alvarezadams
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Sun Jul-23-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #58 |
| 67. I think that the problem... |
|
...is ideologically-driven. It is no secret that the PNAC gang (GOP AND DLC) are closely tied to RW Israeli thinktanks. Nor is it a secret that all these groups have a worldview which is somewhat divorced from reality (obviating core causes because they usually run against their ideological values such as free-marketism, etc) to the point of cognitive dissonance. Time and time again the "hawks" of the world see that the use of force is somehow licit and expedient. Yet historically this is only true in the case of annihilation and total war. What I have not seen in the US press coverage, btw, is Siniora's comments on Hezbollah and the Shaba Farms. On the BBC and in the Spanish press, well before the invasion there were comments on them - that if Israel returned this tiny area to Lebanon, the Lebanese government would have a stronger hand in disarming Hezbollah. After all, Hezbollah's raisson d'etre is as a resistance movement against Israel, and besides the constant aerial incursions over Lebanon and Lebanese prisoners in Israel the only remaining point of contention is this handkerchief of land. Utimately I have to sadly agree with you - Israel's PM is as incompetent as ours, and for the same reason. It is based on the conservative mindset; http://www.psych.nyu.edu/jost/Jost%20&%20Hunyady%20 (2005)%20Antecedents%20and%20Consequences%20of%20Syste.pdf
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| -Simple Question: Does Israel have a right to defend itself? |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 10:34 AM |
#0 |
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define "defend" |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 10:35 AM |
#1 |
 -
exactly |
ret5hd |
Jul-23-06 10:35 AM |
#2 |
 -
Including, but not limited to, use of force. nt |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 10:35 AM |
#3 |
  -
How much force and where is it applied? |
democracyindanger |
Jul-23-06 10:38 AM |
#4 |
   -
It is a simple question. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 10:39 AM |
#7 |
  -
The problem is "it is too simple" ...war is not a simple question.. |
movonne |
Jul-23-06 11:24 AM |
#18 |
  -
Absolutely. |
BayCityProgressive |
Jul-23-06 10:38 AM |
#5 |
   -
When Israel kills 200+ civilians looking for the badguys? they're no |
Imagevision |
Jul-23-06 08:00 PM |
#116 |
  -
The question at hand is not "are they defending themselves, and only that" |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 08:02 PM |
#117 |
  -
How much force? |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 10:59 AM |
#16 |
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If someone persists in harassing you, eventually you will be at the end of |
fuzzyball |
Jul-23-06 04:12 PM |
#84 |
 -
I bet you read |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 04:51 PM |
#86 |
  -
Actually I used to think that but then this opened my eyes... |
fuzzyball |
Jul-23-06 09:42 PM |
#124 |
 -
How did the British occupation of India end? |
MN Against Bush |
Jul-25-06 11:02 PM |
#176 |
 -
Yeah |
Debs |
Jul-24-06 03:51 PM |
#154 |
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I think it is a given that they have a right to defend themselves. |
Freedom_from_Chains |
Jul-23-06 10:47 AM |
#11 |
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I think we all have a working knowledge of the general definition. I have |
MJDuncan1982 |
Jul-23-06 02:08 PM |
#38 |
  -
I disagree. |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 02:15 PM |
#42 |
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Well it's not defensive if it's overkill. That's my point. We know what is |
MJDuncan1982 |
Jul-23-06 02:27 PM |
#44 |
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Well evidently the OP |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 02:39 PM |
#47 |
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Israel Gov's definition of self-defense: slaughter innocent children |
God Almighty |
Jul-23-06 06:33 PM |
#103 |
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In YOUR definition of self-defense.... |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 07:22 PM |
#110 |
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Of course they do, but that's NOT what they are doing. |
leesa |
Jul-23-06 10:39 AM |
#6 |
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Push-Polling at its finest |
Cronus Protagonist |
Jul-24-06 05:24 PM |
#156 |
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The question is too simple..... |
panader0 |
Jul-23-06 10:40 AM |
#8 |
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Agreed |
HooptieWagon |
Jul-23-06 10:48 AM |
#14 |
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Actually, it's not a matter of "right' |
cali |
Jul-23-06 12:07 PM |
#21 |
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I feel i am being manipulated. I can't participate in this poll. nt |
jonnyblitz |
Jul-23-06 10:43 AM |
#9 |
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Of course, but not preemptively |
WatchWhatISay |
Jul-23-06 10:47 AM |
#10 |
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yep, manipulation...i won't participate either. |
NotGivingUp |
Jul-23-06 10:47 AM |
#12 |
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I'm looking forward to your next polls, |
ayeshahaqqiqa |
Jul-23-06 10:47 AM |
#13 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jul-23-06 10:51 AM |
#15 |
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"The question isn't the RIGHT to defend one's self." |
LoZoccolo |
Jul-23-06 01:44 PM |
#29 |
  -
Ah, another one who wants to broadbrush? |
alvarezadams |
Jul-23-06 01:54 PM |
#32 |
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This isn't turning one question into another question |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 01:57 PM |
#33 |
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I don't believe you |
alvarezadams |
Jul-23-06 02:04 PM |
#35 |
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"every country has such a right" -- okay. nt |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 02:05 PM |
#36 |
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Not exactly |
Jai4WKC08 |
Jul-23-06 02:03 PM |
#34 |
  -
Fair enough |
alvarezadams |
Jul-23-06 02:06 PM |
#37 |
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If these attacks are reprisals |
Jai4WKC08 |
Jul-23-06 02:50 PM |
#58 |
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I think that the problem... |
alvarezadams |
Jul-23-06 03:02 PM |
#67 |
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Perhaps a better link: |
alvarezadams |
Jul-23-06 03:06 PM |
#68 |
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I can't go along with lumping PNAC and the DLC |
Jai4WKC08 |
Jul-23-06 03:39 PM |
#80 |
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You'll have to just deal with it then |
alvarezadams |
Jul-24-06 10:59 AM |
#151 |
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What principle of International Law requires a state to exhaust all |
MJDuncan1982 |
Jul-23-06 02:09 PM |
#39 |
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The UN Charter |
alvarezadams |
Jul-23-06 02:41 PM |
#49 |
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I agree with the responders who call this the wrong question. |
Jim__ |
Jul-23-06 11:23 AM |
#17 |
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I think it's a great question. It's a base question that must be answered |
MJDuncan1982 |
Jul-23-06 02:11 PM |
#40 |
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No, we can't be allowed to set our principles first. |
BullGooseLoony |
Jul-24-06 06:11 AM |
#137 |
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All nations have a right to defend themselves. |
Crunchy Frog |
Jul-23-06 11:27 AM |
#19 |
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Wow |
Debs |
Jul-24-06 03:58 PM |
#155 |
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kick |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 11:53 AM |
#20 |
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Is invading another nation an act of defense? Bush says yes. |
Radical Activist |
Jul-23-06 12:12 PM |
#22 |
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Itself, yes; its conquests, no. |
Donald Ian Rankin |
Jul-23-06 12:12 PM |
#23 |
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Defend yes, unleash a blitzkrieg on another country....NO. |
Cascadian |
Jul-23-06 12:19 PM |
#24 |
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yes and so do the Palestinians and neither has the right to harm civilians |
Douglas Carpenter |
Jul-23-06 12:54 PM |
#25 |
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In proportion to the threat |
JNelson6563 |
Jul-23-06 01:00 PM |
#26 |
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Those who voted "no" -- would you explain your point of view, please? nt |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 01:28 PM |
#27 |
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If you wanted more than a "simple yes or no" |
democracyindanger |
Jul-23-06 01:43 PM |
#28 |
  -
Interesting. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 01:46 PM |
#30 |
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What do you think the odds are |
democracyindanger |
Jul-23-06 01:52 PM |
#31 |
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Well that's pretty intellectually dishonest. If you don't like the poll, |
MJDuncan1982 |
Jul-23-06 02:12 PM |
#41 |
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I don't disagree |
democracyindanger |
Jul-23-06 02:31 PM |
#45 |
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I wouldn't have a problem saying, "No, we should not kill babies." |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 02:40 PM |
#48 |
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Define "baby". n/t |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 02:42 PM |
#51 |
  -
LOL |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 02:48 PM |
#55 |
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"Pro-lifers" say |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 02:50 PM |
#59 |
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Easy answer: No. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 02:58 PM |
#65 |
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You HAVE to define "baby" |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 04:52 PM |
#87 |
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I've defined "baby." |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 04:54 PM |
#89 |
  -
Ah - but you're asking people |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 04:56 PM |
#91 |
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That's right. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 05:17 PM |
#93 |
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*I* understand what you're saying..... |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 05:52 PM |
#95 |
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Someplace inbetween |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 06:23 PM |
#99 |
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take a look |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 06:27 PM |
#101 |
  -
That's a push-poll. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 07:18 PM |
#108 |
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And that makes you a good debater. nt |
BullGooseLoony |
Jul-24-06 06:19 AM |
#139 |
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No, you don't. I'm pro-choice whether it's a baby or not. nt |
BullGooseLoony |
Jul-24-06 06:18 AM |
#138 |
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So you don't think women should have control of their bodies? |
democracyindanger |
Jul-23-06 02:49 PM |
#57 |
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Do you think a fetus is a baby? |
Jai4WKC08 |
Jul-23-06 02:52 PM |
#61 |
  -
You're getting into details. |
democracyindanger |
Jul-23-06 02:55 PM |
#63 |
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LOL!!! |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 02:59 PM |
#66 |
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What's funny |
democracyindanger |
Jul-23-06 03:24 PM |
#76 |
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Yeah, I'm a little slow, huh... |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 03:35 PM |
#78 |
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One gets that a lot around here. nt |
BullGooseLoony |
Jul-24-06 06:06 AM |
#136 |
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I voted no because "right" implies an absolute right. |
Donald Ian Rankin |
Jul-24-06 08:15 AM |
#140 |
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As you can see, and knew already, it is not as you claimed |
bennywhale |
Jul-24-06 10:38 AM |
#147 |
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Does Iraq |
skeeters2525 |
Jul-23-06 02:18 PM |
#43 |
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Okay, I'll respond.... This has been fascinating. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 02:32 PM |
#46 |
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so have you stopped beating your wife? |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 02:41 PM |
#50 |
  -
Do you think I asked a trick question? |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 02:43 PM |
#52 |
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under the circumstances, yes. |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 02:47 PM |
#54 |
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That's a separate question. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 02:49 PM |
#56 |
  -
Why do you say that? |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 02:52 PM |
#60 |
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Yes, that's what this thread shows. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 02:55 PM |
#64 |
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It shouldn't be astonishing. |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 04:54 PM |
#88 |
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:) |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 05:16 PM |
#92 |
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By george - I think you're getting it! |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 05:46 PM |
#94 |
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"the methodology" -- I don't think you're getting it |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 06:07 PM |
#97 |
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Probably not the best example to use for me...... |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 06:26 PM |
#100 |
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Some things need to be stated in black and white terms. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 07:16 PM |
#107 |
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You're talking to the wrong person |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 08:14 PM |
#118 |
  -
You still don't get it. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 08:20 PM |
#119 |
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No - YOU don't get it! |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 08:28 PM |
#120 |
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Some people just want to be right and will not "get " . . . |
Sugarcoated |
Jul-25-06 06:29 PM |
#175 |
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That's not a fair comparison |
Jai4WKC08 |
Jul-23-06 03:15 PM |
#73 |
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(sigh) - - define "defend"....... |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 04:55 PM |
#90 |
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It helps when you explain your reasoning |
alvarezadams |
Jul-23-06 02:46 PM |
#53 |
  -
Raised eyebrows |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 02:54 PM |
#62 |
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Aw c'mon |
alvarezadams |
Jul-23-06 03:08 PM |
#69 |
  -
My answer would be "yes." |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 03:08 PM |
#70 |
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You wouldn't have thought twice... |
alvarezadams |
Jul-23-06 03:11 PM |
#71 |
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Good grief. What have we become when |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 03:17 PM |
#74 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jul-23-06 03:25 PM |
#77 |
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unambigious |
oberliner |
Jul-23-06 03:13 PM |
#72 |
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Precisely. nt |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 03:18 PM |
#75 |
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New Question -- do the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves? n/t |
stranger81 |
Jul-23-06 03:41 PM |
#81 |
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Yes. nt |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 03:49 PM |
#83 |
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Have the Israeli's instigated or started any attacks on Palestinians? |
fuzzyball |
Jul-23-06 04:16 PM |
#85 |
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I can't believe you're asking this. |
Donald Ian Rankin |
Jul-24-06 08:20 AM |
#141 |
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The real question is who STARTS the trouble first? |
fuzzyball |
Jul-24-06 10:30 AM |
#145 |
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Probably, but not certainly, not. |
Donald Ian Rankin |
Jul-24-06 10:57 AM |
#150 |
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Agree & disagree. Agree that Israeli retribution is far too disproportiona |
fuzzyball |
Jul-24-06 10:26 PM |
#157 |
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Ah, not exactly |
Debs |
Jul-25-06 06:59 AM |
#164 |
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Looks like you have better information than the MSM.....congrats! |
fuzzyball |
Jul-25-06 12:47 PM |
#170 |
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Actually I think its silly |
Debs |
Jul-25-06 05:20 PM |
#172 |
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If I were the government of Israel |
Donald Ian Rankin |
Jul-25-06 09:43 AM |
#169 |
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My guess is Israel would basically go along with your plan IF |
fuzzyball |
Jul-25-06 12:51 PM |
#171 |
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I think you're overoptimistic. |
Donald Ian Rankin |
Jul-25-06 05:38 PM |
#173 |
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Yes I believe Israel would attack Lebbanon |
Debs |
Jul-25-06 06:55 AM |
#163 |
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Who here remembers the name |
Debs |
Jul-25-06 07:12 AM |
#167 |
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what a straw man |
stranger81 |
Jul-23-06 03:38 PM |
#79 |
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"Whether Israel ...has the right to DEFEND itself is not in question." |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 03:49 PM |
#82 |
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nt |
BullGooseLoony |
Jul-24-06 05:41 AM |
#134 |
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When did "an eye for an eye" become "an eye for you and your kids' lives"? |
Czolgosz |
Jul-23-06 06:01 PM |
#96 |
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I didn't ask, "Is Israel defending itself, and only defending itself?" |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 06:09 PM |
#98 |
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Does an alcoholic have a |
mzteris |
Jul-23-06 06:28 PM |
#102 |
 -
So your answer is "yes." |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 07:25 PM |
#112 |
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I didn't respond to your poll question. But while we're chatting when did |
Czolgosz |
Jul-23-06 06:36 PM |
#104 |
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I'm neither asking that, nor debating it. See my reply above. nt |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 07:19 PM |
#109 |
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How about this one: Does Israel's right to defend itself exceed Lebanon's? |
Czolgosz |
Jul-23-06 07:25 PM |
#111 |
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No. nt |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 07:25 PM |
#113 |
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How 'bout: Does Israel have a right to attack a whole country to defend |
Czolgosz |
Jul-23-06 07:33 PM |
#114 |
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That's a debate on what constitutes defense -- a second question. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 07:37 PM |
#115 |
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But the debate you ask about is not a real debate, as your results suggest |
Czolgosz |
Jul-23-06 10:40 PM |
#125 |
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Huh? What's the "debate I ask about?" Splain, I'm slow.... nt |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 10:42 PM |
#126 |
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The question "does Israel have a right to defend itself" is a false debate |
Czolgosz |
Jul-23-06 11:09 PM |
#127 |
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I disagree. It's a real question. |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 11:20 PM |
#128 |
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You know (or should know) the 13% saying "no" are those objecting to your |
Czolgosz |
Jul-24-06 12:03 AM |
#129 |
 -
If every democracy has a right to defend itself |
Sparkly |
Jul-24-06 12:07 AM |
#130 |
  -
Do you disagree your thread is more debate about the bias of your question |
Czolgosz |
Jul-24-06 12:17 AM |
#131 |
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Yes, and isn't that amazing? |
Sparkly |
Jul-24-06 01:10 AM |
#132 |
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I voted no because it includes disproportionate force n/t |
Slaughtermeyer |
Jul-24-06 08:23 AM |
#143 |
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I think you are making assumptions |
Debs |
Jul-25-06 07:05 AM |
#165 |
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Well, Bush says he's defending USA in Iraq. Poll that |
Little Star |
Jul-23-06 06:46 PM |
#105 |
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"Does America have a right to defend itself?" |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 07:12 PM |
#106 |
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Stupid question, refuse to answer. |
guidod |
Jul-23-06 08:56 PM |
#121 |
 -
"Stupid question?" |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 09:31 PM |
#122 |
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It's clearly a loaded question... |
V. Kid |
Jul-24-06 04:36 AM |
#133 |
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I hope the 15% who voted "no" will come out of the closet |
Sparkly |
Jul-23-06 09:34 PM |
#123 |
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I have done so further up the page. |
Donald Ian Rankin |
Jul-24-06 08:22 AM |
#142 |
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In theory, yes. |
BullGooseLoony |
Jul-24-06 05:57 AM |
#135 |
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Not a simple question, and no simple answer. |
LWolf |
Jul-24-06 08:42 AM |
#144 |
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Stupid question which leads to the wrong place. There's lies, lies |
bennywhale |
Jul-24-06 10:35 AM |
#146 |
-
Attacked First? |
cookiebird |
Jul-24-06 10:40 AM |
#148 |
 -
And statements from Jews that |
Debs |
Jul-25-06 07:09 AM |
#166 |
-
of course. |
ulysses |
Jul-24-06 10:42 AM |
#149 |
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Why don't we make a special place for these posts so we don't have |
Sapere aude |
Jul-24-06 11:06 AM |
#152 |
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Of course Israel has a right to defend itself |
Debs |
Jul-24-06 03:48 PM |
#153 |
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Yes, every nation has the right of self-defense, however |
IndianaGreen |
Jul-24-06 10:36 PM |
#158 |
-
from what? |
leftofthedial |
Jul-24-06 10:40 PM |
#159 |
-
does anyone have the right to defend themselves while |
samsingh |
Jul-25-06 12:00 AM |
#160 |
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yes, Israel has a right to defend itself.... |
unkachuck |
Jul-25-06 12:45 AM |
#161 |
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of course, but that doesn't justify it's current actions |
rman |
Jul-25-06 01:16 AM |
#162 |
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Yes. Every sovereign nation has the right to defend itself. |
baldguy |
Jul-25-06 08:00 AM |
#168 |
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Yes, but not to the extent of indiscriminately bombing innocent civilians. |
Zhade |
Jul-25-06 05:54 PM |
#174 |