| 11. Some important clarifications. Why I see this as a real problem. |
|
Edited on Sat Jul-26-08 10:11 PM by Diane_nyc
hack89 wrote: I have so far lived a full and productive life openly as an atheist with no problems what so ever. Good for you. Do you know anyone who lives in the Bible Belt? ... anti-Illuminism involves a tiny fraction of the internet. It also seems to involve a much larger fraction of people (though still a minority) in real life. Have you ever been to an anti-war rally, for example? Organized political movements, such as the anti-war movement, do play an important role in politics. Hence, to the extent that the religious right wing is infiltrating such movements, that's very bad news for the Democratic Party. While the leadership of the antiwar movement remains solidly progressive for the most part, the rank and file are another story, at least here in New York. I would imagine that the same is even more true elsewhere, though I could be wrong. The idea that it resonates with the general population is ridiculous. I didn't say that it resonates with the general population. However, from what I can tell so far, it apparently does resonate with lots of poor people, including lots of poor black people. In other words, the heart of the Democratic Party's base.
|
| -The "conspiracy theory debunker" community's surprising non-attention to bigotry against atheists |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-26-08 04:16 PM |
#0 |
-
A few "Illuminati" threads on JREF |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-26-08 06:42 PM |
#1 |
-
Old DU thread about the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-26-08 07:37 PM |
#2 |
 -
If there is one thing I can say for sure starroute is one of my top 10 posters at DU |
seemslikeadream |
Jul-26-08 08:27 PM |
#3 |
-
Yes, but, I would say, ONE of the best of the best |
Hope2006 |
Jul-26-08 09:30 PM |
#10 |
-
I'll put it on my To Do list. |
boloboffin |
Jul-26-08 08:52 PM |
#4 |
 -
Deleted sub-thread |
Name removed |
Jul-26-08 09:00 PM |
#6 |
-
Also, are we a "community"? n/t |
boloboffin |
Jul-26-08 08:58 PM |
#5 |
 -
Maybe "community" isn't quite the right word, but certainly a network at least. nt |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-26-08 09:17 PM |
#8 |
-
This post is saying quite a lot |
Hope2006 |
Jul-26-08 09:00 PM |
#7 |
-
As an atheist, I can honestly say |
hack89 |
Jul-26-08 09:30 PM |
#9 |
 -
Some important clarifications. Why I see this as a real problem. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-26-08 09:52 PM |
#11 |
  -
I think you have an overly active imagination |
hack89 |
Jul-26-08 09:57 PM |
#12 |
 -
Real world vs. Internet |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-26-08 10:04 PM |
#13 |
 -
Well here's another thing I know for sure |
seemslikeadream |
Jul-26-08 10:18 PM |
#14 |
 -
How familiar are you with the religious right wing and its history? |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-26-08 11:01 PM |
#16 |
-
P.S.: If you don't believe me, read what Chip Berlet says on some of these matters.... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-26-08 11:30 PM |
#17 |
-
Further P.S.: Some relevant evangelical Christian history |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 12:13 AM |
#18 |
-
More about Mike Warnke and the evangelical Christian subculture |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 01:44 AM |
#19 |
-
Correction: The "new" development: "Again" would be more accurate than "new" |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 05:28 AM |
#21 |
-
Yikes |
vincent_vega_lives |
Jul-26-08 10:41 PM |
#15 |
-
Let me guess, you're trying a satirical piece? -nt |
LARED |
Jul-27-08 04:39 AM |
#20 |
 -
No. Perhaps I need to spell out in more detail exactly what I see as the possible dangers? |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 05:48 AM |
#22 |
-
Here is my defense when the mob comes after me. |
boloboffin |
Jul-27-08 06:24 AM |
#23 |
 -
A more likely personal danger than a mob literally coming after you. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 11:27 AM |
#34 |
  -
A mob coming after my kids. |
boloboffin |
Jul-27-08 12:09 PM |
#40 |
 -
You've completely misunderstood my point. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 12:39 PM |
#48 |
 -
No, I have not. |
boloboffin |
Jul-27-08 12:46 PM |
#50 |
 -
Why is my point "ludicrous"? |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 01:00 PM |
#53 |
 -
Because it is. |
boloboffin |
Jul-27-08 06:10 PM |
#74 |
 -
Let's look at this point by point. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 07:56 PM |
#79 |
 -
I do not put the same degree of concern on anti-Illuminati rhetoric as you do. |
boloboffin |
Jul-27-08 10:41 PM |
#90 |
  -
You have a right to your own priorities .... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 02:11 AM |
#99 |
 -
:eyes: |
boloboffin |
Jul-28-08 08:05 AM |
#101 |
 -
Admittedly the O.Pl was not entirely clear.... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 09:38 AM |
#104 |
 -
I think it's point 4(b) that's the problem |
muriel_volestrangler |
Jul-28-08 12:36 PM |
#114 |
 -
More about the hardcore religious right wing version vs. the more generic populist version |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 01:46 PM |
#117 |
 -
What the hell is your basis for point #1? |
AZCat |
Jul-28-08 09:13 PM |
#147 |
 -
Which aspects of point #1? It contains many subpoints. nt |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 09:37 PM |
#149 |
 -
The new point #1. |
AZCat |
Jul-28-08 09:41 PM |
#150 |
 -
Point 1 reasons |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 11:15 PM |
#156 |
 -
Having followed the excellent demolition of 'Left Behind' by the slactivist blog |
muriel_volestrangler |
Jul-29-08 04:35 AM |
#162 |
 -
Tim LaHaye has written other books besides the "Left Behind" series ... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-29-08 08:38 AM |
#163 |
 -
and we all know.... |
wildbilln864 |
Jul-27-08 11:33 AM |
#36 |
-
We are all of us carrying around |
boloboffin |
Jul-27-08 12:07 PM |
#39 |
-
Perhaps we are familiar with all of that |
hack89 |
Jul-27-08 06:28 AM |
#24 |
 -
The religious right wing has already triggered major political realignments, and may do so again. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 09:02 AM |
#26 |
-
You are blaming the South's political shift on the religious right? |
AZCat |
Jul-27-08 10:20 AM |
#29 |
-
In the 1960's, and until around 1980, there were still many conservative Southern Democrats ... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 10:58 AM |
#31 |
-
It's out on loan... |
AZCat |
Jul-27-08 11:11 PM |
#93 |
-
Back in the 1980's, I remember hearing about "Reagan Democrats" .... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 11:29 PM |
#95 |
-
Having come of age during the Clinton years... |
AZCat |
Jul-28-08 12:09 AM |
#96 |
-
More about the exodus of conservative Southerners from the Democratic Party |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 02:19 AM |
#100 |
-
There's plenty of information out there already. |
AZCat |
Jul-28-08 09:22 AM |
#102 |
-
Thanks for the book recommendations, but .... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 09:57 AM |
#107 |
 -
P.S.: My reason for asking you about your personal impressions .... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 11:08 AM |
#110 |
-
I think that's part of the problem. |
AZCat |
Jul-28-08 08:36 PM |
#144 |
-
I don't think evangelical Christians IN GENERAL are threatening .... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 09:34 PM |
#148 |
-
Perhaps you need to reread a history of the United States. |
AZCat |
Jul-28-08 09:48 PM |
#151 |
-
You didn't answer my question |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-29-08 12:09 AM |
#157 |
-
I thought it was rhetorical. |
AZCat |
Jul-29-08 09:15 PM |
#169 |
-
In my experience, bigotry is worth counteracting. And it's caused by more than just scapegoating. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-29-08 11:09 PM |
#172 |
-
Should we worry about Bavarian Illuminate prejudice or just right wing gun nuts? |
boloboffin |
Jul-28-08 11:33 AM |
#111 |
-
We should be concerned about various ways in which the right wing GROWS, among other things. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 12:14 PM |
#113 |
 -
We are never going to stop debunking 9/11 CT here, Diane. |
boloboffin |
Jul-28-08 01:10 PM |
#116 |
-
Yet again, you guessed wrong. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 04:30 PM |
#120 |
-
Thanks for "illuminating" us on this subject n/t |
SDuderstadt |
Jul-28-08 04:37 PM |
#121 |
-
You're welcome. Do you have any thoughts or questions about it? nt |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 05:23 PM |
#124 |
-
My post was "tongue-in-cheek"... |
SDuderstadt |
Jul-28-08 05:52 PM |
#127 |
-
If you find it "boring," why did you post here at all, then? nt |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 06:15 PM |
#131 |
-
I don't think I need a reason to post a tongu-in-cheek response.... |
SDuderstadt |
Jul-28-08 06:18 PM |
#132 |
-
It's contentless thread hijacking. It's also rude. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 06:24 PM |
#133 |
-
Oh, for crying out loud, Diane..... |
SDuderstadt |
Jul-28-08 06:26 PM |
#134 |
-
Well, since you insist on posting here, could you please post something substantive? |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 06:44 PM |
#135 |
-
Yeah, it's boring... |
SDuderstadt |
Jul-28-08 06:49 PM |
#136 |
-
Please cease and desist. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 06:57 PM |
#138 |
-
I made one little play on words.... |
SDuderstadt |
Jul-28-08 07:00 PM |
#139 |
-
In the future, leave me alone except to make substantive, on-topic points. nt |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 07:11 PM |
#140 |
-
I'll comment in whatever way I want... |
SDuderstadt |
Jul-28-08 07:17 PM |
#141 |
-
The rules officially prohibit even "mild" incivility. They also prohibit thread hijacking. nt |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 07:25 PM |
#142 |
-
Then hit the "alert" button and let Lithos deal with it. |
AZCat |
Jul-28-08 08:19 PM |
#143 |
-
Whining? |
Hope2006 |
Jul-29-08 08:34 PM |
#165 |
-
Because I think Diane is misinterpreting the rules... |
AZCat |
Jul-29-08 09:00 PM |
#167 |
-
Very good to hear that your new job is a good fit! |
Hope2006 |
Jul-30-08 06:27 AM |
#174 |
-
And yours? |
AZCat |
Jul-30-08 10:20 PM |
#179 |
-
Yes, very well, AZ. |
Hope2006 |
Jul-31-08 05:24 AM |
#180 |
-
Oh, for crying out loud..... |
SDuderstadt |
Jul-29-08 09:03 PM |
#168 |
-
What bothered me, and why. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-29-08 09:21 PM |
#170 |
-
No one's trying to "annoy" you.... |
SDuderstadt |
Jul-29-08 09:53 PM |
#171 |
-
In 1995... |
AZCat |
Jul-28-08 11:14 PM |
#155 |
-
Agreed that there are plenty of nonreligious loonies, but ... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-29-08 12:19 AM |
#158 |
-
Perhaps because we have other priorities? |
vincent_vega_lives |
Jul-27-08 07:58 AM |
#25 |
 -
Do your priorities include ANY kind of serious political activism? nt |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 09:18 AM |
#27 |
-
Yes |
vincent_vega_lives |
Jul-27-08 02:53 PM |
#61 |
-
TOTAL misunderstanding here. Please re-read what I wrote. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 03:15 PM |
#63 |
-
As they say down South |
LARED |
Jul-27-08 11:59 AM |
#38 |
-
Could you please respond with substantive arguments, not contentless dismissals? |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 12:52 PM |
#51 |
-
Here you go. |
LARED |
Jul-27-08 04:17 PM |
#68 |
-
Thanks for your reply. Some clarifications .... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 06:59 PM |
#76 |
-
I agree, lets clarify |
LARED |
Jul-27-08 09:01 PM |
#81 |
-
Some further clarifications |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 12:29 AM |
#97 |
-
You are spending a lot of effort on this anti-Illuminism shtick |
LARED |
Jul-28-08 09:00 PM |
#146 |
-
As an athiest, I can honestly say: |
Finnfan |
Jul-27-08 10:03 AM |
#28 |
 -
Fnord! |
onager |
Jul-27-08 10:32 AM |
#30 |
 -
Yes, it's hard for many nonreligious people to take the religious right wing seriously. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 11:13 AM |
#32 |
-
I take Pat Robertson seriously on his own merits. |
Finnfan |
Jul-27-08 11:21 AM |
#33 |
-
Anti-illuminism could indeed play a significant role in a religious right wing resurgence ... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 11:33 AM |
#35 |
-
... |
Finnfan |
Jul-27-08 11:56 AM |
#37 |
-
Care to point out any specific flaws in my reasoning here? |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 12:12 PM |
#41 |
-
Found a few threads in the Religion/Theology forum |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 12:22 PM |
#42 |
 -
Where is the scientific method outside of myself? |
boloboffin |
Jul-27-08 12:23 PM |
#43 |
  -
Keep heckling, bolo |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 12:25 PM |
#44 |
 -
I'm serious. You say some atheists needs something like the SM outside themselves to worship... |
boloboffin |
Jul-27-08 12:29 PM |
#45 |
 -
Again with the projections |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 12:32 PM |
#47 |
 -
Please point out any "frenzied defense" of the scientific method |
boloboffin |
Jul-27-08 12:45 PM |
#49 |
 -
Hmmmm |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 01:00 PM |
#52 |
 -
If some "worship" the scientific method... |
varkam |
Jul-27-08 12:31 PM |
#46 |
  -
I am neutral on what one believes or worships. |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 01:14 PM |
#54 |
   -
You don't have to pick a side... |
varkam |
Jul-27-08 02:34 PM |
#56 |
  -
End of discussion n/t |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 02:40 PM |
#58 |
   -
Odd that... |
varkam |
Jul-27-08 02:45 PM |
#60 |
  -
Again... |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 03:18 PM |
#65 |
  -
And again... |
varkam |
Jul-27-08 03:37 PM |
#66 |
  -
I know what my intention was |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 03:41 PM |
#67 |
  -
Hmm... |
varkam |
Jul-27-08 04:37 PM |
#70 |
  -
Have you seen Diane_nyc's latest post about worship? |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 04:54 PM |
#73 |
  -
Here's the thing... |
varkam |
Jul-27-08 09:17 PM |
#85 |
  -
To each his own. |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 09:52 PM |
#89 |
  -
Funny, I have a stats background, too. |
varkam |
Jul-28-08 09:29 AM |
#103 |
  -
Meanings of words: subjective or objective? |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 10:16 AM |
#109 |
  -
"Worship" is another ambiguous and loaded term, apparently .... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 04:27 PM |
#69 |
  -
Worship, in modern parlance, |
varkam |
Jul-27-08 04:40 PM |
#71 |
  -
Thanks. A better word than "worship," then? |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 07:17 PM |
#77 |
  -
A small clarification |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 07:50 PM |
#78 |
   -
What you're describing... |
varkam |
Jul-27-08 09:15 PM |
#84 |
  -
Huh? |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 09:37 PM |
#87 |
  -
It was implied in this paragraph: |
varkam |
Jul-28-08 09:39 AM |
#105 |
  -
In all honesty... |
varkam |
Jul-27-08 09:13 PM |
#83 |
  -
To clarify my question .... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 11:11 PM |
#94 |
  -
It is my opinion... |
varkam |
Jul-28-08 09:40 AM |
#106 |
  -
I agree that feelings and reason are interconnected and "drive each other," but ... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 10:02 AM |
#108 |
  -
Well, there you go: sublimely inspiring. eom |
varkam |
Jul-28-08 02:16 PM |
#119 |
  -
Like I said, that's a start. Any more words for your feelings about science? nt |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 04:51 PM |
#122 |
  -
Good. Fun. Nice. |
varkam |
Jul-28-08 05:21 PM |
#123 |
  -
Thanks. Are "awe" and "sense of wonder" appropriate words too? nt |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 05:26 PM |
#125 |
  -
Also is it appropriate to say that you "respect," "honor," and "highly value" science? nt |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 05:50 PM |
#126 |
  -
Sure. But not that I worship it. eom |
varkam |
Jul-28-08 06:01 PM |
#128 |
  -
Exactly. Next time someone says you worship it, you can now suggest better words. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 06:04 PM |
#129 |
  -
That's really missing the point. |
varkam |
Jul-28-08 06:06 PM |
#130 |
  -
Why can't you suggest better words IN ADDITION TO explaining what's wrong with "worship"? |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 06:54 PM |
#137 |
  -
I know very well what point the other poster was trying to make... |
varkam |
Jul-28-08 10:17 PM |
#152 |
  -
Absolutely incorrect |
Hope2006 |
Jul-28-08 10:31 PM |
#153 |
  -
Weren't you done with this conversation five or six posts ago? |
varkam |
Jul-28-08 10:54 PM |
#154 |
  -
Why don't you ASK people what they mean, rather than assuming you know what they mean? |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-29-08 12:36 AM |
#159 |
  -
The meaning... |
varkam |
Jul-29-08 12:51 AM |
#160 |
  -
"worship" and "deify" |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-29-08 04:18 AM |
#161 |
  -
I say again... |
varkam |
Jul-29-08 01:29 PM |
#164 |
  -
People often say that two different things are "the same" ... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-29-08 09:00 PM |
#166 |
  -
Apparently you have not finished lecturing me. |
varkam |
Jul-30-08 01:21 AM |
#173 |
  -
Science and the multiple meanings of "religion" |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-30-08 10:40 AM |
#175 |
  -
. |
varkam |
Jul-30-08 02:30 PM |
#177 |
  -
Hope2006 did indeed offer an alternative interpretation. (And my response on other points.) |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-30-08 06:25 PM |
#178 |
  -
"The one other person, besides you, who took Hope2006's message the way you did..." |
greyl |
Jul-31-08 10:21 PM |
#181 |
  -
I was referring only those people who voiced a relevant opinion in this subthread, of course. |
Diane_nyc |
Aug-01-08 12:08 AM |
#182 |
  -
No kidding. |
greyl |
Aug-01-08 03:51 AM |
#183 |
  -
My statement was not intended as a "sweeping declarative statement." |
Diane_nyc |
Aug-01-08 08:48 AM |
#184 |
  -
I wouldn't waste time with the classic strategic semantic nit pick tactic |
HamdenRice |
Aug-02-08 07:12 AM |
#185 |
  -
Strategic nit picks, and why I usually DON'T ignore them. |
Diane_nyc |
Aug-02-08 12:46 PM |
#186 |
  -
Actually, he's been out of town. |
AZCat |
Aug-03-08 07:56 PM |
#189 |
  -
Yes, you would. Too late anyway. nt |
greyl |
Aug-05-08 11:04 PM |
#190 |
  -
I only know about the words you chose - not your intentions. |
greyl |
Aug-05-08 11:07 PM |
#191 |
  -
Dawkins on theologians... |
SidDithers |
Jul-27-08 06:20 PM |
#75 |
 -
Religion/theology and their impact on human social evolution |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-30-08 11:19 AM |
#176 |
 -
Polls showing bigotry against atheists |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 01:25 PM |
#55 |
-
Some specific polls |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 02:35 PM |
#57 |
-
Here's a good one: |
varkam |
Jul-27-08 02:43 PM |
#59 |
 -
Thanks. I would be very interested in your comments ... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 03:00 PM |
#62 |
-
thanks for digging this info up. |
Hope2006 |
Jul-27-08 03:15 PM |
#64 |
-
Umm..... |
jberryhill |
Jul-27-08 04:52 PM |
#72 |
 -
The extreme right wing and various political movements |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 09:05 PM |
#82 |
-
I think you are ignoring a unpleasant reality |
LARED |
Jul-27-08 09:21 PM |
#86 |
-
Yes, I've been to plenty... |
jberryhill |
Jul-27-08 09:48 PM |
#88 |
-
What's your personal take on the various kinds of right wingers ... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 12:50 AM |
#98 |
-
Locally? None |
jberryhill |
Jul-28-08 02:08 PM |
#118 |
-
Have you noticed any changes, over the years ... |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 08:39 PM |
#145 |
-
Exactly when did the Bavarian Illuminati |
LARED |
Jul-27-08 08:42 PM |
#80 |
 -
Tim LaHaye, leading anti-Illuminist, clearly singles out atheists as his main villains |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-27-08 11:03 PM |
#91 |
 -
Pat Robertson, another leading anti-Illuminist, explicitly singles out atheists too. |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 12:01 PM |
#112 |
 -
The John Birch Society: A major influence on Tim LaHaye and Pat Robertson |
Diane_nyc |
Jul-28-08 12:42 PM |
#115 |
-
I can honestly say... |
Lost-in-FL |
Jul-27-08 11:08 PM |
#92 |
-
I don't think the evangelicals are a big threat |
End Of The Road |
Aug-03-08 10:05 AM |
#187 |
-
Religious right wing != "the evangelicals" |
Diane_nyc |
Aug-03-08 11:24 AM |
#188 |