintexas   Jan-06-04 10:19 AM   #70 
  - I'm trying to figure out if he had an actual proposal? n/t  SahaleArm   Jan-06-04 10:22 AM   #72 
  - your post seems self-contradictory. Can you clarify?  cryofan   Jan-06-04 10:43 AM   #74 
     - No, it isn't  lastliberalintexas   Jan-06-04 11:09 AM   #76 
        - I would agree with you--better to fund everything through income taxes  cryofan   Jan-06-04 11:26 AM   #78 
           - I'm not asking you to believe Dean  lastliberalintexas   Jan-06-04 11:43 AM   #81 
  - To all such critical posts  PATRICK   Jan-06-04 10:58 AM   #75 
  - This is excellent!  mzmolly   Jan-06-04 11:17 AM   #77 

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