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Reply #47: You can start debunking your hollow premise here: [View All]

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
47. You can start debunking your hollow premise here:
Edited on Sat Dec-27-03 01:07 AM by Tom Rinaldo
This is taken from a September 23rd 2003 article

"Clark says after the 11 September 2001 attacks, many Bush administration officials seemed determined to move against Iraq, invoking the idea of state sponsorship of terrorism, even though there was no evidence of Iraqi sponsorship of 9/11 whatsoever.

Ousting Saddam Hussein promised concrete, visible action, the general writes, dismissing it as a Cold War approach.

Clark criticises the plan to attack the seven states, saying it targeted the wrong countries, ignored the real sources of terrorists, and failed to achieve the greater force of international law that would bring wider global support.

He also condemns George Bushs notorious Axis of Evil speech made during his 2002 State of the Union address. There were no obvious connections between Iraq, Iran, and North Korea, says Clark."

Found on Independent Media TV: http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=2654...


This is taken form a long thoughtful review of Clark's book "Winning Modern Wars". The review is on a Pro Clark Web site, but he reason they are Pro Clark includes his position vis a vis PNAC:

"Clark describes the decision by the Executive branch to escalate the war and concludes:

"And so, barely six months into the war on terror, the direction seemed set. The United States would strike, using its military superiority; it would enlarge the problem, using the strikes on 9/11 to address the larger Middle East concerns; it would attempt to make the strongest case possible in favor of its course, regardless of the nuances of the intelligence; and it would dissipate the huge outpouring of goodwill and sympathy it had received in September 2001 by going it largely alone, without support of a formal alliance or full support from the United Nations...."

"Clark spends time to detail some of the inside apparatus of policy making - taking the time to explain the importance of the quadrennial National Security Strategy of 2002 - before getting to his main thrust. Because Iraq was not organically connected to the terrorist attacks of 9/11 - the mission had to be sold as being a short strike to overthrow an imminent threat. This precluded an honest assessment of the costs and benefits of overthrowing Saddam, and therefore, when the invasion ended, and the occupation began - everyone was underprepared, including those who had backed the war policy. In order to convince the American people this was another "in and out" along the lines of Grenada, Panama, Haiti and the first Gulf War - the preparations for the occupation had to be minimal - lest they betray foreknowledge of the real cost. It smacks of Hitler failing to order winter uniforms for Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the USSR.

In tomorrow's entry will be on the remainder of Clark's argument, where Clark turns the corner - from accusing Bush of following long standing misguided dream by the far right wing in the form of the Project For A New American Century, and hence producing a failed policy, and an occupation which everyone denied until we were engaged in it - to a larger problem of America as an Empire."

Unfortunately I got that from an archive site and can't find part two of the review. Here is the link:
http://www.draftclark.com/archives/004406.shtml


Some more stuff, this from May 15th 2003 newpaper coverage of a talk by journalist Richard Dreyfuss:

"The image of the United States has changed in the eyes of the world, Dreyfuss said. We are no longer viewed as the beacon of democracy, but as the bully on the playground that picked on the weakest kid to beat up in order to intimidate others.

Dreyfuss is an award-winning independent journalist whose cover article in the April issue of American Prospect magazine, Quicksand: Iraq is Just the Beginning, was the title for the forum. His articles on national and foreign affairs appear routinely in The Nation, Rolling Stone, Mother Jones and other publications...

In his American Prospect article, Dreyfuss wrote: Six years ago, in its founding statement of principles, PNAC called for a radical change in U.S. foreign and defense policy, with a beefed-up military budget and a more muscular stance abroad, challenging hostile regimes and assuming `American global leadership. It was signed by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheneys chief of staff I. Lewis Libby and Gov. Jeb Bush, the presidents brother, among others. The PNAC statement foreshadowed the outline of the presidents 2002 national security strategy, he wrote.

The invasion of Iraq, as a component of this strategy, was not supported by many in the U.S. military, including Gen. Zinni and Gen. Wesley Clark, former head of the Allied Command, Dreyfuss noted, and top levels of the CIA, who knew there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq nor government ties to al Qaeda. terrorists."

The Link: http://www.fcnp.com/310/story4.htm


Finally I think parts of this article from a right wing Anti-Clark persspective was cited above in the thread somewhere, but here are some very relevent quotes from an article trying to make Clark out as a crack pot for EXPOSING the extent of PNAC influence. This from October 2, 2003:

"Candidate Derides Committee That Crafted Cold War Victory"

General Wesley Clark, the late entry into the race for the Democratic nomination for president, is making what critics called a bizarre, crackpot attack on a small Washington policy organization and on a citizens group that helped America win the Cold War...

... Relatively few American voters have even heard of the Project for a New American Century or remember the Committee on the Present Danger, so the flap is unlikely to sway many votes immediately. But if the interview contributes to a sense of General Clark as something of a loose cannon, that might have an effect on voters seeking a steady leader to guide the nation in the war against terrorism...

...A director of the Project for a New American Century, Randy Scheunemann, called General Clarks comments bizarre....

... This is a guy who could barely win a war in Kosovo, Mr. Scheunemann said. Now Wesley Clark is running for president by running against a think tank?

Here's that link: http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getFiles.asp?Style=Ol...


Oh by the way, here is a link to a great buzzflash interview with the co-author of "Hunting the President", Gene Lyons where he outlines the attack campaign the Republicans will use against Clark, among other things. This from October 22, 2003:

BUZZFLASH: You're probably one of the most well-informed journalists on how attack politics play themselves out with a culpable media, based on your extensive research and writing on the Clintons. How do you think the right wing is going to go after Clark? What can he expect? What advice would you give Clark and the people who are working for him?

LYONS: Well, the outlines of it are already evident. They're saying he's too tightly wrapped, which is kind of akin to what they tried to do with John McCain. They're saying he's a zealot and tends to become unhinged. They're suggesting he's crazed with ambition.

I wrote in a column a couple of weeks ago that one of their lines of attack would be to portray him as sort of General Jack D. Ripper, who was the megalomaniacal general in Dr. Strangelove who was so concerned with his precious bodily fluids. And that's what I think they will try to do. They might go all the way to the edge of suggesting some kind of mental illness. I don't think he's very vulnerable to that sort of smear."
That link: http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/10/int03221.html


Shall I repeat the right wing smear against Clark for trying to expose PNAC? Yes, I think so: "General Wesley Clark, the late entry into the race for the Democratic nomination for president, is making what critics called a bizarre, crackpot attack on a small Washington policy organization and on a citizens group that helped America win the Cold War."

And what thanks does Clark get for his trouble? A smear thread against him as potentially pro-PNAC here on the Democratic Underground.













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  -Does Wes Clark endorse the PNAC plan? sfecap  Dec-26-03 08:53 PM   #0 
  - No  Cocoa   Dec-26-03 08:58 PM   #1 
  - No  ClarkGraham2004   Dec-26-03 08:59 PM   #2 
  - Does Dean...  caber09   Dec-26-03 09:01 PM   #3 
     - I hope he does...  OrAnarch   Dec-26-03 09:10 PM   #14 
  - he did say he'd be a republican if Rove had answered his calls  TeacherCreature   Dec-26-03 09:02 PM   #4 
  - Link?  ClarkGraham2004   Dec-26-03 09:03 PM   #5 
  - link  Forkboy   Dec-26-03 09:05 PM   #9 
     - And for the real story... unspun, unraveled...  eileen_d   Dec-26-03 09:09 PM   # 
        - Even better  Forkboy   Dec-26-03 09:13 PM   #16 
        - thanks :)  maddezmom   Dec-27-03 04:03 AM   #67 
  - it's called a dry sense of humor  rumguy   Dec-26-03 09:03 PM   #6 
  - lol yes, I was gonna say....  ClarkGraham2004   Dec-26-03 09:04 PM   #8 
  - This is a Republican lie.  eileen_d   Dec-26-03 09:07 PM   #11 
  - Clark is a (recently) registered Democrat...  sfecap   Dec-26-03 09:16 PM   #17 
     - He was a military man...  rumguy   Dec-26-03 09:17 PM   #18 
     - What does being military have to do with it?  Tinoire   Dec-26-03 11:17 PM   #41 
     - if that's the way a "military man" thinks, then he doesn't belong  dfong63   Dec-26-03 11:34 PM   #43 
        - Folks, you're breaking me up now.  mikehiggins   Dec-27-03 01:26 AM   #55 
     - Thanks for pointing that out.  HawkeyeX   Dec-26-03 09:19 PM   #20 
     - and voted for Dems since 92  mmonk   Dec-26-03 10:10 PM   #32 
     - You have to admire persistence  mikehiggins   Dec-27-03 01:24 AM   #54 
        - sure does :)  maddezmom   Dec-27-03 04:04 AM   #68 
  - That was a joke he  Zuni   Dec-26-03 09:08 PM   #12 
  - it was no joke  JNelson6563   Dec-26-03 09:48 PM   #28 
     - Wasn't there another link quoted above regarding this very story?  mikehiggins   Dec-27-03 01:29 AM   #57 
  - Education  Donna Zen   Dec-26-03 09:36 PM   #24 
  - Does anyone have a clue how many times this comment has  mikehiggins   Dec-27-03 01:19 AM   #52 
  - No.  eileen_d   Dec-26-03 09:03 PM   #7 
  - Clark's Talking Points Memo interview with Josh Marshall covers it,  TacticalPeak   Dec-26-03 09:09 PM   #13 
     - Thank you  eileen_d   Dec-26-03 09:13 PM   #15 
        - A 23 year old hottie?  sfecap   Dec-26-03 09:18 PM   #19 
  - I do not see any evidence in any of those articles  Zuni   Dec-26-03 09:06 PM   #10 
  - Cutting and pasting...  Frenchie4Clark   Dec-26-03 09:22 PM   #21 
  - Gee...thanks for that link.  sfecap   Dec-26-03 09:41 PM   #25 
     - he loved Reagan's policies so much he voted for Clinton in 92, 96 and  rumguy   Dec-26-03 09:44 PM   #26 
     - Wait a minute? Isn't this just the old "not a democrat" thing?  mikehiggins   Dec-27-03 01:33 AM   #59 
  - If they want a Democrat face put on it, they had better all support it!  DuctapeFatwa   Dec-26-03 09:32 PM   #22 
  - Early and often...Clark puts down PNAC.  Donna Zen   Dec-26-03 09:33 PM   #23 
  - I still don't see a quote in which he refutes the PNAC plan.  sfecap   Dec-26-03 09:44 PM   #27 
     - no one's buying it  Cocoa   Dec-26-03 09:54 PM   #29 
     - Typical.  sfecap   Dec-26-03 09:56 PM   #30 
        - I would, if I didn't think you're playing games  Cocoa   Dec-26-03 10:08 PM   #31 
           - Then do it.  sfecap   Dec-26-03 10:17 PM   #33 
              - I'm not trying to prove anything  Cocoa   Dec-26-03 10:32 PM   #37 
                 - You are proving my point.  sfecap   Dec-26-03 10:42 PM   #40 
                    - Do you see my problem here?  mikehiggins   Dec-27-03 01:38 AM   #60 
     - read the link  Donna Zen   Dec-27-03 01:12 AM   #49 
  - In a word:no  oasis   Dec-26-03 10:19 PM   #34 
  - Yikes. This is a bit scary to me.  MGKrebs   Dec-26-03 10:24 PM   #35 
  - And here comes the "I want to like Clark" varient  mikehiggins   Dec-27-03 01:46 AM   #63 
  - See PNAC-ers angry at Clark for exposing them :  robbedvoter   Dec-26-03 10:26 PM   #36 
  - This has nothing to do with what we are talking about.  MGKrebs   Dec-26-03 10:38 PM   #38 
     - This one is hard to credit  mikehiggins   Dec-27-03 01:53 AM   #64 
  - The honest answer is no  mmonk   Dec-26-03 10:41 PM   #39 
  - This is silly  Jim4Wes   Dec-26-03 11:20 PM   #42 
  - Thanks. This makes me feel a little better.  MGKrebs   Dec-27-03 12:02 AM   #44 
  - Sorry, Jim....  sfecap   Dec-27-03 12:07 AM   #45 
     - HE HAS!  TorchTheWitch   Dec-27-03 12:57 AM   #46 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-27-03 01:12 AM   #50 
           - LOL  jmaier   Dec-27-03 01:28 AM   #56 
              - Who wudda thought, huh?  sfecap   Dec-27-03 01:30 AM   #58 
  - You can start debunking your hollow premise here:  Tom Rinaldo   Dec-27-03 01:01 AM   #47 
  - Thanks, Tom.  sfecap   Dec-27-03 01:09 AM   #48 
     - I don't see much  jmaier   Dec-27-03 01:23 AM   #53 
     - Well, as you know, it's late  Tom Rinaldo   Dec-27-03 01:41 AM   #61 
        - don't waste your fingers,  jmaier   Dec-27-03 01:44 AM   #62 
        - jmaier...  sfecap   Dec-27-03 01:58 AM   #66 
        - Tom, thanks for the excellent reply.  sfecap   Dec-27-03 01:54 AM   #65 
  - Clark is not in favor of the PNAC plan  mikehiggins   Dec-27-03 01:15 AM   #51 
 

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