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Reply #102: "The relationship between validity and truth depends upon one's definitions for each" [View All]

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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #96
102. "The relationship between validity and truth depends upon one's definitions for each"
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 06:06 PM by SDuderstadt
Wtf? We're talking about Logic, mhatrw. Your initial answer is made even more puzzling by your second sentence which, I suspect, you've cut and pasted from some Logic website and is essentially correct. Validity in Logic refers to structure and truthfulness is referred to as soundness. So, an argument, much as you describe, can be valid, in that it follows proper for, yet still not be sound (or true) because one or more of the premises are flawed. For example (and I am going to use a purposefully imflammatory example on purpose):

All "truthers" are stupid.
So-and-so is a "truther".
Therefore, So-and-so is stupid.

Valid, but not sound. Valid in that it follows the form:

All A is B
C is A
Therefore, C is B.

The argument is unsound (untrue) because the first premise is not true. All "truthers" are not just seems that way.

Are far as your "question", it's because its antecedent is the negated consequent of its converse. Duh. I wouldn't waste a lot of time "testing" me on contraposition, mhatrw. I'm pretty sure I know far more about logic than you do, especially since I had to ask you my question numerous times over a long period of time before you could answer.
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  -Mineta: Cheneys were in PEOC bunker BEFORE 911 attack Texas Explorer  Jul-01-07 01:19 PM   #0 
  - nothing suprises me anymore  greenbriar   Jul-01-07 01:20 PM   #1 
  - Both Cheney and Rumsfeld lied to the commission, and the members  Boo Boo   Jul-01-07 01:21 PM   #2 
  - Lions At the Gate: Our Leaders on 9/11 American Everyman  MinM   Jun-06-08 11:30 AM   #20 
  - So, this means that the "official record" is a lie. Gosh. That's not inspiring, is it? NT  MADem   Jul-01-07 01:22 PM   #3 
  - Just like where were the Air Marshals on the planes that hit n/t  Wiccan Warrior   Jul-01-07 01:22 PM   #4 
  - there are not  sabbat hunter   Jun-08-08 07:00 AM   #44 
  - And the evidence is starting to come forth.....This administration  MadMaddie   Jul-01-07 01:23 PM   #5 
  - Gee, what POSSIBLE reason would Cheney have to LIE about such a thing, hmmmm? Recommended.  dicksteele   Jul-01-07 01:24 PM   #6 
  - And we're letting this treasonous bastard get away with it all.  bushwentawol   Jul-01-07 01:24 PM   #7 
  - Any explanation from Cheney  ayeshahaqqiqa   Jul-01-07 01:24 PM   #8 
  - you gotta find him first!  burythehatchet   Jul-01-07 01:44 PM   #13 
  - "So?"  Clark2008   Jun-11-08 02:06 PM   #142 
  - war criminal chainy would not answer coz he can't recall... n/t  Amonester   Nov-15-09 02:44 AM   #196 
  - mis-spoke? we'll never know depths of cheneys' evil.....  spanone   Jul-01-07 01:24 PM   #9 
  - Addendum:  Texas Explorer   Jul-01-07 01:37 PM   #10 
  - Off to the ghetto for this thread, I fear  RufusTFirefly   Jul-01-07 01:38 PM   #11 
  - I agree...  Texas Explorer   Jul-01-07 01:42 PM   #12 
  - we are. So, this is what the dungeon looks like? n/t  Texas Explorer   Jul-01-07 02:01 PM   #16 
     - sit down, take your shoes off, stay awhile and be careful of the  seemslikeadream   Jul-01-07 02:46 PM   #18 
        - Is that Karl Rove? NT.  ryan_cats   Dec-02-11 11:00 AM   #198 
  - Bit a K&R will increase it's fleeting visibility.  Warren Stupidity   Jul-01-07 01:49 PM   #14 
  - Meanwhile, Dub was still hanging out at an elementary school. Curious, huh. n/t  sicksicksick_N_tired   Jul-01-07 01:50 PM   #15 
  - You searched but didn't find it?  boloboffin   Jul-01-07 02:10 PM   #17 
  - yes bolo knows more than anyone who was there on the scene...  wildbilln864   Jun-09-08 11:11 AM   #48 
  - Actually, that's quite silly.  boloboffin   Jun-09-08 11:20 AM   #49 
     - everyone else?  wildbilln864   Jun-09-08 11:48 AM   #50 
        - You think wrong.  boloboffin   Jun-09-08 01:24 PM   #52 
           - Whose facts supplied to whom? n/t  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 04:31 PM   #69 
           - there are no facts!  wildbilln864   Dec-01-11 09:23 PM   #197 
  - Where is this "evidence"? Who supplied this "evidence" to whom? n/t  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 04:29 PM   #68 
  - Thanks for posting this  Hope2006   Jul-02-07 01:50 AM   #19 
  - Mineta is a thorn in Cheney's official story  Bassman66   Jun-06-08 11:50 AM   #21 
  - Or he's merely mistaken...  SDuderstadt   Jun-06-08 11:54 AM   #22 
     - It needs clearing up, that's for sure.  Bassman66   Jun-06-08 11:55 AM   #23 
     - But it HAS been cleared up...  SDuderstadt   Jun-06-08 12:07 PM   #25 
        - Has Mineta said he was mistaken?  Bassman66   Jun-06-08 04:12 PM   #27 
        - I'm saying that not everything needs investigating...  SDuderstadt   Jun-06-08 07:02 PM   #30 
           - Exactly. If contradictions exists, don't investigate them!  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 04:36 PM   #72 
              - Another stupid either-or argument from you, mhatrw....  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 04:50 PM   #76 
                 - Please demonstrate what your Logic 000.5 course has to do with  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 05:08 PM   #81 
                    - Because you discount Logic as a means of adopting a position...  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 05:11 PM   #84 
                       - I don't discount logic. I discount your contention that your infantile  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 05:15 PM   #88 
                          - "infantile understanding of Logic"  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 05:29 PM   #92 
                             - I truly envy your bliss.  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 05:50 PM   #96 
                                - "The relationship between validity and truth depends upon one's definitions for each"  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 06:04 PM   #102 
                                   - Everything in my post was 100% true. Surely you must realize that  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 06:36 PM   #107 
                                      - Another stupid strawman argument from you, mhatrw  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 06:43 PM   #111 
                                         - Yes, Mineta said he could have possibly been wrong about the time.  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 10:27 PM   #120 
                                            - Quit playing dumb, mhatrw...  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 10:30 PM   #121 
                                               - You sent me what? Where?  mhatrw   Jun-11-08 12:23 AM   #126 
        - What the hell has been debunked? Mineta just confirmed the discrepancy again. n/t  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 04:34 PM   #71 
     - Do you remember what you were doing on 9/11?  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 04:32 PM   #70 
        - They're also more confusing and often happen at a rapid pace...  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 04:54 PM   #77 
           - You didn't answer the question. Are we or are we not more apt to  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 05:17 PM   #89 
              - I would think more people can remember details of their wedding day than  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 05:41 PM   #95 
              - We all remember what we were doing on 9/11 -- just like almost every US citizen old enough  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 05:57 PM   #99 
                 - Bullshit, mhatrw....  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 06:12 PM   #105 
                    - Do you remember what YOU were doing on 9/11? Do you?  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 06:41 PM   #109 
                       - Funny you should mention that...  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 06:51 PM   #113 
                          - Certainly human memory has quirks and is imperfect.  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 10:31 PM   #122 
                             - Because there's more to remember.....  SDuderstadt   Jun-11-08 12:22 AM   #125 
                             - Please cite the experts who back your counterintuitive claim that people misremember  mhatrw   Jun-11-08 12:26 AM   #127 
                                - "memorable" is kind of a broad term...  SDuderstadt   Jun-11-08 05:53 PM   #143 
                                   - Nice complete non-response.  mhatrw   Jun-12-08 03:26 AM   #144 
                                      - Yeah, that cognitive neuroscience is sure funny....  SDuderstadt   Jun-12-08 10:27 AM   #150 
                                         - Where are the experts who back up your moronic contention that memorable events  mhatrw   Jun-12-08 04:36 PM   #156 
                             - Most people react adversely to stress,  hack89   Jun-13-08 09:24 PM   #162 
                                - Show us the studies that demonstrate that people misremember  mhatrw   Jun-14-08 01:52 PM   #169 
                                   - Where are your studies?  hack89   Jun-15-08 05:58 AM   #172 
                                      - Do you remember what you were doing on 9/11?  mhatrw   Jun-16-08 01:31 PM   #180 
                                         - FBI FOIA Request  SDuderstadt   Jun-17-08 07:08 PM   #183 
              - That isn't a yes or no question.  Realityhack   Jun-10-08 06:54 PM   #114 
                 - Exactly...  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 06:57 PM   #116 
                 - Well.  Realityhack   Jun-10-08 07:00 PM   #117 
                 - Of course it isn't. The issue I had was SD's insistence that catastrophes  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 10:35 PM   #123 
                    - Well... that wasn't my claim but...  Realityhack   Jun-11-08 08:26 AM   #136 
                       - Which brings us back to the point. Whose conflicting testimony causes you to conclude that  mhatrw   Jun-11-08 09:58 AM   #137 
                       - Jesus, mhatrw....  SDuderstadt   Jun-11-08 10:10 AM   #139 
                          - Yes. Which eyewitnesses provided this testimony to the news media?  mhatrw   Jun-12-08 03:27 AM   #145 
                             - Again, your case seems to rely only on the eyewitness testimony of...  SDuderstadt   Jun-12-08 10:31 AM   #152 
                                - Produce the primary evidence that trumps Mineta's on the record  mhatrw   Jun-12-08 04:38 PM   #157 
                                   - Mineta's own testemony?  Realityhack   Jun-14-08 12:23 PM   #164 
                                   - Based on whose testimony was Mineta mistaken?  mhatrw   Jun-14-08 01:44 PM   #166 
                                   - Lets give a little example  Realityhack   Jun-14-08 01:05 PM   #165 
                                      - Based on whose conflicting testimony was Mineta mistaken about Cheney being  mhatrw   Jun-14-08 01:46 PM   #167 
                                         - Sorry but you dodged mine.  Realityhack   Jun-14-08 02:35 PM   #170 
                                            - Yes, I admit that the ground hold in New York almost certainly didn't happen until  mhatrw   Jun-14-08 04:47 PM   #171 
                                               - Have you read the link? n/t  Realityhack   Jun-15-08 07:03 AM   #173 
                                                  - Yes, I read the link. And I don't see anyone's direct on the record testimony  mhatrw   Jun-16-08 01:33 PM   #181 
                                                  - I see problems with his timeline. n/t  Realityhack   Jun-18-08 02:27 PM   #186 
                       - Exactly n/t  SDuderstadt   Jun-11-08 10:05 AM   #138 
  - Your headline is misleading (at best)  LARED   Jun-06-08 12:04 PM   #24 
  - Mineta has also confirmed that what he heard was a shootdown order...  SDuderstadt   Jun-06-08 12:08 PM   #26 
     - No, he confirmed what he thought it was.  Bassman66   Jun-06-08 04:13 PM   #28 
        - And what did he base that on?  SDuderstadt   Jun-06-08 06:51 PM   #29 
           - I'm seriously suggesting there is a difference in stories  Bassman66   Jun-07-08 02:01 AM   #31 
              - Or you could simply read how the other available evidence shows...  SDuderstadt   Jun-07-08 02:23 AM   #32 
                 - Since you know him, can you ask him if he was mistaken?  elias7   Jun-07-08 08:24 AM   #33 
                    - Now you're claiming Cheney threatened his life?  SDuderstadt   Jun-07-08 09:00 AM   #35 
                    - No, I don't think Cheney would play hardball politics  elias7   Jun-09-08 12:50 PM   #51 
                       - He didn't say that.  boloboffin   Jun-09-08 01:26 PM   #53 
                          - Profound disconnect?  elias7   Jun-09-08 01:56 PM   #54 
                             - The timeline is "constructed" from the evidence. Mineta's timing doesn't match the evidence.  boloboffin   Jun-09-08 03:08 PM   #55 
                                - who is spreading bullshit? which posts?  elias7   Jun-09-08 05:21 PM   #56 
                                - Here's a post spreading bullshit.....  Ghost in the Machine   Jun-09-08 05:50 PM   #57 
                                - Point to evidence we're...  SDuderstadt   Jun-09-08 07:41 PM   #58 
                                   - ummm, Mineta?  elias7   Jun-10-08 10:35 AM   #60 
                                      - I'm not ignoring Mineta.  boloboffin   Jun-10-08 10:41 AM   #61 
                                      - No, Mineta's story doesn't match everything else but the timing.  eomer   Jun-10-08 10:47 AM   #62 
                                      - Oh, you're right, his call out numbers are different  boloboffin   Jun-10-08 11:49 AM   #63 
                                         - No, it's not just the call out numbers.  eomer   Jun-10-08 01:11 PM   #65 
                                         - Monte wasn't giving him the numbers. I don't know where you got that.  boloboffin   Jun-10-08 01:26 PM   #66 
                                         - I got that from Mineta.  eomer   Jun-10-08 04:03 PM   #67 
                                         - Who is "everyone else"? Where is their testimony about the "actual" chronology? n/t  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 04:40 PM   #74 
                                         - Your post suggests you haven't even bothered to figure this out for yourself....  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 04:57 PM   #78 
                                         - Mineta's testimony to the 9/11 commission is on public record. Now he has confirmed this testimony.  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 05:10 PM   #82 
                                         - It's the same report you're already looking at....  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 05:12 PM   #85 
                                         - Produce the actual firsthand testimony that contradicts Mineta's account then.  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 05:19 PM   #90 
                                         - Read the footnotes of the 9/11 Commission Report, mhatrw...  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 05:30 PM   #93 
                                         - That is my very point.  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 05:52 PM   #98 
                                         - I don't think the SS is "unknown", mhatrw....  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 06:08 PM   #103 
                                         - Please produce the SS's public testimony about the events of 9/11  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 06:40 PM   #108 
                                         - Do you realize why the SS might not release every detail....  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 06:55 PM   #115 
                                         - For someone who stresses logic, you surely love the dodge.  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 10:42 PM   #124 
                                         - You don't know what the fuck I'm basing it on...  SDuderstadt   Jun-11-08 12:27 AM   #128 
                                         - You are correct. I have no idea what evidence you are basing your opinions on.  mhatrw   Jun-11-08 12:31 AM   #130 
                                         - This is the last time I'm fricking posting this, mhatrw....  SDuderstadt   Jun-11-08 12:42 AM   #132 
                                         - I hope to God it is the last time ANYONE posts such ludicrous propaganda.  mhatrw   Jun-11-08 12:54 AM   #134 
                                         - For the record....  SDuderstadt   Jun-11-08 10:16 AM   #140 
                                         - It's telling that you are afraid to advance your own argument.  mhatrw   Jun-12-08 03:30 AM   #146 
                                      - His story does match everything else, just not how the commission report lays it down  elias7   Jun-12-08 07:23 AM   #148 
                                      - We're hardly "ignoring" Mineta...  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 11:50 AM   #64 
                                         - see post 148  elias7   Jun-12-08 07:38 AM   #149 
                                            - We're not discounting his testimony at all...  SDuderstadt   Jun-12-08 10:34 AM   #153 
                                               - Not sure what you mean by that.  eomer   Jun-12-08 11:34 AM   #154 
                                               - I have little else to add to eomer's response to you (post 148)  elias7   Jun-12-08 12:00 PM   #155 
                                - Where is this "evidence"? What does it consist of? Who provided it to whom? n/t  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 04:38 PM   #73 
                                   - See my earlier reply...  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 04:59 PM   #79 
                                      - As usual, you have nothing. n/t  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 05:11 PM   #83 
                                         - No, as usual, YOU have nothing n/t  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 05:13 PM   #86 
                                            - My evidence is Mineta's publicly released testimony to the 9/11 Commission and  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 05:26 PM   #91 
                                               - Jesus, Dude....  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 05:38 PM   #94 
                                                  - I have a witness who produced public testimony.  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 06:00 PM   #100 
                                                  - Your witness has publicly admitted he could be wrong N/T  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 06:09 PM   #104 
                                                  - You have no witnesses. You have no contradictory testimony.  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 06:43 PM   #110 
                                                  - Bullshit, mhatrw.....  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 07:05 PM   #118 
                                                  - I'm not drawing any conclusions. I'm simply saying that Mineta's public testimony  mhatrw   Jun-11-08 12:29 AM   #129 
                    - Mineta confirmed that it was flight 77  k-robjoe   Jun-07-08 09:28 AM   #36 
                    - Mineta is mistaken. n/t  boloboffin   Jun-07-08 09:33 AM   #37 
                       - Yes, because some silly internet poster knows more than the man who was there, right?  Ghost in the Machine   Jun-08-08 06:40 PM   #45 
                    - Notice also  k-robjoe   Jun-07-08 09:43 AM   #38 
  - Dick Cheney was not evacuated from his office until 9:35 a.m.  boloboffin   Jun-07-08 08:43 AM   #34 
  - We know from Jane garvey's written statement to the Nine Eleven Commission  truedelphi   Jun-09-08 10:23 PM   #59 
  - Exactly as I thought. Your "evidence" is Zelikow's interpretation of  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 04:45 PM   #75 
     - It's pretty silly to think all the commission members....  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 05:03 PM   #80 
        - So the people picked specifically BECAUSE they would fall in line  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 05:13 PM   #87 
           - You're claiming Gorelick was picked because she would fall in line?  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 05:50 PM   #97 
              - It's amazing how you manage to find time to discuss anything except the point..  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 06:02 PM   #101 
                 - For the last fricking time, mhatrw....  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 06:13 PM   #106 
                    - So you admit you have nothing. I'm glad that is finally settled. n/t  mhatrw   Jun-10-08 06:43 PM   #112 
                       - It's hardly settled, except in your mind...  SDuderstadt   Jun-10-08 07:17 PM   #119 
                          - What bullshit. So you post a propaganda link to make your "point."  mhatrw   Jun-11-08 12:35 AM   #131 
                             - Propaganda link????  SDuderstadt   Jun-11-08 12:46 AM   #133 
                                - It's your fucking "evidence", not mine.  mhatrw   Jun-11-08 12:56 AM   #135 
                                   - Do you think things are only proved by eyewitness testimony???  SDuderstadt   Jun-11-08 10:22 AM   #141 
                                      - Where is the better evidence than Mineta's on the record eyewitness testimony?  mhatrw   Jun-12-08 03:32 AM   #147 
                                         - I have repeatedly....  SDuderstadt   Jun-12-08 10:29 AM   #151 
                                            - You have repeatly refused to produce any testimony that contradicts  mhatrw   Jun-12-08 04:41 PM   #158 
  - I'm sure we all agree  Bassman66   Jun-07-08 12:08 PM   #39 
  - Would that make you happy?  Sweet Pea   Jun-07-08 06:25 PM   #40 
     - So you're happy with the White House obstructed version?  Ghost in the Machine   Jun-07-08 09:07 PM   #41 
     - Actually, I am surprised  Hope2006   Jun-07-08 09:50 PM   #42 
     - If the same information came out  Bassman66   Jun-08-08 02:21 AM   #43 
  - Omigod! I have irrefutable evidence of a ...  SDuderstadt   Jun-08-08 10:26 PM   #46 
  - I thought you had some big deposition to get caught up on and couldn't debate  Ghost in the Machine   Jun-09-08 12:06 AM   #47 
  - Cheney and Mineta are both on record stating they were in PEOC before Pentagon hit  elias7   Jun-13-08 03:06 PM   #159 
  - They had the SS logs....  SDuderstadt   Jun-13-08 04:16 PM   #160 
     - Mineta arrived before the crash, according the log  elias7   Jun-13-08 04:27 PM   #161 
     - SDude, invoker of logical fallacies, where did you go?  elias7   Jun-14-08 08:09 AM   #163 
     - What did the SS logs say? Who created them when? Whose testimony were they based on?  mhatrw   Jun-14-08 01:49 PM   #168 
  - FOIA  k-robjoe   Jun-16-08 09:17 AM   #174 
  - It's evidence of a poorly worded FOIA request.  boloboffin   Jun-16-08 09:27 AM   #175 
     - The reply indicates  Bassman66   Jun-16-08 09:42 AM   #176 
     - Nope. You're reading into it.  boloboffin   Jun-16-08 09:46 AM   #177 
        - The reply is no "no documents"  Bassman66   Jun-16-08 09:59 AM   #178 
        - Yeah, that's the ticket!  mhatrw   Jun-16-08 01:42 PM   #182 
     - File no. 20080330  k-robjoe   Jun-16-08 12:46 PM   #179 
        - The file number is of the requests being made, like a case number.  boloboffin   Jun-18-08 04:33 AM   #184 
           - Appeal  k-robjoe   Jun-18-08 09:09 AM   #185 
  - In 04 Interview, Cheney Denied Role in C.I.A. Leak  MinM   Oct-31-09 06:02 PM   #187 
  - Thank you for keeping this clear and in front of us . . . Cheney = TREASON . . .  defendandprotect   Nov-04-09 09:54 PM   #188 
  - too late.these facts have been placed under a cone of silence.  Algorem   Nov-05-09 12:34 AM   #189 
  - Mineta needs to say everything he knows so there's no motive for the High Perps to kill him eom  aldo   Nov-12-09 04:52 PM   #190 
     - "Truther Logic"....  SDuderstadt   Nov-12-09 06:01 PM   #191 
        - It's Like The Lincoln Assassination....  jberryhill   Nov-12-09 06:30 PM   #192 
           - Or in the JFK assassination when someone tangential would die...  SDuderstadt   Nov-12-09 07:37 PM   #193 
              - It worked for King Tut  jberryhill   Nov-12-09 09:30 PM   #194 
                 - I think in Logic...  SDuderstadt   Nov-12-09 10:39 PM   #195 

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