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Reply #35: My response to your criticisms [View All]

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. My response to your criticisms
First of all, I would like to clarify that I did not cavalierly disregard any facts. Any relevant facts not included in my post were left out because I wasn't aware of them, and also of course I wanted to keep the post within a reasonable length.

Also, I make it clear both in the second paragraph of the post and in the paragraph right before the "Summary of some striking problems..." section, that I am basing much of my discussion on 9-11 on Griffin's book, and I don't pretend to have independent expertise on the technical issues that I discuss. Also, I note (or imply) that Griffin himself didn't pretend to have independent expertise on many of the technical issues he discussed, but rather his main point was that these were issues of controversy that should have at least been addressed by the 9/11 Commission.

Now, to address your individual points as best I can:

(1) You point out that there has been an analysis of the hole and other damage to the Pentagon purported to have been caused by Flight 77, which indicate that indeed this damage is consistent with a Boeing jet crashing into the Pentagon -- and you feel that this analysis is better than or supercedes the other analyses that contend the opposite viewpoint. I was not aware of this information, and at this point, not having any information on any rebuttal to that analysis, I'm not going to attempt an independent assessment of the photographs, which is beyond my technical skill.

One thing worth mentioning about this, I believe, is that the author of the article that discusses this analysis is anonymous. Could this have been written by a government official? In any event it is not clear to me why you prefer this analysis to others which have come to an opposite conclusion.

(2) You object to the quotation in my OP that no large pieces of a plane were found in the vicinity, and you combat that conclusion by showing a picture of something. It is not at all evident to me that the picture you provide represents a large piece of a plane (or any piece of a plane), as opposed to a missile. Is it obvious to you?

And anyhow, if there was nothing to hide, then why did the FBI seize the video of the event:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/12/1211_wi...

(3) Griffin stated in his 2005 book that "the flight manifests that have been released have no Arab names on them". He provides references for that in his book, and I found another reference for that claim.

Yet you provide a manifest that has 5 Arab names on it. Can you explain the discrepancy? Was the reference you provided here released after Griffin's 2005 book? And whether it was or not, why would it differ from the manifests that Griffin has seen, which lead him to his conclusion noted above?

(4) You ask me for a link to my assertion that other witnesses noted a missile hitting the Pentagon.
I provided a link to that in my OP, under a hyperlink entitled "missile".
Here it is again, and it provides links to the statements of several witnesses who saw something that they believed not to be a plane:
http://www.thewebfairy.com/killtown/oddities/911.html#P...

(5)
a) General Myers himself said shortly after 9/11 that fighter planes were sent up from Andrews AFB within minutes of the attack on the Pentagon, and here is an article that supports that:
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2...
But if they could be sent up AFTER the attack, why not before?

b) Griffin relates in his book a converstaion he had with Kyle Hence, co-founder of Citizens Watch, where Hence notes a conversation he had with Donald Arias, Chief of Public Affairs for NORAD's Continental Region. Hence notes that when he tried to press Arias on his contention that no figher planes were available at Andrews to defend the capital, Arias hung up on him. Griffin references this conversation with Arias with e-mails that he has in his posession.

c) Griffin notes that the U.S. military's website just prior to 9-11 stated the following about Andrews AFB, referring to its 121st Fighter Squadron: "This squadron, equipped with F-16s, was said to provid 'capable and ready response forces for the District of Columbia in the event of natural disaster or civil emergency'". And the Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 321 provided "maintenance and supply functions necessary to maintain a force in readiness." (NYT September 15th, 2001) And the District of Columbia Air National Guard website said that its mission was "to provide combat units in the highest possible state of readiness". (NYT September 12th, 2001). Griffin then goes on to describe on page 163 of his book how shortly after 9-11 these websites either came down or were changed substantially to indicate a lesser state of alert for Andrews AFB.


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  -Flight 77, the Fake War on Terror, and the Dubai Port Deal Time for change  Feb-27-06 04:27 PM   #0 
  - An exceptional compilation. Nominated.  Just Me   Feb-27-06 04:34 PM   #1 
  - This is the new millenium version of JFK  EOO   Feb-27-06 04:37 PM   #2 
  - That's the big question I have...  KansDem   Feb-27-06 04:43 PM   #4 
  - That part of what happened on 9/11 is the most mind-boggling  EOO   Feb-27-06 04:50 PM   #6 
  - I think that the administration was complicit in the attacks  Time for change   Feb-27-06 06:12 PM   #11 
  - K&R... bookmarked  Canuckistanian   Feb-27-06 04:42 PM   #3 
  - Excellent, as always. Recommended. Bookmarked.  understandinglife   Feb-27-06 04:44 PM   #5 
  - really dumb  Bacchus39   Feb-27-06 04:50 PM   #7 
  - I'll try to address your concerns, but there's no need to call me dumb  Time for change   Feb-27-06 05:36 PM   #10 
  - The video is the biggest question to answer  IronLionZion   Feb-28-06 01:18 PM   #42 
  - your theory still has not accounted for the plane and the passengers.  MrSammo1   Feb-27-06 06:57 PM   #17 
  - so glad you took the time to post...  Psyop Samurai   Feb-27-06 07:22 PM   #22 
  - ...still has not accounted for the plane and the passengers.  MrSammo1   Feb-28-06 01:41 PM   #46 
     - I think you meant this reply to post # 7, right? n/t  Time for change   Feb-28-06 02:06 PM   #47 
        - Well............Duh......on my part.......  MrSammo1   Feb-28-06 02:34 PM   #51 
  - Then why were all the video tapes confiscated.  drdtroit   Feb-28-06 02:19 PM   #49 
  - Neither Has Your Comments - Show Us the Video of Pentagon Crash  we can do it   Mar-01-06 11:25 AM   #60 
  - I'm SO sick of these threads getting locked and moved  RazzleDazzle   Feb-27-06 05:00 PM   #8 
  - That summary has a tremendous amount of information in it - thank you  Time for change   Feb-27-06 06:21 PM   #13 
  - Me Too - I Am Withholding Any Further Donation Until It Ceases  we can do it   Mar-01-06 11:29 AM   #62 
  - Hyping Terror For Fun, Profit - And Power  iconoclastNYC   Feb-27-06 05:18 PM   #9 
  - Wow, that's amazing  Time for change   Feb-27-06 07:02 PM   #18 
  - moved... okay... but I can't even recommend posts in here  BelgianMadCow   Feb-27-06 06:12 PM   #12 
  - I had seen some 9/11 posts on GD recently, so I thought it was ok  Time for change   Feb-27-06 08:54 PM   #26 
     - I think the problem may be that scattered within  greyl   Feb-28-06 08:13 AM   #31 
        - Thanks - please tell me what assertions you are referring to n/t  Time for change   Feb-28-06 09:09 AM   #33 
           - The entire middle section.  greyl   Feb-28-06 09:30 AM   #34 
              - Can you be more specific?  Time for change   Feb-28-06 10:46 AM   #36 
                 - Compare your post 35 with the related info from this link:  greyl   Feb-28-06 11:26 AM   #37 
                    - Burden of proof...  EOTE   Feb-28-06 12:40 PM   #38 
                    - Burden of proof indeed.  greyl   Feb-28-06 01:14 PM   #41 
                    - In other words, you're telling me to go find out myself  Time for change   Feb-28-06 01:11 PM   #40 
                       - Suit yourself, I'm easy.  greyl   Feb-28-06 01:32 PM   #45 
                          - I'm sorry that I sounded confrontational about this  Time for change   Feb-28-06 02:16 PM   #48 
                             - Sure, yes that's what I had in mind. :) nt  greyl   Feb-28-06 02:21 PM   #50 
                                - Collapse of the twin towers  Time for change   Mar-02-06 07:57 PM   #68 
                                   - Did you hit "post" before  greyl   Mar-03-06 05:25 PM   #75 
                                      - I don't know what happened  Time for change   Mar-03-06 05:45 PM   #76 
  - Here is an excellent video  sunnystarr   Feb-27-06 06:37 PM   #14 
  - Yes, that is excellent indeed  Time for change   Feb-27-06 08:05 PM   #25 
  - The 9/11 Commission Report is a Whitewash.  reprehensor   Feb-27-06 06:45 PM   #15 
  - It certainly was  Time for change   Feb-27-06 07:09 PM   #20 
  - No more recs...  hootinholler   Feb-27-06 06:46 PM   #16 
  - Thanks for trying  Time for change   Feb-28-06 07:34 AM   #29 
  - There is a logical reason the FAA delayed in contacting NORAD  Jose Diablo   Feb-27-06 07:07 PM   #19 
  - Yes, that's a pretty good explanation  Time for change   Feb-27-06 07:12 PM   #21 
     - I keep going over this stuff.  atomic-fly   Feb-27-06 07:40 PM   #23 
        - Of course they have the MSM to help keep the lid on this  Time for change   Feb-27-06 08:03 PM   #24 
  - Loose Change II Giving Away Plain-Wrapper Copies At Cost!  corbett   Feb-27-06 10:18 PM   #27 
  - Thank you -- I just viewed the video that Sunnystar supplied yesterday  Time for change   Feb-28-06 07:30 AM   #28 
  - No they aren't.  greyl   Feb-28-06 08:07 AM   #30 
  - It's out now, just watch it on Google video for free nt  IronLionZion   Feb-28-06 01:22 PM   #44 
  - Or just watch it for free on Google Video  IronLionZion   Feb-28-06 01:21 PM   #43 
  - Your cavalier disregard for the facts  Kevin Fenton   Feb-28-06 09:07 AM   #32 
  - My response to your criticisms  Time for change   Feb-28-06 10:42 AM   #35 
  - Griffin's method is poor  Kevin Fenton   Feb-28-06 02:36 PM   #52 
  - I prefer the www.911review.com position  MrSammo1   Feb-28-06 03:02 PM   #53 
  - I'd like to get down to the heart of the matter  Time for change   Feb-28-06 03:20 PM   #54 
     - The difference between incompetence and MIHOP  Kevin Fenton   Feb-28-06 04:11 PM   #55 
     - I'd like to see if I understand your position correctly  Time for change   Feb-28-06 05:44 PM   #56 
     - It's like this...  Kevin Fenton   Feb-28-06 11:54 PM   #58 
        - Collapse of the WTC buildings and military response to Flight 77  Time for change   Mar-01-06 09:40 AM   #59 
        - Lots  Kevin Fenton   Mar-01-06 11:27 AM   #61 
           - I'm very skeptical about all this  Time for change   Mar-01-06 12:38 PM   #64 
              - Technical answer  Kevin Fenton   Mar-01-06 01:48 PM   #65 
                 - I see four reasons to favor the theory that the Bush administration had  Time for change   Mar-02-06 07:27 PM   #67 
                    - Unocal, etc.  Kevin Fenton   Mar-03-06 04:09 AM   #69 
                       - They couldn't have gotten near the NYSE  dailykoff   Mar-03-06 04:57 AM   #70 
                       - Map  Kevin Fenton   Mar-03-06 06:02 AM   #71 
                          - 1) Too far, 2) No  dailykoff   Mar-03-06 08:06 AM   #73 
                       - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-03-06 05:19 PM   #74 
                          - Afghanistan, Cheney  Kevin Fenton   Mar-04-06 01:51 AM   #77 
                             - Response  Time for change   Mar-04-06 07:39 AM   #78 
        - I like this argument.  Bushwick Bill   Mar-01-06 12:06 PM   #63 
           - Thank you  Kevin Fenton   Mar-01-06 02:23 PM   #66 
     - but that the no-757 argument at the Pentagon is an absolute donkey that do  MrSammo1   Feb-28-06 07:23 PM   #57 
     - This may clear it up some  The Straight Story   Aug-20-06 04:45 PM   #81 
  - About the differences in Manifests  The Straight Story   Aug-20-06 04:39 PM   #80 
  - ah yes, the infamous smoke and water jet covered hole  rman   Mar-03-06 06:29 AM   #72 
  - You know what makes a nice round hole in a building?  IronLionZion   Feb-28-06 01:04 PM   #39 
  - Griffin's book will go down in history as the best account of 9/11  rverne8   Aug-20-06 03:19 PM   #79 
 

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