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Reply #11: Some important clarifications. Why I see this as a real problem. [View All]

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Diane_nyc Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Some important clarifications. Why I see this as a real problem.
Edited on Sat Jul-26-08 10:11 PM by Diane_nyc
hack89 wrote:

I have so far lived a full and productive life openly as an atheist with no problems what so ever.


Good for you. Do you know anyone who lives in the Bible Belt?

... anti-Illuminism involves a tiny fraction of the internet.


It also seems to involve a much larger fraction of people (though still a minority) in real life. Have you ever been to an anti-war rally, for example?

Organized political movements, such as the anti-war movement, do play an important role in politics. Hence, to the extent that the religious right wing is infiltrating such movements, that's very bad news for the Democratic Party. While the leadership of the antiwar movement remains solidly progressive for the most part, the rank and file are another story, at least here in New York. I would imagine that the same is even more true elsewhere, though I could be wrong.

The idea that it resonates with the general population is ridiculous.


I didn't say that it resonates with the general population. However, from what I can tell so far, it apparently does resonate with lots of poor people, including lots of poor black people. In other words, the heart of the Democratic Party's base.
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  -The "conspiracy theory debunker" community's surprising non-attention to bigotry against atheists Diane_nyc  Jul-26-08 04:16 PM   #0 
  - A few "Illuminati" threads on JREF  Diane_nyc   Jul-26-08 06:42 PM   #1 
  - Old DU thread about the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798  Diane_nyc   Jul-26-08 07:37 PM   #2 
  - If there is one thing I can say for sure starroute is one of my top 10 posters at DU  seemslikeadream   Jul-26-08 08:27 PM   #3 
     - Yes, but, I would say, ONE of the best of the best  Hope2006   Jul-26-08 09:30 PM   #10 
  - I'll put it on my To Do list.  boloboffin   Jul-26-08 08:52 PM   #4 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Jul-26-08 09:00 PM   #6 
  - Also, are we a "community"? n/t  boloboffin   Jul-26-08 08:58 PM   #5 
  - Maybe "community" isn't quite the right word, but certainly a network at least. nt  Diane_nyc   Jul-26-08 09:17 PM   #8 
  - This post is saying quite a lot  Hope2006   Jul-26-08 09:00 PM   #7 
  - As an atheist, I can honestly say  hack89   Jul-26-08 09:30 PM   #9 
  - Some important clarifications. Why I see this as a real problem.  Diane_nyc   Jul-26-08 09:52 PM   #11 
  - I think you have an overly active imagination  hack89   Jul-26-08 09:57 PM   #12 
     - Real world vs. Internet  Diane_nyc   Jul-26-08 10:04 PM   #13 
        - Well here's another thing I know for sure  seemslikeadream   Jul-26-08 10:18 PM   #14 
  - How familiar are you with the religious right wing and its history?  Diane_nyc   Jul-26-08 11:01 PM   #16 
     - P.S.: If you don't believe me, read what Chip Berlet says on some of these matters....  Diane_nyc   Jul-26-08 11:30 PM   #17 
     - Further P.S.: Some relevant evangelical Christian history  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 12:13 AM   #18 
        - More about Mike Warnke and the evangelical Christian subculture  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 01:44 AM   #19 
        - Correction: The "new" development: "Again" would be more accurate than "new"  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 05:28 AM   #21 
  - Yikes  vincent_vega_lives   Jul-26-08 10:41 PM   #15 
  - Let me guess, you're trying a satirical piece? -nt  LARED   Jul-27-08 04:39 AM   #20 
  - No. Perhaps I need to spell out in more detail exactly what I see as the possible dangers?  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 05:48 AM   #22 
     - Here is my defense when the mob comes after me.  boloboffin   Jul-27-08 06:24 AM   #23 
     - A more likely personal danger than a mob literally coming after you.  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 11:27 AM   #34 
     - A mob coming after my kids.  boloboffin   Jul-27-08 12:09 PM   #40 
        - You've completely misunderstood my point.  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 12:39 PM   #48 
           - No, I have not.  boloboffin   Jul-27-08 12:46 PM   #50 
              - Why is my point "ludicrous"?  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 01:00 PM   #53 
                 - Because it is.  boloboffin   Jul-27-08 06:10 PM   #74 
                    - Let's look at this point by point.  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 07:56 PM   #79 
                       - I do not put the same degree of concern on anti-Illuminati rhetoric as you do.  boloboffin   Jul-27-08 10:41 PM   #90 
                       - You have a right to your own priorities ....  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 02:11 AM   #99 
                          - :eyes:  boloboffin   Jul-28-08 08:05 AM   #101 
                             - Admittedly the O.Pl was not entirely clear....  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 09:38 AM   #104 
                       - I think it's point 4(b) that's the problem  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-28-08 12:36 PM   #114 
                          - More about the hardcore religious right wing version vs. the more generic populist version  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 01:46 PM   #117 
                             - What the hell is your basis for point #1?  AZCat   Jul-28-08 09:13 PM   #147 
                                - Which aspects of point #1? It contains many subpoints. nt  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 09:37 PM   #149 
                                   - The new point #1.  AZCat   Jul-28-08 09:41 PM   #150 
                                      - Point 1 reasons  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 11:15 PM   #156 
                                         - Having followed the excellent demolition of 'Left Behind' by the slactivist blog  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-29-08 04:35 AM   #162 
                                            - Tim LaHaye has written other books besides the "Left Behind" series ...  Diane_nyc   Jul-29-08 08:38 AM   #163 
     - and we all know....  wildbilln864   Jul-27-08 11:33 AM   #36 
        - We are all of us carrying around  boloboffin   Jul-27-08 12:07 PM   #39 
     - Perhaps we are familiar with all of that  hack89   Jul-27-08 06:28 AM   #24 
     - The religious right wing has already triggered major political realignments, and may do so again.  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 09:02 AM   #26 
        - You are blaming the South's political shift on the religious right?  AZCat   Jul-27-08 10:20 AM   #29 
           - In the 1960's, and until around 1980, there were still many conservative Southern Democrats ...  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 10:58 AM   #31 
              - It's out on loan...  AZCat   Jul-27-08 11:11 PM   #93 
                 - Back in the 1980's, I remember hearing about "Reagan Democrats" ....  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 11:29 PM   #95 
                    - Having come of age during the Clinton years...  AZCat   Jul-28-08 12:09 AM   #96 
                       - More about the exodus of conservative Southerners from the Democratic Party  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 02:19 AM   #100 
                          - There's plenty of information out there already.  AZCat   Jul-28-08 09:22 AM   #102 
                             - Thanks for the book recommendations, but ....  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 09:57 AM   #107 
                             - P.S.: My reason for asking you about your personal impressions ....  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 11:08 AM   #110 
                                - I think that's part of the problem.  AZCat   Jul-28-08 08:36 PM   #144 
                                   - I don't think evangelical Christians IN GENERAL are threatening ....  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 09:34 PM   #148 
                                      - Perhaps you need to reread a history of the United States.  AZCat   Jul-28-08 09:48 PM   #151 
                                         - You didn't answer my question  Diane_nyc   Jul-29-08 12:09 AM   #157 
                                            - I thought it was rhetorical.  AZCat   Jul-29-08 09:15 PM   #169 
                                               - In my experience, bigotry is worth counteracting. And it's caused by more than just scapegoating.  Diane_nyc   Jul-29-08 11:09 PM   #172 
                             - Should we worry about Bavarian Illuminate prejudice or just right wing gun nuts?  boloboffin   Jul-28-08 11:33 AM   #111 
                                - We should be concerned about various ways in which the right wing GROWS, among other things.  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 12:14 PM   #113 
                                - We are never going to stop debunking 9/11 CT here, Diane.  boloboffin   Jul-28-08 01:10 PM   #116 
                                   - Yet again, you guessed wrong.  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 04:30 PM   #120 
                                      - Thanks for "illuminating" us on this subject n/t  SDuderstadt   Jul-28-08 04:37 PM   #121 
                                         - You're welcome. Do you have any thoughts or questions about it? nt  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 05:23 PM   #124 
                                            - My post was "tongue-in-cheek"...  SDuderstadt   Jul-28-08 05:52 PM   #127 
                                               - If you find it "boring," why did you post here at all, then? nt  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 06:15 PM   #131 
                                               - I don't think I need a reason to post a tongu-in-cheek response....  SDuderstadt   Jul-28-08 06:18 PM   #132 
                                               - It's contentless thread hijacking. It's also rude.  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 06:24 PM   #133 
                                               - Oh, for crying out loud, Diane.....  SDuderstadt   Jul-28-08 06:26 PM   #134 
                                               - Well, since you insist on posting here, could you please post something substantive?  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 06:44 PM   #135 
                                               - Yeah, it's boring...  SDuderstadt   Jul-28-08 06:49 PM   #136 
                                               - Please cease and desist.  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 06:57 PM   #138 
                                               - I made one little play on words....  SDuderstadt   Jul-28-08 07:00 PM   #139 
                                               - In the future, leave me alone except to make substantive, on-topic points. nt  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 07:11 PM   #140 
                                               - I'll comment in whatever way I want...  SDuderstadt   Jul-28-08 07:17 PM   #141 
                                               - The rules officially prohibit even "mild" incivility. They also prohibit thread hijacking. nt  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 07:25 PM   #142 
                                               - Then hit the "alert" button and let Lithos deal with it.  AZCat   Jul-28-08 08:19 PM   #143 
                                               - Whining?  Hope2006   Jul-29-08 08:34 PM   #165 
                                               - Because I think Diane is misinterpreting the rules...  AZCat   Jul-29-08 09:00 PM   #167 
                                               - Very good to hear that your new job is a good fit!  Hope2006   Jul-30-08 06:27 AM   #174 
                                               - And yours?  AZCat   Jul-30-08 10:20 PM   #179 
                                               - Yes, very well, AZ.  Hope2006   Jul-31-08 05:24 AM   #180 
                                               - Oh, for crying out loud.....  SDuderstadt   Jul-29-08 09:03 PM   #168 
                                               - What bothered me, and why.  Diane_nyc   Jul-29-08 09:21 PM   #170 
                                               - No one's trying to "annoy" you....  SDuderstadt   Jul-29-08 09:53 PM   #171 
                                - In 1995...  AZCat   Jul-28-08 11:14 PM   #155 
                                   - Agreed that there are plenty of nonreligious loonies, but ...  Diane_nyc   Jul-29-08 12:19 AM   #158 
     - Perhaps because we have other priorities?  vincent_vega_lives   Jul-27-08 07:58 AM   #25 
     - Do your priorities include ANY kind of serious political activism? nt  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 09:18 AM   #27 
        - Yes  vincent_vega_lives   Jul-27-08 02:53 PM   #61 
           - TOTAL misunderstanding here. Please re-read what I wrote.  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 03:15 PM   #63 
     - As they say down South  LARED   Jul-27-08 11:59 AM   #38 
        - Could you please respond with substantive arguments, not contentless dismissals?  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 12:52 PM   #51 
           - Here you go.  LARED   Jul-27-08 04:17 PM   #68 
              - Thanks for your reply. Some clarifications ....  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 06:59 PM   #76 
                 - I agree, lets clarify  LARED   Jul-27-08 09:01 PM   #81 
                    - Some further clarifications  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 12:29 AM   #97 
                       - You are spending a lot of effort on this anti-Illuminism shtick  LARED   Jul-28-08 09:00 PM   #146 
  - As an athiest, I can honestly say:  Finnfan   Jul-27-08 10:03 AM   #28 
  - Fnord!  onager   Jul-27-08 10:32 AM   #30 
  - Yes, it's hard for many nonreligious people to take the religious right wing seriously.  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 11:13 AM   #32 
     - I take Pat Robertson seriously on his own merits.  Finnfan   Jul-27-08 11:21 AM   #33 
        - Anti-illuminism could indeed play a significant role in a religious right wing resurgence ...  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 11:33 AM   #35 
           - ...  Finnfan   Jul-27-08 11:56 AM   #37 
              - Care to point out any specific flaws in my reasoning here?  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 12:12 PM   #41 
  - Found a few threads in the Religion/Theology forum  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 12:22 PM   #42 
  - Where is the scientific method outside of myself?  boloboffin   Jul-27-08 12:23 PM   #43 
  - Keep heckling, bolo  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 12:25 PM   #44 
     - I'm serious. You say some atheists needs something like the SM outside themselves to worship...  boloboffin   Jul-27-08 12:29 PM   #45 
        - Again with the projections  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 12:32 PM   #47 
           - Please point out any "frenzied defense" of the scientific method  boloboffin   Jul-27-08 12:45 PM   #49 
              - Hmmmm  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 01:00 PM   #52 
  - If some "worship" the scientific method...  varkam   Jul-27-08 12:31 PM   #46 
  - I am neutral on what one believes or worships.  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 01:14 PM   #54 
  - You don't have to pick a side...  varkam   Jul-27-08 02:34 PM   #56 
     - End of discussion n/t  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 02:40 PM   #58 
     - Odd that...  varkam   Jul-27-08 02:45 PM   #60 
        - Again...  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 03:18 PM   #65 
           - And again...  varkam   Jul-27-08 03:37 PM   #66 
              - I know what my intention was  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 03:41 PM   #67 
                 - Hmm...  varkam   Jul-27-08 04:37 PM   #70 
                    - Have you seen Diane_nyc's latest post about worship?  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 04:54 PM   #73 
                       - Here's the thing...  varkam   Jul-27-08 09:17 PM   #85 
                          - To each his own.  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 09:52 PM   #89 
                             - Funny, I have a stats background, too.  varkam   Jul-28-08 09:29 AM   #103 
                                - Meanings of words: subjective or objective?  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 10:16 AM   #109 
     - "Worship" is another ambiguous and loaded term, apparently ....  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 04:27 PM   #69 
        - Worship, in modern parlance,  varkam   Jul-27-08 04:40 PM   #71 
           - Thanks. A better word than "worship," then?  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 07:17 PM   #77 
              - A small clarification  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 07:50 PM   #78 
              - What you're describing...  varkam   Jul-27-08 09:15 PM   #84 
                 - Huh?  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 09:37 PM   #87 
                    - It was implied in this paragraph:  varkam   Jul-28-08 09:39 AM   #105 
              - In all honesty...  varkam   Jul-27-08 09:13 PM   #83 
                 - To clarify my question ....  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 11:11 PM   #94 
                    - It is my opinion...  varkam   Jul-28-08 09:40 AM   #106 
                       - I agree that feelings and reason are interconnected and "drive each other," but ...  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 10:02 AM   #108 
                          - Well, there you go: sublimely inspiring. eom  varkam   Jul-28-08 02:16 PM   #119 
                             - Like I said, that's a start. Any more words for your feelings about science? nt  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 04:51 PM   #122 
                                - Good. Fun. Nice.  varkam   Jul-28-08 05:21 PM   #123 
                                   - Thanks. Are "awe" and "sense of wonder" appropriate words too? nt  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 05:26 PM   #125 
                                   - Also is it appropriate to say that you "respect," "honor," and "highly value" science? nt  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 05:50 PM   #126 
                                      - Sure. But not that I worship it. eom  varkam   Jul-28-08 06:01 PM   #128 
                                         - Exactly. Next time someone says you worship it, you can now suggest better words.  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 06:04 PM   #129 
                                            - That's really missing the point.  varkam   Jul-28-08 06:06 PM   #130 
                                               - Why can't you suggest better words IN ADDITION TO explaining what's wrong with "worship"?  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 06:54 PM   #137 
                                               - I know very well what point the other poster was trying to make...  varkam   Jul-28-08 10:17 PM   #152 
                                               - Absolutely incorrect  Hope2006   Jul-28-08 10:31 PM   #153 
                                               - Weren't you done with this conversation five or six posts ago?  varkam   Jul-28-08 10:54 PM   #154 
                                               - Why don't you ASK people what they mean, rather than assuming you know what they mean?  Diane_nyc   Jul-29-08 12:36 AM   #159 
                                               - The meaning...  varkam   Jul-29-08 12:51 AM   #160 
                                               - "worship" and "deify"  Diane_nyc   Jul-29-08 04:18 AM   #161 
                                               - I say again...  varkam   Jul-29-08 01:29 PM   #164 
                                               - People often say that two different things are "the same" ...  Diane_nyc   Jul-29-08 09:00 PM   #166 
                                               - Apparently you have not finished lecturing me.  varkam   Jul-30-08 01:21 AM   #173 
                                               - Science and the multiple meanings of "religion"  Diane_nyc   Jul-30-08 10:40 AM   #175 
                                               - .  varkam   Jul-30-08 02:30 PM   #177 
                                               - Hope2006 did indeed offer an alternative interpretation. (And my response on other points.)  Diane_nyc   Jul-30-08 06:25 PM   #178 
                                               - "The one other person, besides you, who took Hope2006's message the way you did..."  greyl   Jul-31-08 10:21 PM   #181 
                                               - I was referring only those people who voiced a relevant opinion in this subthread, of course.  Diane_nyc   Aug-01-08 12:08 AM   #182 
                                               - No kidding.  greyl   Aug-01-08 03:51 AM   #183 
                                               - My statement was not intended as a "sweeping declarative statement."  Diane_nyc   Aug-01-08 08:48 AM   #184 
                                               - I wouldn't waste time with the classic strategic semantic nit pick tactic  HamdenRice   Aug-02-08 07:12 AM   #185 
                                               - Strategic nit picks, and why I usually DON'T ignore them.  Diane_nyc   Aug-02-08 12:46 PM   #186 
                                               - Actually, he's been out of town.  AZCat   Aug-03-08 07:56 PM   #189 
                                               - Yes, you would. Too late anyway. nt  greyl   Aug-05-08 11:04 PM   #190 
                                               - I only know about the words you chose - not your intentions.  greyl   Aug-05-08 11:07 PM   #191 
  - Dawkins on theologians...  SidDithers   Jul-27-08 06:20 PM   #75 
     - Religion/theology and their impact on human social evolution  Diane_nyc   Jul-30-08 11:19 AM   #176 
  - Polls showing bigotry against atheists  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 01:25 PM   #55 
     - Some specific polls  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 02:35 PM   #57 
        - Here's a good one:  varkam   Jul-27-08 02:43 PM   #59 
        - Thanks. I would be very interested in your comments ...  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 03:00 PM   #62 
        - thanks for digging this info up.  Hope2006   Jul-27-08 03:15 PM   #64 
  - Umm.....  jberryhill   Jul-27-08 04:52 PM   #72 
  - The extreme right wing and various political movements  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 09:05 PM   #82 
     - I think you are ignoring a unpleasant reality  LARED   Jul-27-08 09:21 PM   #86 
     - Yes, I've been to plenty...  jberryhill   Jul-27-08 09:48 PM   #88 
        - What's your personal take on the various kinds of right wingers ...  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 12:50 AM   #98 
           - Locally? None  jberryhill   Jul-28-08 02:08 PM   #118 
              - Have you noticed any changes, over the years ...  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 08:39 PM   #145 
  - Exactly when did the Bavarian Illuminati  LARED   Jul-27-08 08:42 PM   #80 
  - Tim LaHaye, leading anti-Illuminist, clearly singles out atheists as his main villains  Diane_nyc   Jul-27-08 11:03 PM   #91 
  - Pat Robertson, another leading anti-Illuminist, explicitly singles out atheists too.  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 12:01 PM   #112 
  - The John Birch Society: A major influence on Tim LaHaye and Pat Robertson  Diane_nyc   Jul-28-08 12:42 PM   #115 
  - I can honestly say...  Lost-in-FL   Jul-27-08 11:08 PM   #92 
     - I don't think the evangelicals are a big threat  End Of The Road   Aug-03-08 10:05 AM   #187 
        - Religious right wing != "the evangelicals"  Diane_nyc   Aug-03-08 11:24 AM   #188 
 

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