You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login

Reply #30: "And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
featherman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
30. "And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein -
this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed" Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY)

(Honestly I don't know why I bother)

- Okay this is one of the oldest tricks in the book for aggressive nations that want to start wars. Set impossible conditions for your enemy and when they don't (can't) meet them, invade and destroy. Tariq Aziz pleaded over and over "We cannot comply. We do not have these weapons." He was right but it didn't matter.

- Second trick: it was all about Saddam Hussein, well-known bad guy. Disarm or be disarmed, you bad guy.

Problem: the "disarming" of these non-existent weapons required shock and awe raining death and destruction on the innocent people of Iraq, who had done nothing wrong, who had done nothing to us, nothing at all. Tens of thousands dead...women, children, infants, teen-agers, and Iraqi soldiers just trying to defend their country... regular people just trying to live their lives, get married, raise families, grow old together.

Five and a half years later this invading army that killed so many, destroyed so much infrastructure, impoverished an entire country is still occupying and killing every day. And apparently intends to stay for a long, long time.

Who can defend or justify this by any standard of international law or common humanity? These people had done nothing to deserve the hell we brought down on their heads.

Yes, those who authorized this unjust, cruel, and unnecessary war and created this much suffering and death for no valid reason have much to answer for.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
  -Hillary Clinton and Her Vote for the IWR Stand and Fight  Feb-01-08 12:53 AM   #0 
  - She's DLC, which is pro Iraq war and anti populist  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-01-08 12:56 AM   #1 
  - Amen.  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 12:57 AM   #3 
  - ...  MADem   Feb-01-08 12:57 AM   #4 
  - So what she said in that speech doesn't matter? Her vote trumps her beliefs?  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 12:57 AM   #5 
  - so Obama's speech doesn't matter, his non vote is what counts.  AGirl   Feb-01-08 12:59 AM   #6 
  - What non vote?  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 01:24 AM   #23 
  - If I understand you correctly, I agree...  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 01:04 AM   #11 
  - Practically all of the Democratic Senators who voted yes gave similar speeches.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 01:08 AM   #13 
  - I read the first line. What nuclear program? What WMDs? Didn't she bother to read the  John Q. Citizen   Feb-01-08 02:32 AM   #68 
  - I really must wonder if you even bothered to read the post.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 01:00 AM   #7 
  - In 3 minutes? Highly highly unlikely.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 01:04 AM   #9 
  - Right, thats why she will immediately draw down troops  niceypoo   Feb-01-08 02:12 AM   #61 
  - She's complicit. Period.  Window   Feb-01-08 04:49 AM   #106 
  - Hear, hear!  notsodumbhillbilly   Feb-01-08 04:24 PM   #139 
  - K/R  MADem   Feb-01-08 12:56 AM   #2 
  - "it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President"  maximusveritas   Feb-01-08 01:02 AM   #8 
  - You missed the part about the 1991 UN resolution.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 01:09 AM   #14 
  - But it would be without the support of congress, a BIG deal... perhaps impossible politically  Levgreee   Feb-01-08 02:09 AM   #57 
     - Do you REALLY Think it would have made Bush not go to war ?  NursesluvHillary   Feb-01-08 03:21 AM   #89 
        - So your argument is that Sen Clinton's vote to support the war was ok because Bush would have done i  rhett o rick   Feb-02-08 11:17 PM   #148 
  - And I believe that this is debatable.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 01:11 AM   #15 
  - ITA I feel Clinton was just thinking of the safety of the US .  NursesluvHillary   Feb-01-08 03:27 AM   # 
  - As soon as Obama apologies for funding it  Seeker30   Feb-01-08 01:24 AM   #22 
     - Great point  NursesluvHillary   Feb-01-08 03:16 AM   #88 
        - Another Sen Clinton supporter with less that 20 posts. There are lots of em. Is that you karl?? nm  rhett o rick   Feb-02-08 11:13 PM   #147 
  - I'm not sure what about those comments makes you feel better.  Political Heretic   Feb-01-08 01:04 AM   #10 
  - It is not FEELING better.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 01:22 AM   #19 
     - Politically, yeah, it was a smart move. Both Edwards and Kerry made the same move, politically.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 01:24 AM   #21 
        - I'll be sure and let the families of those who lost loved ones in Iraq know that  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 01:26 AM   #25 
           - Let them know that withdrawal in 2009 wouldn't have been possible were it not for it.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 01:27 AM   #26 
              - What in the FUCK does that mean?  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 01:34 AM   #31 
                 - The war was going to happen anyway.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 01:59 AM   #43 
                    - Not without congressional approval it wasnt. Thats why they had a VOTE  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 02:01 AM   #46 
                       - You're absolutely wrong. We were still at war with Iraq.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 02:03 AM   #50 
                       - then why bother with an IWR vote in the first place? You're painting yourself into a corner!  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 02:05 AM   #55 
                          - Diplomacy, the "Coalition of the Willing" wouldn't have been possible without it.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 02:08 AM   #56 
                             - What diplomacy? You yourself said the war would have happened anyway!  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 02:09 AM   #58 
                                - Yes it would've. It's not like the "Coalition of the Willing" is big.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 02:11 AM   #59 
                                   - So you're screwed then. The IWR was necessart or Bushhole wouldnt have needed it  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 02:34 AM   #70 
                                      - I never said it was necessary, the "Coalition of the Willing" wasn't necessary.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 03:25 AM   #91 
                                      - But the IWR was. War Powers says the prez cannot carry on with the military indefinitely..  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 03:34 AM   #98 
                                         - Yes, and we were at war already, don't you get that?  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 03:37 AM   #99 
                                            - No, we weren't. No war was declared. It was a military action.  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 03:39 AM   #100 
                                               - 153. [102nd] S.J.RES.2  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 03:51 AM   #102 
                                               - Note that none of the UN resolutions were revoked, and sanctions were still in effect.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 03:53 AM   #103 
                                      - dupe  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 03:26 AM   #92 
                                      - exactly EG  Carolina   Feb-01-08 07:11 AM   #115 
                                         - What?  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 07:12 AM   #116 
                                            - no he pointed out the fallacy  Carolina   Feb-01-08 07:25 AM   #119 
                                               - It was a strawman. He claimed something I never said.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 08:34 AM   #131 
                       - I would suggest that you study the first Gulf War then...  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 02:05 AM   #54 
                          - I think the IWR vote was all about Bush's re-election  aint_no_life_nowhere   Feb-01-08 02:43 AM   #78 
                          - Something else to thank Hillary for.  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 02:44 AM   #80 
                          - The problem with your argument is our Constitution.  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 03:24 AM   #90 
                             - Show me where it does. That's absurd.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 03:27 AM   #93 
                                - Bullshit. War was never declared on Iraq. Not even in 1991.  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 03:33 AM   #97 
                                   - Resolution 678  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 03:41 AM   #101 
  - I say that that is one amazing post and I heartily thank you for your service.  Yossariant   Feb-01-08 01:07 AM   #12 
  - Thank you.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 01:25 AM   #24 
  - She voted for a blank check  aint_no_life_nowhere   Feb-01-08 01:15 AM   #16 
  - Precisely. And no finger pointing at Obama will erase that.  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 02:36 AM   #73 
  - Her ass-covering speech meant absolutely nothing. Only the actual resolution had any  milkyway   Feb-01-08 01:17 AM   #17 
  - They didn't want nor need their vote.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 01:18 AM   #18 
  - Very true. As they've made clear many times, bush/cheney think their are no constraints  milkyway   Feb-01-08 01:32 AM   #28 
  - Exactly, it's a damn shame we didn't win a major plurality in the Senate.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 02:04 AM   #51 
  - All the more reason to vote "no"- and then give the reason you just gave.  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 01:32 AM   #29 
     - The same reason incumbants and other junior Senators voted for it. Politics.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 02:02 AM   #48 
        - I dont remember Kerry pandering to the boogie-man "far left." He was in the center.  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 02:15 AM   #63 
        - Most of the people, including Kennedy, who were not up for reelection, voted no.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 02:17 AM   #65 
           - We agree that they voted "yes" to look tough. It didn't work.  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 02:27 AM   #67 
              - Those incumbants were safe, I think it worked as best as it could.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 03:28 AM   #94 
        - You're rewriting history.  girl gone mad   Feb-01-08 05:52 AM   #108 
        - playing politics in a matter  Carolina   Feb-01-08 07:24 AM   #118 
  - could say the same thing about obama; who knows how he actually would have *voted* had he  VotesForWomen   Feb-01-08 04:09 AM   #105 
  - Thank you.  emilyg   Feb-01-08 01:23 AM   #20 
  - There is a wide gulf between this speech by a sitting US Senator and the ...  hayu_lol   Feb-01-08 01:34 AM   #33 
     - I concur.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 01:45 AM   #36 
     - Crystal ball approach? No, the anti-war DEMS had their facts straight.  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 01:45 AM   #37 
     - Right. Much to the chagrin of the Hillary apologists, the anti-war Dems have been vindicated  ErnestoG   Feb-01-08 01:54 AM   #40 
        - exactly!  Carolina   Feb-01-08 07:34 AM   #121 
     - the speech was spin  Carolina   Feb-01-08 07:33 AM   #120 
  - So her speech said "no" to the war, but her vote said "yes" to the war.  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 01:29 AM   #27 
  - No, her speech and her vote were for moderation -- not force.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 01:34 AM   #32 
  - That's fine. But she didnt really trust the President. She voted "yes" to look tough.  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 01:40 AM   #34 
     - In my mind, you cannot know that...  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 01:57 AM   #42 
        - I dont believe that she really thought Bush/Cheney would consider her speech.  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 02:04 AM   #52 
        - you're so right actions speak louder than words  Carolina   Feb-01-08 07:41 AM   #124 
        - Okay, then it sounds like you are trying to..  girl gone mad   Feb-01-08 06:23 AM   #111 
  - Exactly!  Carolina   Feb-01-08 07:37 AM   #122 
  - "And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein -  featherman   Feb-01-08 01:32 AM   #30 
  - I really don't think we're in disagreement on most of your points.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 01:43 AM   #35 
     - But 23 Senators did "get it" that day and stood up when it  featherman   Feb-01-08 02:00 AM   #44 
        - In fairness I must ask... What about those who fund the war?  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 02:03 AM   #49 
           - In all fairness, supporting the people who are just doing their jobs  featherman   Feb-01-08 02:12 AM   #62 
              - As an actual veteran, I know this.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 02:17 AM   #66 
                 - Do you mean de-funding the war as a means of forcing the  featherman   Feb-01-08 02:33 AM   #69 
                    - You're a pragmatist, yet you're supporting a man running a campaign based on hope? n/t  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 02:35 AM   #72 
                       - Oh, well.... if you want to get into that. I am supporting Obama  featherman   Feb-01-08 02:40 AM   #75 
                          - I can absolutely concur with you on that if that's your belief.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 02:42 AM   #77 
                             - Thanks for the chat. I'm going to bed.  featherman   Feb-01-08 02:44 AM   #79 
  - Unless I'm mistaken,  LVjinx   Feb-01-08 01:46 AM   #38 
  - Precisely.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 01:52 AM   #39 
  - What is all this "Bush would have attacked regardless" business. I never heard Hillary say that.  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 02:01 AM   #47 
     - Read her part about the 1991 resolution.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 02:11 AM   #60 
        - So her speech warned people that Bush would invade Iraq no matter what she did?  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 02:35 AM   #71 
           - This part of her speech:  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 03:30 AM   #95 
  - huh? Everyone watching TV that day saw it coming.  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 01:54 AM   #41 
  - Yes, at the time. Plenty of us saw it coming.  Hissyspit   Feb-01-08 02:04 AM   #53 
     - Very sad  Carolina   Feb-01-08 07:47 AM   #125 
  - LINK:  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 02:00 AM   #45 
  - Sometimes votes count more than words  Alpharetta   Feb-01-08 02:17 AM   #64 
  - exactly, actions speak louder than words  Carolina   Feb-01-08 07:50 AM   #126 
  - Hillary's primary failure of judgement was in not knowing that Bush would use the resolution ...  krkaufman   Feb-01-08 02:38 AM   #74 
  - Maybe she did know, and the speech was just for the suckers?  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 02:42 AM   #76 
     - DUPE n/t  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 02:46 AM   #81 
     - So, am I to take that to mean that you believe I am a sucker?  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 02:46 AM   #82 
     - Poor choice of words on my part. But yeah- someone is being fooled- and it aint Hillary.  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 02:51 AM   #84 
        - The speech wasn't for Bush to consider- it was (for) your consideration.  RUMMYisFROSTED   Feb-01-08 08:35 AM   #132 
     - Exactly. The speech is like the Bible (stretch!) ...  krkaufman   Feb-01-08 02:47 AM   #83 
     - Representing New York, could she take the chance that Bush was lying?  Yossariant   Feb-01-08 03:03 AM   #85 
        - I'd say that would have been a good bet. And Saddam didnt have anything to do with 9/11.  Dr Fate   Feb-01-08 03:13 AM   #87 
           - Most Americans believed that Saddam did have something to do with 911, even though it was a lie.  Yossariant   Feb-01-08 03:31 AM   #96 
  - I was very angry  NursesluvHillary   Feb-01-08 03:12 AM   #86 
  - dems picked kerry in 2004. it's too late to make IWR a test. write in kucinich if you really care  VotesForWomen   Feb-01-08 04:04 AM   #104 
  - Hollow words.  girl gone mad   Feb-01-08 05:44 AM   #107 
  - Not true. 70% supported military action:  Yossariant   Feb-01-08 06:05 AM   #109 
     - Did you even read the article?  girl gone mad   Feb-01-08 06:31 AM   #112 
        - FYI, IRW passed in October, 2002.  Yossariant   Feb-01-08 06:41 AM   #113 
           - No, it doesn't say that.  girl gone mad   Feb-01-08 06:55 AM   #114 
              - LOL! You are making stuff up.  Yossariant   Feb-01-08 07:14 AM   #117 
                 - Read it again.  girl gone mad   Feb-01-08 08:14 AM   #127 
                    - I'm going to try this S L O W L Y:  Yossariant   Feb-01-08 09:52 AM   #134 
                       - Are you trying to argue that the war was absolutely necessary?  girl gone mad   Feb-01-08 04:51 PM   #140 
                          - I remind you of your incorrect claim that her district was overwhelmingly against the IWR.  Yossariant   Feb-01-08 05:48 PM   #142 
                             - Your link showed no such thing.  girl gone mad   Feb-01-08 07:21 PM   #143 
  - Watch this video then tell me you still respect her. She knew Bush would use force.  sparosnare   Feb-01-08 06:13 AM   #110 
  - Excellent well thought out and presented synopsis.  desi   Feb-01-08 07:38 AM   #123 
  - Thank you. I will read this... n/t  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 12:46 PM   #135 
  - I wish I could recommend this more than once  bigtree   Feb-01-08 08:17 AM   #128 
  - It is imperative that we have honest discussions.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 12:52 PM   #136 
  - Thanks for Posting this  Geek_Girl   Feb-01-08 08:27 AM   #129 
  - "...use these powers wisely AND as a LAST RESORT." The HillHaters love blaming her for what Bush did  MethuenProgressive   Feb-01-08 08:34 AM   #130 
  - It's called faulty thinking. Black and white. Yes or no. Right or wrong.  joshcryer   Feb-01-08 08:35 AM   #133 
  - Not me. I bame her for what SHE did.  girl gone mad   Feb-01-08 07:54 PM   #146 
  - If Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton can spend two hours last night talking about policy in DETAIL...  Writer   Feb-01-08 12:54 PM   #137 
  - Thank you so much for your input. It is sincerely valued and appreciated.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 04:21 PM   #138 
  - Some of us have spent five years thinking about it.  PassingFair   Feb-01-08 05:07 PM   #141 
  - Kudos for having the courage to post this and stand up to the DU thoughtpolice  WildEyedLiberal   Feb-01-08 07:34 PM   #144 
     - I'm like you in a way.  Stand and Fight   Feb-01-08 07:44 PM   #145 

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC