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Reply #52: Griffin's method is poor [View All]

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Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. Griffin's method is poor
Whilst he writes well and this may help gloss over some of the poorer passages in his books, it cannot hide that he is only as good as the authors on whom he is relying and they have a distinctintly uneven quality. Of them I would put Paul Thompson at the top and Thierry Meyssan very firmly at the bottom. I read one of Meyssan's books (Pentagate) and it was absolutely awful. Whatever you do, don't buy it.

(1) I prefer the www.911review.com position because they clearly demonstrate with photographs that the hole was 90 feet wide. The 90-foot wide hole is visible in the photographs (the link to the Guardian analysis is well worth following, even if it is a long article); as the 90-width can be seen, the hole cannot be 18 feet. 911review.com is one of the most highly regarded sites in the "9/11 truth movement" (and rightly so) and they believe (I don't, by the way) that the attack was a false-flag operation by the US government, so I really, really doubt they work for the government.

(2) There is also a discussion of the wreckage at 911review.com. You can find it here:
http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/nodebris.html
The piece of wreckage I posted seems rather large for a missile - aren't they supposed to explode on impact? In addition, as far as I can see its curvature roughly corresponds to that of a 757 body. Further, we can see the red paint characteristic of the American Airlines logo.

Anyway, here's another piccy:


(3) I saw this manifest about a year ago, although I believe it was published in 2001. I assume that Griffin took his claim from an untrustworthy source and declined to check it.

(4) You said "other witnesses noted a missile hitting the Pentagon." However, as far as I could see, in the link you provided there were merely some witnesses to (part of) the event who compared the plane to a missile.
911review.com says it very well:
"Literature of the no-757-crash theorists is full of suggestions that eyewitness saw something other than a 757 fly into the Pentagon, such as a commuter jet or cruise missile. In fact only a few eyewitness recalled seeing a plane smaller than a jetliner, and none reported seeing a missile. In contrast there is an abundance of accounts describing a large twin-engine jetliner like a 757."
http://www.911review.com/errors/pentagon/witnesses.html

(5)(a) Well, General Myers would say that wouldn't he.
The Terror Timeline says:
"A few minutes after 9:03 a.m., a squadron pilot at Andrews Air Force Base, Maryland (just ten miles from Washington), hears that two planes have crashed into the WTC. He calls a friend in the Secret Service to see what's going on. The Secret Service calls back, and asks whether Andrews can scramble fighters. According to weapons officer, Major Dan Caine, who takes this call, the Secret Service agent then tells them to stand by and that somebody else call. Apparently anticipating the need, one commander has already started preparing weapons for the fighters. However, the weapons are located in a bunker on the other side of The Base, and the process takes time. The fighters don't take off for about another hour and a half (see (10:42 a.m.)). Apparently anticipating the need to launch fighters, one commander has already started preparing weapons for the fighters. However, the weapons are located in a bunker on the other side of the base, and the process takes time. Senior Master Sergeant David Bowman, 113th Wing munitions supervisor, says, We were doing it as fast as we could, because for all we knew the terrorists were getting ready to hit us. It normally takes three hours to get weapons from the storage sheds and load them onto the fighters. However, on this occasion, it is later claimed, it only takes 45 minutes. The fighters don't take off though for about another hour and a half (10:42 a.m.)."
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:0jVlVMF3tpIJ:www.co...

(b) AFAIK Kyle Hence sometimes asks good questions and sometimes doesn't. I don't think this is any big deal. He hung up, so what?

(c) "combat units in the highest possible state of readiness" does not mean alert fighters. There was a system of alert fighters and it didn't include Andrews. There are lots of journalists and professionals who know this.

IMHO the main point that should be made in reference to the poor air defense response (the quality of the response actually deteriorated during the crisis) is that after 9:03 it was an absolute no-brainer that Washington was a potential target and it is hard to see why the national command did not realise this. The first non-alert fighter was scrambled at 9:29 (with the two alert ones from Langley) and non-alert bases who called and offered to scrambled non-alert fighters were not urged to do so. What on earth were they doing?
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  -Flight 77, the Fake War on Terror, and the Dubai Port Deal Time for change  Feb-27-06 04:27 PM   #0 
  - An exceptional compilation. Nominated.  Just Me   Feb-27-06 04:34 PM   #1 
  - This is the new millenium version of JFK  EOO   Feb-27-06 04:37 PM   #2 
  - That's the big question I have...  KansDem   Feb-27-06 04:43 PM   #4 
  - That part of what happened on 9/11 is the most mind-boggling  EOO   Feb-27-06 04:50 PM   #6 
  - I think that the administration was complicit in the attacks  Time for change   Feb-27-06 06:12 PM   #11 
  - K&R... bookmarked  Canuckistanian   Feb-27-06 04:42 PM   #3 
  - Excellent, as always. Recommended. Bookmarked.  understandinglife   Feb-27-06 04:44 PM   #5 
  - really dumb  Bacchus39   Feb-27-06 04:50 PM   #7 
  - I'll try to address your concerns, but there's no need to call me dumb  Time for change   Feb-27-06 05:36 PM   #10 
  - The video is the biggest question to answer  IronLionZion   Feb-28-06 01:18 PM   #42 
  - your theory still has not accounted for the plane and the passengers.  MrSammo1   Feb-27-06 06:57 PM   #17 
  - so glad you took the time to post...  Psyop Samurai   Feb-27-06 07:22 PM   #22 
  - ...still has not accounted for the plane and the passengers.  MrSammo1   Feb-28-06 01:41 PM   #46 
     - I think you meant this reply to post # 7, right? n/t  Time for change   Feb-28-06 02:06 PM   #47 
        - Well............Duh......on my part.......  MrSammo1   Feb-28-06 02:34 PM   #51 
  - Then why were all the video tapes confiscated.  drdtroit   Feb-28-06 02:19 PM   #49 
  - Neither Has Your Comments - Show Us the Video of Pentagon Crash  we can do it   Mar-01-06 11:25 AM   #60 
  - I'm SO sick of these threads getting locked and moved  RazzleDazzle   Feb-27-06 05:00 PM   #8 
  - That summary has a tremendous amount of information in it - thank you  Time for change   Feb-27-06 06:21 PM   #13 
  - Me Too - I Am Withholding Any Further Donation Until It Ceases  we can do it   Mar-01-06 11:29 AM   #62 
  - Hyping Terror For Fun, Profit - And Power  iconoclastNYC   Feb-27-06 05:18 PM   #9 
  - Wow, that's amazing  Time for change   Feb-27-06 07:02 PM   #18 
  - moved... okay... but I can't even recommend posts in here  BelgianMadCow   Feb-27-06 06:12 PM   #12 
  - I had seen some 9/11 posts on GD recently, so I thought it was ok  Time for change   Feb-27-06 08:54 PM   #26 
     - I think the problem may be that scattered within  greyl   Feb-28-06 08:13 AM   #31 
        - Thanks - please tell me what assertions you are referring to n/t  Time for change   Feb-28-06 09:09 AM   #33 
           - The entire middle section.  greyl   Feb-28-06 09:30 AM   #34 
              - Can you be more specific?  Time for change   Feb-28-06 10:46 AM   #36 
                 - Compare your post 35 with the related info from this link:  greyl   Feb-28-06 11:26 AM   #37 
                    - Burden of proof...  EOTE   Feb-28-06 12:40 PM   #38 
                    - Burden of proof indeed.  greyl   Feb-28-06 01:14 PM   #41 
                    - In other words, you're telling me to go find out myself  Time for change   Feb-28-06 01:11 PM   #40 
                       - Suit yourself, I'm easy.  greyl   Feb-28-06 01:32 PM   #45 
                          - I'm sorry that I sounded confrontational about this  Time for change   Feb-28-06 02:16 PM   #48 
                             - Sure, yes that's what I had in mind. :) nt  greyl   Feb-28-06 02:21 PM   #50 
                                - Collapse of the twin towers  Time for change   Mar-02-06 07:57 PM   #68 
                                   - Did you hit "post" before  greyl   Mar-03-06 05:25 PM   #75 
                                      - I don't know what happened  Time for change   Mar-03-06 05:45 PM   #76 
  - Here is an excellent video  sunnystarr   Feb-27-06 06:37 PM   #14 
  - Yes, that is excellent indeed  Time for change   Feb-27-06 08:05 PM   #25 
  - The 9/11 Commission Report is a Whitewash.  reprehensor   Feb-27-06 06:45 PM   #15 
  - It certainly was  Time for change   Feb-27-06 07:09 PM   #20 
  - No more recs...  hootinholler   Feb-27-06 06:46 PM   #16 
  - Thanks for trying  Time for change   Feb-28-06 07:34 AM   #29 
  - There is a logical reason the FAA delayed in contacting NORAD  Jose Diablo   Feb-27-06 07:07 PM   #19 
  - Yes, that's a pretty good explanation  Time for change   Feb-27-06 07:12 PM   #21 
     - I keep going over this stuff.  atomic-fly   Feb-27-06 07:40 PM   #23 
        - Of course they have the MSM to help keep the lid on this  Time for change   Feb-27-06 08:03 PM   #24 
  - Loose Change II Giving Away Plain-Wrapper Copies At Cost!  corbett   Feb-27-06 10:18 PM   #27 
  - Thank you -- I just viewed the video that Sunnystar supplied yesterday  Time for change   Feb-28-06 07:30 AM   #28 
  - No they aren't.  greyl   Feb-28-06 08:07 AM   #30 
  - It's out now, just watch it on Google video for free nt  IronLionZion   Feb-28-06 01:22 PM   #44 
  - Or just watch it for free on Google Video  IronLionZion   Feb-28-06 01:21 PM   #43 
  - Your cavalier disregard for the facts  Kevin Fenton   Feb-28-06 09:07 AM   #32 
  - My response to your criticisms  Time for change   Feb-28-06 10:42 AM   #35 
  - Griffin's method is poor  Kevin Fenton   Feb-28-06 02:36 PM   #52 
  - I prefer the www.911review.com position  MrSammo1   Feb-28-06 03:02 PM   #53 
  - I'd like to get down to the heart of the matter  Time for change   Feb-28-06 03:20 PM   #54 
     - The difference between incompetence and MIHOP  Kevin Fenton   Feb-28-06 04:11 PM   #55 
     - I'd like to see if I understand your position correctly  Time for change   Feb-28-06 05:44 PM   #56 
     - It's like this...  Kevin Fenton   Feb-28-06 11:54 PM   #58 
        - Collapse of the WTC buildings and military response to Flight 77  Time for change   Mar-01-06 09:40 AM   #59 
        - Lots  Kevin Fenton   Mar-01-06 11:27 AM   #61 
           - I'm very skeptical about all this  Time for change   Mar-01-06 12:38 PM   #64 
              - Technical answer  Kevin Fenton   Mar-01-06 01:48 PM   #65 
                 - I see four reasons to favor the theory that the Bush administration had  Time for change   Mar-02-06 07:27 PM   #67 
                    - Unocal, etc.  Kevin Fenton   Mar-03-06 04:09 AM   #69 
                       - They couldn't have gotten near the NYSE  dailykoff   Mar-03-06 04:57 AM   #70 
                       - Map  Kevin Fenton   Mar-03-06 06:02 AM   #71 
                          - 1) Too far, 2) No  dailykoff   Mar-03-06 08:06 AM   #73 
                       - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-03-06 05:19 PM   #74 
                          - Afghanistan, Cheney  Kevin Fenton   Mar-04-06 01:51 AM   #77 
                             - Response  Time for change   Mar-04-06 07:39 AM   #78 
        - I like this argument.  Bushwick Bill   Mar-01-06 12:06 PM   #63 
           - Thank you  Kevin Fenton   Mar-01-06 02:23 PM   #66 
     - but that the no-757 argument at the Pentagon is an absolute donkey that do  MrSammo1   Feb-28-06 07:23 PM   #57 
     - This may clear it up some  The Straight Story   Aug-20-06 04:45 PM   #81 
  - About the differences in Manifests  The Straight Story   Aug-20-06 04:39 PM   #80 
  - ah yes, the infamous smoke and water jet covered hole  rman   Mar-03-06 06:29 AM   #72 
  - You know what makes a nice round hole in a building?  IronLionZion   Feb-28-06 01:04 PM   #39 
  - Griffin's book will go down in history as the best account of 9/11  rverne8   Aug-20-06 03:19 PM   #79 
 

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