featherman
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Fri Feb-01-08 01:32 AM
Response to Original message |
| 30. "And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - |
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this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed" Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY)
(Honestly I don't know why I bother)
- Okay this is one of the oldest tricks in the book for aggressive nations that want to start wars. Set impossible conditions for your enemy and when they don't (can't) meet them, invade and destroy. Tariq Aziz pleaded over and over "We cannot comply. We do not have these weapons." He was right but it didn't matter.
- Second trick: it was all about Saddam Hussein, well-known bad guy. Disarm or be disarmed, you bad guy.
Problem: the "disarming" of these non-existent weapons required shock and awe raining death and destruction on the innocent people of Iraq, who had done nothing wrong, who had done nothing to us, nothing at all. Tens of thousands dead...women, children, infants, teen-agers, and Iraqi soldiers just trying to defend their country... regular people just trying to live their lives, get married, raise families, grow old together.
Five and a half years later this invading army that killed so many, destroyed so much infrastructure, impoverished an entire country is still occupying and killing every day. And apparently intends to stay for a long, long time.
Who can defend or justify this by any standard of international law or common humanity? These people had done nothing to deserve the hell we brought down on their heads.
Yes, those who authorized this unjust, cruel, and unnecessary war and created this much suffering and death for no valid reason have much to answer for.
|
| -Hillary Clinton and Her Vote for the IWR |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 12:53 AM |
#0 |
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She's DLC, which is pro Iraq war and anti populist |
WillYourVoteBCounted |
Feb-01-08 12:56 AM |
#1 |
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Amen. |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 12:57 AM |
#3 |
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... |
MADem |
Feb-01-08 12:57 AM |
#4 |
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So what she said in that speech doesn't matter? Her vote trumps her beliefs? |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 12:57 AM |
#5 |
  -
so Obama's speech doesn't matter, his non vote is what counts. |
AGirl |
Feb-01-08 12:59 AM |
#6 |
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What non vote? |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 01:24 AM |
#23 |
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If I understand you correctly, I agree... |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 01:04 AM |
#11 |
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Practically all of the Democratic Senators who voted yes gave similar speeches. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 01:08 AM |
#13 |
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I read the first line. What nuclear program? What WMDs? Didn't she bother to read the |
John Q. Citizen |
Feb-01-08 02:32 AM |
#68 |
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I really must wonder if you even bothered to read the post. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 01:00 AM |
#7 |
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In 3 minutes? Highly highly unlikely. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 01:04 AM |
#9 |
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Right, thats why she will immediately draw down troops |
niceypoo |
Feb-01-08 02:12 AM |
#61 |
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She's complicit. Period. |
Window |
Feb-01-08 04:49 AM |
#106 |
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Hear, hear! |
notsodumbhillbilly |
Feb-01-08 04:24 PM |
#139 |
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K/R |
MADem |
Feb-01-08 12:56 AM |
#2 |
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"it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President" |
maximusveritas |
Feb-01-08 01:02 AM |
#8 |
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You missed the part about the 1991 UN resolution. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 01:09 AM |
#14 |
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But it would be without the support of congress, a BIG deal... perhaps impossible politically |
Levgreee |
Feb-01-08 02:09 AM |
#57 |
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Do you REALLY Think it would have made Bush not go to war ? |
NursesluvHillary |
Feb-01-08 03:21 AM |
#89 |
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So your argument is that Sen Clinton's vote to support the war was ok because Bush would have done i |
rhett o rick |
Feb-02-08 11:17 PM |
#148 |
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And I believe that this is debatable. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 01:11 AM |
#15 |
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ITA I feel Clinton was just thinking of the safety of the US . |
NursesluvHillary |
Feb-01-08 03:27 AM |
# |
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As soon as Obama apologies for funding it |
Seeker30 |
Feb-01-08 01:24 AM |
#22 |
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Great point |
NursesluvHillary |
Feb-01-08 03:16 AM |
#88 |
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Another Sen Clinton supporter with less that 20 posts. There are lots of em. Is that you karl?? nm |
rhett o rick |
Feb-02-08 11:13 PM |
#147 |
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I'm not sure what about those comments makes you feel better. |
Political Heretic |
Feb-01-08 01:04 AM |
#10 |
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It is not FEELING better. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 01:22 AM |
#19 |
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Politically, yeah, it was a smart move. Both Edwards and Kerry made the same move, politically. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 01:24 AM |
#21 |
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I'll be sure and let the families of those who lost loved ones in Iraq know that |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 01:26 AM |
#25 |
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Let them know that withdrawal in 2009 wouldn't have been possible were it not for it. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 01:27 AM |
#26 |
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What in the FUCK does that mean? |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 01:34 AM |
#31 |
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The war was going to happen anyway. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 01:59 AM |
#43 |
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Not without congressional approval it wasnt. Thats why they had a VOTE |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 02:01 AM |
#46 |
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You're absolutely wrong. We were still at war with Iraq. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 02:03 AM |
#50 |
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then why bother with an IWR vote in the first place? You're painting yourself into a corner! |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 02:05 AM |
#55 |
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Diplomacy, the "Coalition of the Willing" wouldn't have been possible without it. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 02:08 AM |
#56 |
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What diplomacy? You yourself said the war would have happened anyway! |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 02:09 AM |
#58 |
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Yes it would've. It's not like the "Coalition of the Willing" is big. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 02:11 AM |
#59 |
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So you're screwed then. The IWR was necessart or Bushhole wouldnt have needed it |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 02:34 AM |
#70 |
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I never said it was necessary, the "Coalition of the Willing" wasn't necessary. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 03:25 AM |
#91 |
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But the IWR was. War Powers says the prez cannot carry on with the military indefinitely.. |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 03:34 AM |
#98 |
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Yes, and we were at war already, don't you get that? |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 03:37 AM |
#99 |
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No, we weren't. No war was declared. It was a military action. |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 03:39 AM |
#100 |
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153. [102nd] S.J.RES.2 |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 03:51 AM |
#102 |
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Note that none of the UN resolutions were revoked, and sanctions were still in effect. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 03:53 AM |
#103 |
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dupe |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 03:26 AM |
#92 |
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exactly EG |
Carolina |
Feb-01-08 07:11 AM |
#115 |
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What? |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 07:12 AM |
#116 |
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no he pointed out the fallacy |
Carolina |
Feb-01-08 07:25 AM |
#119 |
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It was a strawman. He claimed something I never said. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 08:34 AM |
#131 |
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I would suggest that you study the first Gulf War then... |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 02:05 AM |
#54 |
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I think the IWR vote was all about Bush's re-election |
aint_no_life_nowhere |
Feb-01-08 02:43 AM |
#78 |
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Something else to thank Hillary for. |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 02:44 AM |
#80 |
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The problem with your argument is our Constitution. |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 03:24 AM |
#90 |
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Show me where it does. That's absurd. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 03:27 AM |
#93 |
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Bullshit. War was never declared on Iraq. Not even in 1991. |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 03:33 AM |
#97 |
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Resolution 678 |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 03:41 AM |
#101 |
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I say that that is one amazing post and I heartily thank you for your service. |
Yossariant |
Feb-01-08 01:07 AM |
#12 |
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Thank you. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 01:25 AM |
#24 |
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She voted for a blank check |
aint_no_life_nowhere |
Feb-01-08 01:15 AM |
#16 |
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Precisely. And no finger pointing at Obama will erase that. |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 02:36 AM |
#73 |
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Her ass-covering speech meant absolutely nothing. Only the actual resolution had any |
milkyway |
Feb-01-08 01:17 AM |
#17 |
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They didn't want nor need their vote. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 01:18 AM |
#18 |
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Very true. As they've made clear many times, bush/cheney think their are no constraints |
milkyway |
Feb-01-08 01:32 AM |
#28 |
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Exactly, it's a damn shame we didn't win a major plurality in the Senate. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 02:04 AM |
#51 |
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All the more reason to vote "no"- and then give the reason you just gave. |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 01:32 AM |
#29 |
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The same reason incumbants and other junior Senators voted for it. Politics. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 02:02 AM |
#48 |
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I dont remember Kerry pandering to the boogie-man "far left." He was in the center. |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 02:15 AM |
#63 |
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Most of the people, including Kennedy, who were not up for reelection, voted no. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 02:17 AM |
#65 |
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We agree that they voted "yes" to look tough. It didn't work. |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 02:27 AM |
#67 |
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Those incumbants were safe, I think it worked as best as it could. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 03:28 AM |
#94 |
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You're rewriting history. |
girl gone mad |
Feb-01-08 05:52 AM |
#108 |
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playing politics in a matter |
Carolina |
Feb-01-08 07:24 AM |
#118 |
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could say the same thing about obama; who knows how he actually would have *voted* had he |
VotesForWomen |
Feb-01-08 04:09 AM |
#105 |
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Thank you. |
emilyg |
Feb-01-08 01:23 AM |
#20 |
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There is a wide gulf between this speech by a sitting US Senator and the ... |
hayu_lol |
Feb-01-08 01:34 AM |
#33 |
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I concur. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 01:45 AM |
#36 |
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Crystal ball approach? No, the anti-war DEMS had their facts straight. |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 01:45 AM |
#37 |
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Right. Much to the chagrin of the Hillary apologists, the anti-war Dems have been vindicated |
ErnestoG |
Feb-01-08 01:54 AM |
#40 |
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exactly! |
Carolina |
Feb-01-08 07:34 AM |
#121 |
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the speech was spin |
Carolina |
Feb-01-08 07:33 AM |
#120 |
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So her speech said "no" to the war, but her vote said "yes" to the war. |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 01:29 AM |
#27 |
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No, her speech and her vote were for moderation -- not force. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 01:34 AM |
#32 |
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That's fine. But she didnt really trust the President. She voted "yes" to look tough. |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 01:40 AM |
#34 |
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In my mind, you cannot know that... |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 01:57 AM |
#42 |
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I dont believe that she really thought Bush/Cheney would consider her speech. |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 02:04 AM |
#52 |
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you're so right actions speak louder than words |
Carolina |
Feb-01-08 07:41 AM |
#124 |
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Okay, then it sounds like you are trying to.. |
girl gone mad |
Feb-01-08 06:23 AM |
#111 |
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Exactly! |
Carolina |
Feb-01-08 07:37 AM |
#122 |
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"And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - |
featherman |
Feb-01-08 01:32 AM |
#30 |
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I really don't think we're in disagreement on most of your points. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 01:43 AM |
#35 |
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But 23 Senators did "get it" that day and stood up when it |
featherman |
Feb-01-08 02:00 AM |
#44 |
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In fairness I must ask... What about those who fund the war? |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 02:03 AM |
#49 |
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In all fairness, supporting the people who are just doing their jobs |
featherman |
Feb-01-08 02:12 AM |
#62 |
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As an actual veteran, I know this. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 02:17 AM |
#66 |
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Do you mean de-funding the war as a means of forcing the |
featherman |
Feb-01-08 02:33 AM |
#69 |
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You're a pragmatist, yet you're supporting a man running a campaign based on hope? n/t |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 02:35 AM |
#72 |
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Oh, well.... if you want to get into that. I am supporting Obama |
featherman |
Feb-01-08 02:40 AM |
#75 |
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I can absolutely concur with you on that if that's your belief. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 02:42 AM |
#77 |
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Thanks for the chat. I'm going to bed. |
featherman |
Feb-01-08 02:44 AM |
#79 |
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Unless I'm mistaken, |
LVjinx |
Feb-01-08 01:46 AM |
#38 |
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Precisely. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 01:52 AM |
#39 |
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What is all this "Bush would have attacked regardless" business. I never heard Hillary say that. |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 02:01 AM |
#47 |
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Read her part about the 1991 resolution. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 02:11 AM |
#60 |
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So her speech warned people that Bush would invade Iraq no matter what she did? |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 02:35 AM |
#71 |
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This part of her speech: |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 03:30 AM |
#95 |
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huh? Everyone watching TV that day saw it coming. |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 01:54 AM |
#41 |
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Yes, at the time. Plenty of us saw it coming. |
Hissyspit |
Feb-01-08 02:04 AM |
#53 |
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Very sad |
Carolina |
Feb-01-08 07:47 AM |
#125 |
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LINK: |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 02:00 AM |
#45 |
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Sometimes votes count more than words |
Alpharetta |
Feb-01-08 02:17 AM |
#64 |
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exactly, actions speak louder than words |
Carolina |
Feb-01-08 07:50 AM |
#126 |
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Hillary's primary failure of judgement was in not knowing that Bush would use the resolution ... |
krkaufman |
Feb-01-08 02:38 AM |
#74 |
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Maybe she did know, and the speech was just for the suckers? |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 02:42 AM |
#76 |
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DUPE n/t |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 02:46 AM |
#81 |
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So, am I to take that to mean that you believe I am a sucker? |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 02:46 AM |
#82 |
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Poor choice of words on my part. But yeah- someone is being fooled- and it aint Hillary. |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 02:51 AM |
#84 |
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The speech wasn't for Bush to consider- it was (for) your consideration. |
RUMMYisFROSTED |
Feb-01-08 08:35 AM |
#132 |
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Exactly. The speech is like the Bible (stretch!) ... |
krkaufman |
Feb-01-08 02:47 AM |
#83 |
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Representing New York, could she take the chance that Bush was lying? |
Yossariant |
Feb-01-08 03:03 AM |
#85 |
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I'd say that would have been a good bet. And Saddam didnt have anything to do with 9/11. |
Dr Fate |
Feb-01-08 03:13 AM |
#87 |
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Most Americans believed that Saddam did have something to do with 911, even though it was a lie. |
Yossariant |
Feb-01-08 03:31 AM |
#96 |
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I was very angry |
NursesluvHillary |
Feb-01-08 03:12 AM |
#86 |
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dems picked kerry in 2004. it's too late to make IWR a test. write in kucinich if you really care |
VotesForWomen |
Feb-01-08 04:04 AM |
#104 |
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Hollow words. |
girl gone mad |
Feb-01-08 05:44 AM |
#107 |
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Not true. 70% supported military action: |
Yossariant |
Feb-01-08 06:05 AM |
#109 |
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Did you even read the article? |
girl gone mad |
Feb-01-08 06:31 AM |
#112 |
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FYI, IRW passed in October, 2002. |
Yossariant |
Feb-01-08 06:41 AM |
#113 |
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No, it doesn't say that. |
girl gone mad |
Feb-01-08 06:55 AM |
#114 |
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LOL! You are making stuff up. |
Yossariant |
Feb-01-08 07:14 AM |
#117 |
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Read it again. |
girl gone mad |
Feb-01-08 08:14 AM |
#127 |
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I'm going to try this S L O W L Y: |
Yossariant |
Feb-01-08 09:52 AM |
#134 |
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Are you trying to argue that the war was absolutely necessary? |
girl gone mad |
Feb-01-08 04:51 PM |
#140 |
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I remind you of your incorrect claim that her district was overwhelmingly against the IWR. |
Yossariant |
Feb-01-08 05:48 PM |
#142 |
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Your link showed no such thing. |
girl gone mad |
Feb-01-08 07:21 PM |
#143 |
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Watch this video then tell me you still respect her. She knew Bush would use force. |
sparosnare |
Feb-01-08 06:13 AM |
#110 |
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Excellent well thought out and presented synopsis. |
desi |
Feb-01-08 07:38 AM |
#123 |
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Thank you. I will read this... n/t |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 12:46 PM |
#135 |
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I wish I could recommend this more than once |
bigtree |
Feb-01-08 08:17 AM |
#128 |
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It is imperative that we have honest discussions. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 12:52 PM |
#136 |
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Thanks for Posting this |
Geek_Girl |
Feb-01-08 08:27 AM |
#129 |
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"...use these powers wisely AND as a LAST RESORT." The HillHaters love blaming her for what Bush did |
MethuenProgressive |
Feb-01-08 08:34 AM |
#130 |
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It's called faulty thinking. Black and white. Yes or no. Right or wrong. |
joshcryer |
Feb-01-08 08:35 AM |
#133 |
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Not me. I bame her for what SHE did. |
girl gone mad |
Feb-01-08 07:54 PM |
#146 |
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If Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton can spend two hours last night talking about policy in DETAIL... |
Writer |
Feb-01-08 12:54 PM |
#137 |
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Thank you so much for your input. It is sincerely valued and appreciated. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 04:21 PM |
#138 |
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Some of us have spent five years thinking about it. |
PassingFair |
Feb-01-08 05:07 PM |
#141 |
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Kudos for having the courage to post this and stand up to the DU thoughtpolice |
WildEyedLiberal |
Feb-01-08 07:34 PM |
#144 |
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I'm like you in a way. |
Stand and Fight |
Feb-01-08 07:44 PM |
#145 |