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Reply #53: Jesus Fucking Christ, Jack... [View All]

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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Jesus Fucking Christ, Jack...
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 01:13 PM by SDuderstadt
Let me recount the actual conversation for you so you quit conflating what I actually said into something I never said. Can you follow a thread?

K-robjoe said:

"Powder burns on Kennedy's clothing reveal that all three of his wounds were from a gun fired from 0 to 1-1/2 inches away. And yet, all witnesses claim that Sirhan's gun could not possibly have done this, for not one person places Sirhan's gun that close, and according to the general consensus Sirhan's gun never got closer than three feet away.

Three bullets were found in Robert F. Kennedy, and a fourth grazed his suit jacket. The upward angle of every shot was so steep as to be much closer to straight up than horizontal (80 degrees). And yet, all witnesses claim Sirhan's gun was completely horizontal for his first two shots, after which his gun hand was repeatedly slammed against a stem table (and now so far away from Kennedy that any errant shots of such upwardness would have been twenty feet high before reaching Kennedy, as opposed to entering Kennedy's backside as they did)."

To which I replied:

So, let me make sure I get this straight...someone other than Sirhan Sirhan shot RFK from 0-1 1/2 inches away and no one saw it? You expect us to believe this crap?

To which K-robjoe replied:

Its all very confusing

I would need to read more about it. But according to this, witnesses saw a gun just behind RFK, and two witnesses say it was fired.

"Seconds later when the shooting broke out, Cesar hit the floor and admitted drawing his weapon. Although two witnesses, one a newsman, said they saw the security guard fire, Gene says that he did not do so. He successfully passed a polygraph test organized by Dan Moldea in 1994. An LAPD polygraph was set up for him in 1968 but was cancelled for unknown reasons by authorities the day before it was to take place.

However, as Moldea also points out, Cesar was standing directly behind Kennedy when Sirhan began firing and, according to his own statements, was in a position to shoot Kennedy at a point blank range.

A total of five witnesses saw him draw the gun, and Cesar gave contradictory statements to police about exactly when he drew the weapon. (He also had been on guard duty in the pantry an hour earlier when Sirhan reportedly slipped into the area.)

The trajectory of the shots from the back, which went through Kennedy's coat as well as into his head, were perfectly aligned with where Cesar said he was on the floor. If he did not fire, then he should have been right next to whoever did shoot and witnessed the activity. He was never asked and never volunteered that information during the polygraph.


Gene Cesar somehow lost his clip-on necktie during the confusion. In the famous photo of a dying RFK sprawled on the pantry floor, a stray clip-on tie lies just a foot from Kennedy's clutched right hand." ...

To which I replied:

I don't think your "source" is particularly believable

Have you read what his own website says about him?

"Pat Shannan has been investigating and writing about the Oklahoma City bombing case since the day it happened. As investigative reporter for Chuck Harder and "The People's Radio Network," he traveled to the scene numerous times to interview witnesses, survivors, and other investigators. A later result of this work became "Murder in the Heartland," a two-hour video documentary on the subject, which he has referred to as "the biggest cover-up since the Kennedy and King assassinations of the 1960s."

In the 1960s, Shannan traveled the world as a night club entertainer. In the 1970s, he built an international marketing organization producing a six-figure income, which eventually was defrauded away by the federal government. In the 1980s, he became educated on the subject of the fraud in the in the Federal Reserve system and its co-conspirator, the IRS, when the latter agency began to unlawfully steal his assets from him.

In 1985, he presented his weekly Executive Intelligence Report on the award-winning Morton Downey, Jr. radio show in Cleveland, Ohio. He wrote his first book in 1987, The Banksters, which exposes the truths of monetary realism vs. deficit spending of via legal tender "credit money."

In 1991, Pat successfully defended himself before a jury in federal court against a trumped-up charge of "Conspiracy" - that catch-all charge the government often uses to dispose of people who diligently exercise their First Amendment rights. He is of the fervent belief that had he used a court-appointed attorney, he would have been convicted and incarcerated in a federal camp as one more political prisoner in America. Instead, his jury said, "Not Guilty."

Shannan published his second book in 1992 - I RODE WITH TUPPER - the true-life suspense thriller story of the persecution, prosecution, and
attempted murder of his friend and fellow writer, Tupper Saussy. It is also a handbook for the historical truths surrounding the founding of this once-great nation - a "must read" for any confused American, as it contains so much of the information which the government prefers the people not know.

In May and June of 1996, Pat Shannan spent a total of 18 days on two separate trips covering the Montana Freemen story. He was the only journalist allowed jailhouse interviews by the Freemen during and after the siege at the Clark Ranch. His book, THE MONTANA FREEMEN - The Untold Story of Government Suppression and the News Media Cover-up, explains the Freemen's stand and how the federal judiciary pulled out all stops to prevent the exposure of the banker's sham. It is a compilation of the lawful facts which CNN and Associated Press refused to report.

Currently, Pat Shannan is the Journalist-at-Large for Media Bypass magazine. He resides in the deep South and spends his time investigating and exposing suppressed information - through radio reporting, researching, and writing. He hosts the Media Bypass Radio Hour weekday mornings on the Truth Radio Network and "Pat Shannan's Investigative Reports" weekday evenings on the Heritage Network. His latest book, his first novel - ONE IN A MILLION - was released in January of 1999 and is available through Barnes & Noble or your local bookstore.

This guy sounds like a veritable nutcase. Maybe you should read about the logical fallacy called "false certainty". Simply because someone wrote something, hardly makes it true. What reason do you have to take anything this guy says seriously?"

Now, what's confusing (perhaps intentionally, in true CT form) is Shannan's account (which, if you'd check, was all I was ever taking exception to), which led me, along with reading his bio, to state that I did not find him particularly credible.

Shannan states:

Although two witnesses, one a newsman, said they saw the security guard fire, Gene says that he did not do so

Why doesn't Shannan tell us the names of the witnesses? Don't you think that's important to the credibility of the account?

A total of five witnesses saw him draw the gun, and Cesar gave contradictory statements to police about exactly when he drew the weapon.

Why doesn't Shannan give us the names of these five witnesses?

The trajectory of the shots from the back, which went through Kennedy's coat as well as into his head, were perfectly aligned with where Cesar said he was on the floor.

Hmmmm, so Cesar was on the floor. That doesn't sound like he's 0 to 1 1/2 inches away from RFK to me, Jack. Does it to you? I go back to my original question. Someone other than Sirhan shot RFK from a mere 1 to 1 1/2 inches away and NONE of the 75 or so people there saw it? Answer that and you might have something. Otherwise, it's nearly 40 years after RFK's assassination and you CT's are still acting like Raymond Babbitt in "Rainman", convinced that "Who's on 1st?" is a riddle.

See, Jack? Shannan isn't citing Noguchi directly and leaving it at that. He is adding his take on things in a very unconvincing manner. I am saying I don't find Shannan a particularly credible source and if you do, I cannot help you. Maybe you ought to butt out of the discussion between the other poster and myself, okay?

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  -Experts: Sirhan Sirhan Did Not Kill RFK seemslikeadream  Mar-26-08 05:26 PM   #0 
  - Glad you posted this.  Hope2006   Mar-26-08 05:33 PM   #1 
  - Sirhan and the RFK Assassination  seemslikeadream   Mar-26-08 09:53 PM   #3 
     - Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In: a Robert Maheu Production?  MinM   Apr-15-08 11:03 PM   #62 
        - They don't just assassinate; they make sure that avenues to remedies are closed . . .  defendandprotect   Apr-17-08 08:41 PM   #70 
        - That's exactly right...  MinM   Apr-19-08 03:47 PM   #73 
           - Ex-Howard Hughes spokesman, CIA operative dies  MinM   Aug-06-08 12:11 PM   #81 
        - John Meier says the Howard Hughes organization was involved in the RFK assassination  MinM   Jun-05-08 02:01 PM   #79 
           - Have you seen these vids?  seemslikeadream   Jun-05-08 02:08 PM   #80 
           - Playboy: The Puppet and the Puppetmasters  MinM   Jan-29-09 09:06 PM   #86 
              - CIA took money from any RW sources -- including KKK and Nazis ....  defendandprotect   Dec-03-11 01:09 AM   #109 
  - Did you know that gullible isn't in the dictionary?????  boloboffin   Mar-26-08 05:58 PM   #2 
  - Gullible is believing the same government claimed Saddam had WMDs on stand-by.  Octafish   Apr-05-08 01:26 PM   #8 
  - Sadly, "irrelevant" is in the dictionary.  boloboffin   Apr-05-08 01:35 PM   #9 
  - Is that not amusing?  seemslikeadream   Apr-05-08 02:02 PM   #10 
  - Never let facts get in the way of a good story!  PhD   Nov-04-09 10:42 PM   #98 
  - And we'd have got away with it if it weren't for  Laurier   Apr-05-08 02:12 AM   #4 
  - ..  seemslikeadream   Apr-05-08 09:51 AM   #5 
  - Hm...  k-robjoe   Apr-05-08 11:06 AM   #6 
  - Debunkers: Where's the sarcastic know-nothing response on Uecker?  JackRiddler   Apr-05-08 03:16 PM   #11 
  - Whatever happened to Dan Moldea?  Octafish   Apr-05-08 06:36 PM   #12 
  - I haven't seen him on my TV  seemslikeadream   Apr-05-08 08:08 PM   #13 
  - Moldea wrote 'Dark Victory: Reagan, MCA & the Mob'  Octafish   Apr-06-08 12:55 AM   #15 
     - Apparently making that 'NFL-mafia connection' got Moldea blackballed  MinM   Apr-07-08 06:55 PM   #27 
        - Dan Moldea and the DC Madam  MinM   May-12-08 07:41 AM   #75 
           - Looks like Dan Moldea is there is create lies and attest to them -- !!  defendandprotect   Dec-03-11 01:21 AM   #112 
  - Moldea was still being pushed up to a few years ago -- always thought him a player for RW side ....  defendandprotect   Dec-03-11 01:20 AM   #111 
  - Good question! n/t  Hope2006   Apr-06-08 12:50 AM   #14 
  - I've been waiting for the sarcastic know-nothing attack on debunkers.  boloboffin   Apr-06-08 03:16 PM   #17 
     - So it's a, "just another confused eyewitness."  JackRiddler   Apr-06-08 04:20 PM   #18 
        - Counter evidence - the recordings only have Sirhan's eight shots.  boloboffin   Apr-06-08 04:42 PM   #19 
  - point blank range  sabbat hunter   Apr-06-08 12:44 PM   #16 
     - You don't link...  JackRiddler   Apr-06-08 05:00 PM   #20 
     - here is a link  sabbat hunter   Apr-06-08 05:24 PM   #21 
        - Powder burns  k-robjoe   Apr-06-08 05:47 PM   #22 
        - So, let me make sure I get this straight...  SDuderstadt   Apr-06-08 07:50 PM   #24 
           - Its all very confusing  k-robjoe   Apr-07-08 04:07 AM   #25 
           - I don't think your "source" is particularly believable  SDuderstadt   Apr-07-08 06:27 PM   #26 
              - "false certainty"  k-robjoe   Apr-08-08 04:49 AM   #28 
              - Kill the messenger!  JackRiddler   Apr-08-08 07:26 AM   #29 
                 - Coming from someone down on Moldea, that is a really big LOL! n/t  boloboffin   Apr-08-08 07:53 AM   #30 
                 - Zero still requires addition of $2 metro card for subway ride.  JackRiddler   Apr-08-08 07:56 AM   #31 
                    - Yeah.  boloboffin   Apr-08-08 07:59 AM   #32 
                 - You're assuming what Shanna says is true  SDuderstadt   Apr-08-08 11:05 AM   #33 
                    - No, I'm taking Noguchi's word for it.  JackRiddler   Apr-08-08 11:40 AM   #34 
                       - But since Uecker could not have known the position of Kennedy throughout the event  boloboffin   Apr-08-08 11:48 AM   #35 
                       - Uecker couldn't know, but obviously you do - thanks to Randivision (tm).  JackRiddler   Apr-08-08 11:53 AM   #36 
                          - Uecker was in front of Kennedy, looking at the gun and dealing with Sirhan.  boloboffin   Apr-08-08 01:13 PM   #38 
                          - Field of vision  k-robjoe   Apr-08-08 04:43 PM   #47 
                             - All very true about his field of vision...  JackRiddler   Jan-30-09 04:33 PM   #88 
                          - Bugliosi  k-robjoe   Apr-08-08 01:30 PM   #39 
                             - ... was an early champion of reopening the RFK case against Sirhan Sirhan  MinM   Apr-08-08 01:46 PM   #40 
                             - ...has probably changed his mind between then and now. n/t  boloboffin   Apr-08-08 01:50 PM   #41 
                                - Perhaps ...  MinM   Apr-08-08 02:56 PM   #42 
                                   - Bwa!  boloboffin   Apr-08-08 03:14 PM   #43 
                                   - You are correct...  MinM   Apr-08-08 03:47 PM   #44 
                                   - And it's irrelevant.  JackRiddler   Apr-08-08 03:47 PM   #45 
                                   - Spence, Bugliosi and 40 years later...  MinM   Jun-04-08 08:00 AM   #78 
                             - There was distance and there was the fact gun was in FRONT of RFK ....  defendandprotect   Dec-03-11 01:28 AM   #114 
                       - Show me where Shannan cites a specific source and links to it  SDuderstadt   Apr-09-08 03:36 PM   #49 
                          - Shannan has nothing to do with it. It's Noguchi, the coroner.  JackRiddler   Apr-10-08 11:42 AM   #50 
                             - You need to pay attention, Jack  SDuderstadt   Apr-10-08 12:20 PM   #51 
                                - No, you jumped into a discussion of the bullets and powder burns...  JackRiddler   Apr-10-08 12:31 PM   #52 
                                   - Jesus Fucking Christ, Jack...  SDuderstadt   Apr-10-08 01:01 PM   #53 
                                      - "so Cesar was on the floor"  k-robjoe   Apr-10-08 01:31 PM   #54 
                                      - Thane Eugene Cesar -- a name we need to keep out there for all to see ... !!!  defendandprotect   Dec-03-11 01:31 AM   #115 
                                      - This is an open board, members may respond to any post.  JackRiddler   Apr-10-08 01:55 PM   #55 
                                         - I see neither you nor K-robjoe can answer the question I posed  SDuderstadt   Apr-10-08 03:35 PM   #57 
                                            - Many people saw Cesar with his gun drawn.  JackRiddler   Apr-11-08 09:24 PM   #58 
                                            - If by "learning about the case" you mean buying what some...  SDuderstadt   Apr-11-08 09:59 PM   #59 
                                            - yawn...  JackRiddler   Apr-11-08 11:50 PM   #60 
                                            - No, Jack...  SDuderstadt   Apr-12-08 01:23 AM   #61 
                                            - general agenda.  seemslikeadream   Apr-15-08 11:37 PM   #63 
                                            - Donald Schulman, of KNXT Television  MinM   Apr-16-08 02:37 PM   #64 
                                            - Thanks! n/t  k-robjoe   Apr-16-08 05:27 PM   #65 
                                            - I'd heard that Cesar was the actual assassin. He's alive and well,  ailsagirl   Apr-22-08 02:04 PM   #74 
                                            - Evidently they don't need to eliminate him .... !! But, some say they saw at least  defendandprotect   Dec-03-11 01:36 AM   #116 
           - Who said no one saw it? There were people who saw it ---  defendandprotect   Apr-16-08 09:51 PM   #66 
           - Then name them, D&P and...  SDuderstadt   Apr-17-08 10:21 PM   #72 
           - Here, let me settle this  ResetButton   Aug-06-08 06:12 PM   #84 
              - Aww. Do you need some juice? n/t  boloboffin   Aug-06-08 06:14 PM   #85 
        - Which doesn't answer the question...  JackRiddler   Apr-06-08 06:20 PM   #23 
     - You're in denial that gun was still in FRONT of RFK while wounds are in back ...  defendandprotect   Dec-03-11 01:24 AM   #113 
  - MLK - William F. Pepper & Judge Joe Brown on NPR - 4.4.2008  seemslikeadream   Apr-05-08 11:47 AM   #7 
  - Thank you ... saved to my favs ---  defendandprotect   Apr-17-08 08:43 PM   #71 
  - Thank you for the links . . . saving them for another day!  defendandprotect   Mar-30-09 12:33 AM   #91 
  - CIA Operative/LAPD Detective Hank Hernadez v Sandy Serrano  MinM   Apr-08-08 12:59 PM   #37 
  - Scott Enyart  MinM   Apr-08-08 04:12 PM   #46 
  - The RFK 'Zapruder Film'  MinM   Apr-10-08 02:05 PM   #56 
  - Ah, yes, this is a tape that has to be heard . . . I've heard it a few times and it's  defendandprotect   Apr-16-08 09:56 PM   #67 
     - You are welcome.  MinM   Apr-17-08 12:50 PM   #68 
        - Thank you -- saved and listening to one now . . . A&E/History Channel  defendandprotect   Apr-17-08 07:55 PM   #69 
  - RFK | USAID | SUS  MinM   Apr-09-08 07:02 AM   #48 
  - "RFK" (documentary; 2008)  MinM   May-20-08 11:06 AM   #76 
  - Thank you MinM  seemslikeadream   May-20-08 09:51 PM   #77 
  - The Assassination of Robert Kennedy (1992)  MinM   Nov-29-11 08:41 PM   #106 
  - Uh, huh. They decided to release this "blockbuster news" from a CASINO?  Redstone   Aug-06-08 04:37 PM   #82 
  - Oh stop it  seemslikeadream   Aug-06-08 04:53 PM   #83 
  - Have you listened to the interview with Shane O Sullivan, author "Who Killed Bobby?"  MrMickeysMom   Jan-29-09 09:16 PM   #87 
  - 41 Years Since RFK Assassination  MinM   Mar-20-09 01:32 PM   #89 
  - The myth of the lone gunman . . . the misfit -- !!!!  defendandprotect   Mar-25-09 02:29 AM   #90 
  - k i c k  defendandprotect   Mar-30-09 12:35 AM   #92 
  - RFK Assassin Sirhan Sirhan Moved to New Prison  MinM   Nov-03-09 10:52 AM   #93 
  - Jack Ruby tried to tell the truth -- tried to get a new trial -- as he got closer to it . ..  defendandprotect   Nov-03-09 10:06 PM   #95 
  - In about 30,40 years we might have the power on the left to bring truth forward . . .I hope!!!  defendandprotect   Nov-03-09 09:57 PM   #94 
  - TRUTH TO POWER!  snooper2   Nov-04-09 03:00 PM   #96 
     - Yes --  defendandprotect   Nov-04-09 03:42 PM   #97 
  - THIS is more sleight of hand which should wake up DU'ers re 9/11 . . .as well -- !!!  defendandprotect   Nov-05-09 02:24 PM   #99 
  - The return of Zombie slad!...nt  SidDithers   Nov-05-09 02:26 PM   #100 
  - Ha!  MrMickeysMom   Nov-05-09 10:33 PM   #101 
     - Nah, I just miss the tears of laughter that she and her posts used to induce...  SidDithers   Nov-06-09 10:09 AM   #102 
        - Jesus, that was a hoot!  SDuderstadt   Nov-06-09 10:52 AM   #103 
        - Geez, Sid...  MrMickeysMom   Nov-06-09 06:57 PM   #104 
  - Sirhan Sirhan Hassan Cho.  thepeopleunited   Nov-07-09 04:14 PM   #105 
  - Zombie slad rises again...  SidDithers   Dec-02-11 12:07 PM   #107 
  - Where's this thread been? Good to see it back -- a lot of info on this thread -- !!  defendandprotect   Dec-03-11 12:23 AM   #108 
  - I remember SLAD...  jberryhill   Dec-03-11 01:15 AM   #110 

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