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Can a jet fuel/hydrocarbon fire collapse a steel structure? An experiment. [View All]

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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Wed Oct-05-05 06:31 PM
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Can a jet fuel/hydrocarbon fire collapse a steel structure? An experiment.
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Edited on Wed Oct-05-05 07:29 PM by spooked911
I set up the following experiment using steel rabbit fencing as the steel structure supporting a heavy cement block.

Note, this fencing is easily bendable, has no significant rigidity, and was not reinforced in any way. The fencing was bent into an outer square and an inner rectangle (the core):


Then I damaged the "columns" by cutting them with wire cutters:



Just inside where the gash was made in the outer wall, I placed a cup of kerosene (jet fuel), and there was newspaper around the bottom on the structure.

Then I put a heavy cement block on top, weighing about 15 pounds. I don't think the wire structure would hold more than three of these blocks, so the "safety factor" was not particularly high.


Then I tipped over the cup and lit the kerosene:



Then fire burned for about twenty minutes, and toward the end, I put my foot on the structure to see if it would extra weight. It still did:


The structure held up fine after the fire died:


After the fire was hot, the "columns" were not hot at all:



In a second experiment, I used the same wire fence and block set up, but increased the amount of "airplane damage", added in newspaper all around the inside of the structure, and soaked everything thoroughly with kerosene. In this expt, the fire was more intense and lasted significantly longer, but... the structure held up just fine. (Sorry no pictures of this one).

What I conclude is that a fairly flimsy steel structure does not distort and bend and collapse very easily from a simple hydrocarbon fire. And thus, it is not clear why the much stronger steel columns in the WTC towers weakened so much from fires that the towers underwent global collapse.

If kerosene/jet fuel/hydrocarbon fires can indeed cause steel structures to collapse, it should be quite simple to show this in an experiment-- right?






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  Can a jet fuel/hydrocarbon fire collapse a steel structure? An experiment. spooked911  Oct-05-05 06:31 PM   #0 
   keep adding  MrSammo1   Oct-05-05 06:38 PM   #1 
   Can a non-jet fuel/hydrocarbon fire collapse a steel structure? Reality.  Make7   Oct-05-05 07:41 PM   #2 
   The WTC was not a "lightweight steel bar joist building"  spooked911   Oct-05-05 11:41 PM   #4 
   Was it a chicken wire building? ( n/t )  Make7   Oct-06-05 03:42 AM   #10 
   Of course not-- all the more reason why it would resist collapse.  spooked911   Oct-06-05 03:42 PM   #24 
      So your original objection, to my posted real world examples,...  Make7   Oct-07-05 04:40 AM   #33 
         the construction method was different.  petgoat   Oct-07-05 02:37 PM   #39 
            Spooked's experiments DID test the strength of vertical columns in a fire.  MercutioATC   Oct-07-05 11:18 PM   #48 
            LOL! ( n/t )  Make7   Oct-07-05 11:40 PM   #53 
            Let me see if I understand this.  Make7   Oct-07-05 11:51 PM   #55 
               Do you think heat will affect vertical and horizontal steel  spooked911   Oct-08-05 10:27 AM   #70 
                  If it is the same type of steel and is raised to the same temperature...  Make7   Oct-08-05 11:21 AM   #73 
   McCormick Place officially opened in 1960. The fire was in 1967.  Make7   Oct-06-05 11:59 AM   #16 
      I can't find the link right now, but someone on this board had a post  spooked911   Oct-06-05 03:38 PM   #22 
         L'Enfant Plaza  Kevin Fenton   Oct-06-05 03:51 PM   #25 
         Do they have exhibits in convention centers still under construction?  Make7   Oct-07-05 04:10 AM   #32 
   Steel  MrSammo1   Oct-07-05 04:48 AM   #34 
   Can a non-jet fuel/hydrocarbon fire collapse  MrSammo1   Oct-07-05 04:55 AM   #35 
   Well, I"M convinced...  MercutioATC   Oct-05-05 11:33 PM   #3 
   I assume you can show us how the fires caused the collapse then?  spooked911   Oct-05-05 11:41 PM   #5 
      No, obviously you can't either...  MercutioATC   Oct-05-05 11:46 PM   #6 
         "an aluminum can and some kerosene"  petgoat   Oct-06-05 01:51 AM   #7 
            You don't think a hi-rise building is a little more complex than some  MercutioATC   Oct-06-05 02:21 AM   #8 
            You don't think a hi-rise building is a little more complex  petgoat   Oct-06-05 03:40 AM   #9 
               Then go ahead and calculate it...  MercutioATC   Oct-06-05 04:17 AM   #11 
               I'm asking YOU or LARED or someone who supports the official story  spooked911   Oct-06-05 02:45 PM   #18 
               I'm not accusing you of manipulating the results.  MercutioATC   Oct-06-05 11:22 PM   #29 
               Had spooked's cage failed, we could have criticized his study  petgoat   Jul-05-06 05:36 PM   #110 
               Actually, it is.  Totallybushed   Jul-05-06 04:15 PM   #107 
               There's no point in calculating it. The model is too crude  petgoat   Jul-09-06 11:51 AM   #259 
               Thank you, exactly my point.  spooked911   Oct-06-05 02:41 PM   #17 
            The behavior of steel under load in a fire  LARED   Oct-06-05 06:03 AM   #12 
               I have checked out what NIST "thinks"  petgoat   Oct-07-05 01:06 AM   #30 
                  Exactly!!!  spooked911   Oct-08-05 10:28 AM   #71 
   I'm just surprised  WoodrowFan   Oct-06-05 07:13 AM   #13 
   If you want to improve your model  LARED   Oct-06-05 07:42 AM   #14 
   How about YOU try it, since you believe the official story?  spooked911   Oct-06-05 02:54 PM   #19 
   Because  LARED   Oct-06-05 03:26 PM   #21 
      where is their model of the collapse, please?  spooked911   Oct-06-05 03:40 PM   #23 
         Good Lord man, it's here  LARED   Oct-06-05 09:35 PM   #27 
            No, I don't want that. I want their model of how fire  spooked911   Oct-06-05 10:56 PM   #28 
               Where is the detailed NIST model of the collapse?  spooked911   Oct-08-05 10:34 AM   #72 
                  Actually, the NIST is still trying to duplicate what happened on 9/11  Sinti   Jun-26-06 11:09 AM   #99 
                     According to Kevin Ryan,  petgoat   Jul-06-06 12:50 PM   #121 
                        NIST's fudged models  Carefulplease   Jul-07-06 07:07 AM   #145 
                           Every single lightweight web truss could have failed  dailykoff   Jul-07-06 12:34 PM   #154 
                           Are you sure about these beams?  Carefulplease   Jul-08-06 12:09 AM   #181 
                              Yes.  dailykoff   Jul-08-06 03:07 AM   #187 
                              Link, please. n/t  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 04:38 AM   #216 
                                 File an FOIA request.  dailykoff   Jul-08-06 04:45 AM   #217 
                                    So, you can point out these beams even though you have never seen any  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 05:04 AM   #219 
                                       Yes.  dailykoff   Jul-08-06 05:10 AM   #220 
                                          And your evidence that they existed is?????  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 05:30 AM   #221 
                                             Find a framing plan and I'll explain it to you.  dailykoff   Jul-08-06 05:46 AM   #222 
                                             Can't answer the question, I see.  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 05:50 AM   #223 
                                             I believe I've answered it four times. Good night. (n/t)  dailykoff   Jul-08-06 05:53 AM   #224 
                                             No, you haven't even answered it once.  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 05:54 AM   #225 
                              It seems apparent that she can't.  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 06:41 AM   #226 
                                 I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make it think. (n/t)  dailykoff   Jul-08-06 10:46 AM   #227 
                                    Lol. Talk about non-sequiturs....  Jazz2006   Jul-09-06 03:53 AM   #239 
                                    I prefer the Dorothy Parker version  mirandapriestly   Jul-09-06 03:54 AM   #240 
                                    Oh, and you think that's clever, I'll bet.  Jazz2006   Jul-09-06 04:01 AM   #242 
                                       Why is it when I post to you it's a "weird fixation"  mirandapriestly   Jul-09-06 04:07 AM   #244 
                                          I've never made any "personal attacks" on you  Jazz2006   Jul-09-06 04:13 AM   #245 
                                          So what was on all those deleted posts?  mirandapriestly   Jul-10-06 11:09 AM   #282 
                                          And  Jazz2006   Jul-09-06 04:50 AM   #246 
                                             Stop stalking me  mirandapriestly   Jul-09-06 05:17 AM   #247 
                                             Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-09-06 05:31 AM   #248 
                                             delete dupe.  Jazz2006   Jul-09-06 05:43 AM   #250 
                                             Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-09-06 10:10 AM   #255 
                                             Sing....sing a song...  boloboffin   Jul-09-06 12:19 PM   #261 
                                             Buddy, Rewind and replay "Bush supporters" "neocons" "paid shills" ...  Jazz2006   Jul-09-06 01:15 PM   #268 
                                             Funny , I didn't see him say ANY of those words.  mirandapriestly   Jul-10-06 11:05 AM   #281 
                                    Do no truss conspiracy sites about trusses.  Carefulplease   Jul-09-06 05:36 AM   #249 
                                       Trusses and beams.  Carefulplease   Jul-09-06 07:14 AM   #251 
                                       You should try reading the NIST report .  dailykoff   Jul-12-06 11:37 PM   #292 
                                          Any evidence for these joist girders?  Carefulplease   Jul-13-06 05:10 AM   #295 
                                             I said you should read it, not believe it.  dailykoff   Jul-13-06 06:16 AM   #296 
                                                Where did you hear about these mystery girders?  Carefulplease   Jul-13-06 05:38 PM   #302 
                                                What tipped me off  dailykoff   Jul-13-06 07:07 PM   #303 
                           Welcome to DU! Please provide links to support your assertions.  petgoat   Jul-07-06 02:04 PM   #160 
                              Here is some support...  Carefulplease   Jul-07-06 11:42 PM   #180 
   No, a realistic similulation would have the fencing at about 0.7" high,  pox americana   Oct-07-05 03:12 PM   #40 
      Actually, no.  MercutioATC   Oct-07-05 10:23 PM   #45 
         It would also have 60 columns per side instead of 20.  pox americana   Oct-07-05 10:56 PM   #46 
            Absolute B.S.  MercutioATC   Oct-07-05 11:13 PM   #47 
               Tell it to the engineers  pox americana   Oct-07-05 11:20 PM   #49 
                  Yes, but engineers scale their experiments to real buildings...  MercutioATC   Oct-07-05 11:26 PM   #50 
                  Let's start with the width-height ratio.  pox americana   Oct-07-05 11:39 PM   #52 
                     You're kidding, right?  MercutioATC   Oct-08-05 12:49 AM   #58 
                        Evidently you haven't been paying attention.  pox americana   Oct-08-05 01:13 AM   #60 
                           Evidently, your criteria are much more lenient than mine...  MercutioATC   Oct-08-05 01:28 AM   #61 
                              Already covered, but here's a make-up session:  pox americana   Oct-08-05 01:56 AM   #63 
                                 Actually, it's not been "covered".  MercutioATC   Oct-08-05 02:02 AM   #64 
                                    If you want to believe Home Depot uses better steel  pox americana   Oct-08-05 02:09 AM   #65 
                                       You're still choosing not to answer my questions.  MercutioATC   Oct-08-05 02:46 AM   #66 
                                          Asking an obvious question repeatedly  pox americana   Oct-08-05 05:47 AM   #67 
                                             Pretty much what I expected.  MercutioATC   Oct-09-05 02:42 AM   #76 
                                                A valiant attempt MercutioATC....  Macadian   Jul-05-06 04:57 PM   #109 
                                                   Consider this  Martensitic Madness   Jul-07-06 01:38 PM   #157 
                                                   Your premise that the bolts failed is of the Zipper-Pancake epoch  petgoat   Jul-07-06 01:58 PM   #159 
                                                   So you're going to stick with...  Macadian   Jul-07-06 02:31 PM   #162 
                                                   Hey Mac, one PhD says the flimsy truss clips unzipped, the  petgoat   Jul-07-06 03:41 PM   #166 
                  Perhaps you should read up on wind tunnel testing.  AZCat   Oct-07-05 11:27 PM   #51 
                     Thanks for the suggestion. n/t  pox americana   Oct-07-05 11:41 PM   #54 
                        You are welcome.  AZCat   Oct-08-05 12:00 AM   #56 
                        A simple example for structural scaling.  AZCat   Oct-08-05 07:52 AM   #68 
   While this model is not an acurate representation..  atomic-fly   Oct-06-05 09:26 AM   #15 
   Interesting experiment.  Old and In the Way   Oct-06-05 03:23 PM   #20 
   An issue NIST (I think I remember this) raises is that differential heat  petgoat   Oct-07-05 01:13 AM   #31 
   Experimental confirmation of what I've long suspected:  pox americana   Oct-06-05 03:52 PM   #26 
   Good try, but...  thewormman   Oct-07-05 06:24 AM   #36 
   Good try, but...  thewormman   Oct-07-05 06:26 AM   #37 
   You should see the National Geographic documentary  Frederik   Oct-07-05 11:33 AM   #38 
   That's show biz.  pox americana   Oct-07-05 03:19 PM   #41 
      Oh please  Frederik   Oct-07-05 04:04 PM   #42 
      I think I'd be equally critical of both  pox americana   Oct-07-05 08:04 PM   #43 
         The documentary  Frederik   Oct-08-05 03:57 PM   #74 
         Logically, I'd want to get...  StrafingMoose   Oct-08-05 04:03 PM   #75 
      When did spooked get into the engineering business???  Macadian   Jul-05-06 04:54 PM   #108 
         A valid point, but we should hold History and National Geographic  petgoat   Jul-05-06 05:39 PM   #111 
            Well, yes & no....  Macadian   Jul-06-06 08:57 AM   #117 
               "Spooked has not met even the low standards"  petgoat   Jul-06-06 12:53 PM   #122 
                  Backyard science is fine and dandy....  Macadian   Jul-06-06 01:53 PM   #130 
   the problem  Bouvet_Island   Oct-07-05 09:09 PM   #44 
   The analyis he posted on another thead is more convincing to me  philb   Oct-08-05 12:01 AM   #57 
   couple of questions about your experiment...  kevinam   Oct-08-05 01:06 AM   #59 
   None of that matters.  MercutioATC   Oct-08-05 01:32 AM   #62 
   Good points. But one by one--  spooked911   Oct-08-05 10:26 AM   #69 
   Third expt with a similar set-up:  spooked911   Oct-12-05 12:36 PM   #77 
   Bravo, Spooked.  petgoat   Oct-12-05 06:03 PM   #78 
   Thanks! I've thought about doing what you say, actually, but haven't had  spooked911   Oct-12-05 06:49 PM   #80 
   This proves it then.  Make7   Oct-12-05 06:34 PM   #79 
   Sorry, I didn't write that up properly. The fire was strong for about  spooked911   Oct-12-05 06:52 PM   #81 
   Jesus! Why not try modeling your "experiment" after the actual buildings?  MercutioATC   Oct-12-05 10:19 PM   #82 
      You're more than welcome to do your own experiment  spooked911   Oct-13-05 10:15 PM   #84 
         No need, i'm conviced.  mike923   Jul-06-06 12:28 PM   #120 
   Couple of points  LithosLead Moderator   Oct-12-05 11:08 PM   #83 
   It's NOT chicken wire, it is garden fencing meant to keep out rabbits. And  spooked911   Oct-13-05 10:32 PM   #85 
      I think it's the unsupported length of the column...  AZCat   Oct-13-05 10:38 PM   #86 
   Kick  Jazz2006   Jun-24-06 02:17 AM   #87 
   I never saw this before.  greyl   Jun-25-06 01:09 AM   #88 
      Bunnies  Jazz2006   Jun-25-06 01:24 AM   #89 
         Sources tell me that spooked is a scientist.  greyl   Jun-25-06 01:37 AM   #90 
         Sources tell me  Jazz2006   Jun-25-06 01:42 AM   #91 
         How do we prove that we're friendly to the honest ones? nt  greyl   Jun-25-06 01:50 AM   #92 
            Same as always, by words and actions. n/t  Jazz2006   Jun-25-06 01:54 AM   #93 
               Take care of your goodness.  greyl   Jun-25-06 01:58 AM   #94 
                  Always.  Jazz2006   Jun-25-06 02:01 AM   #95 
                  That ought to be easy  mirandapriestly   Jul-07-06 08:28 PM   #176 
                     Ohhhhh, you so totally dissed me!  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 02:18 AM   #184 
         If you would bother to look at spooked's blog and take a  petgoat   Jun-25-06 11:57 AM   #97 
            Thanks for your input.  Jazz2006   Jun-29-06 11:17 PM   #102 
         Ah, there's those prize-winning emoticons again.  petgoat   Jun-25-06 11:51 AM   #96 
         Sorry, you lose. My emoticons are bigger than yours.  petgoat   Jun-25-06 04:15 PM   #98 
            Thanks again x2 for your input.  Jazz2006   Jun-29-06 11:21 PM   #103 
            OMG, bwahaha.  mirandapriestly   Jul-07-06 09:28 PM   #178 
               Thanks for your observation.  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 02:17 AM   #183 
   Suggestion for 2 new experiments: WTC 7  Jeroen   Jun-28-06 11:03 AM   #100 
   yep...scaling is the problem  bobby911   Jun-29-06 07:03 AM   #101 
   WTC test  lcwilson   Jul-05-06 01:31 PM   #104 
   Welcome to DU! :) nt  greyl   Jul-05-06 01:44 PM   #105 
   Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-05-06 02:30 PM   #106 
   Welcome to DU ryams!  petgoat   Jul-05-06 05:44 PM   #112 
   Thanks...  ryams27   Jul-06-06 09:43 AM   #118 
      That's circular reasoning.  petgoat   Jul-06-06 01:04 PM   #123 
         Psst, they've been banned. Thanks for rolling out the red carpet  greyl   Jul-06-06 01:25 PM   #128 
            That wasn't just a RW troll! That was Jonah his own self!  boloboffin   Jul-06-06 02:04 PM   #132 
               You might be correct, but I'm not convinced. ;)  greyl   Jul-06-06 02:13 PM   #134 
   Lookee here...  boloboffin   Jul-05-06 11:20 PM   #113 
      Nice job. :)  greyl   Jul-06-06 06:33 AM   #114 
      Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-06-06 09:45 AM   #119 
   Please tell me you're joking.  NoiseLTD   Jul-06-06 07:48 AM   #115 
   Welcome to DU, however  greyl   Jul-06-06 08:20 AM   #116 
      Do you have any specific criticisms, or any constructive  petgoat   Jul-06-06 01:06 PM   #124 
      You said "spooked's experiment proves nothing".  greyl   Jul-06-06 01:17 PM   #125 
      See Fair Enough...  NoiseLTD   Jul-06-06 01:21 PM   #127 
      Fair enough...  NoiseLTD   Jul-06-06 01:18 PM   #126 
         Yep, I pretty much agree with all of that.  greyl   Jul-06-06 01:37 PM   #129 
         links?  NoiseLTD   Jul-06-06 02:03 PM   #131 
            Here ya go:  greyl   Jul-06-06 02:07 PM   #133 
         "You have someone positing a conspiracy based on..."  petgoat   Jul-06-06 03:38 PM   #135 
            well said amigo  BrokenBeyondRepair   Jul-06-06 04:19 PM   #136 
   This confirms what I've suspected all along  enough already   Jul-06-06 05:41 PM   #137 
   This confirms nothing  Codeine   Jul-06-06 05:52 PM   #138 
      Yes, far too many DUers waste time because of so much...  BuddyYoung   Jul-06-06 06:04 PM   #139 
         Don't you know any other tunes, Buddy?  boloboffin   Jul-06-06 06:18 PM   #140 
            C'mon boloboffin, that one's getting old.  BuddyYoung   Jul-06-06 08:16 PM   #143 
               You're telling me.  boloboffin   Jul-06-06 11:09 PM   #144 
                  I've already told you, and so have plenty of other people.  BuddyYoung   Jul-07-06 10:49 AM   #149 
                  You do know two songs!  boloboffin   Jul-07-06 12:27 PM   #153 
                     Three: You forgot about "I Can See Thru OCT'er BS Clearly Now".  BuddyYoung   Jul-07-06 01:50 PM   #158 
                  They don't need a songbook,  carlvs   Jul-07-06 11:18 AM   #150 
   :rofl:  grytpype   Jul-06-06 06:52 PM   #141 
   Great work! Now try a scientific experiment.  The Night Owl   Jul-06-06 07:12 PM   #142 
   wtf?  aikoaiko   Jul-07-06 08:56 AM   #146 
   Consider it a joke at your own risk  slackmaster   Jul-07-06 10:47 AM   #148 
   Serious Stuff!  sighkobabl   Jul-07-06 05:36 PM   #171 
   I'm glad the bunny got away  slackmaster   Jul-07-06 10:46 AM   #147 
   Structural engineering  joshbetts   Jul-07-06 12:02 PM   #151 
   what's your take on the molten steel/iron dripping out the..  BrokenBeyondRepair   Jul-07-06 01:21 PM   #156 
      what's your take on the molten steel/iron dripping out the..  joshbetts   Jul-07-06 02:23 PM   #161 
         serious?  BrokenBeyondRepair   Jul-07-06 02:42 PM   #163 
            serious?  joshbetts   Jul-07-06 03:14 PM   #164 
            the laws of physic aren't up for debate  BrokenBeyondRepair   Jul-07-06 03:59 PM   #167 
            BrokenBeyondRepair,  joshbetts   Jul-07-06 04:13 PM   #168 
               obviously, there is reasonable doubt  BrokenBeyondRepair   Jul-07-06 04:31 PM   #169 
            It is disingenuous to require proof of a proposition when you  petgoat   Jul-07-06 08:10 PM   #174 
               I'm not being disingenuous.  joshlbetts   Jul-08-06 05:31 PM   #234 
                  Which link contains structural drawings for the WTC?  dailykoff   Jul-09-06 12:47 AM   #236 
                     dailykoff, Here are some copies of the actual drawings and calculations.  joshlbetts   Jul-09-06 12:15 PM   #260 
                        Thanks, that's helpful.  dailykoff   Jul-10-06 01:44 AM   #276 
            The burning drips look a lot like burning molten plastic.  aikoaiko   Jul-07-06 07:53 PM   #172 
               It appears to be giving off light. In my experience burning  petgoat   Jul-07-06 08:07 PM   #173 
               this is the only image of melting plastic i could..  BrokenBeyondRepair   Jul-07-06 09:05 PM   #177 
               Just put a plastic bag on a stick and stick over a small fire.  aikoaiko   Jul-07-06 11:05 PM   #179 
               Sounds like an easily-tested hypothesis. Please provide  petgoat   Jul-08-06 03:30 AM   #191 
                  I hate to break this to you, but pictures on the internet is not science.  aikoaiko   Jul-09-06 08:25 AM   #253 
                     It proves my point. The material in the firefall at WTC2 was incandescent  petgoat   Jul-09-06 11:42 AM   #257 
                        sorry, I don't think you don't understand what you're seeing.  aikoaiko   Jul-09-06 03:45 PM   #269 
                           I understand what I'm seeing just fine. Maybe my diction is off.  petgoat   Jul-09-06 04:08 PM   #270 
               "can never be proven beyond doubt"  petgoat   Jul-08-06 03:27 AM   #189 
                  there will always be those that doubt or..  BrokenBeyondRepair   Jul-08-06 03:40 AM   #194 
                  It looks like molten steel to me, and no alternate explanation  petgoat   Jul-08-06 03:46 AM   #197 
                     Then take your own suggestion.  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 03:51 AM   #200 
                        I don't need to. I already have, I've melted plastic, steel, and  petgoat   Jul-08-06 04:03 AM   #204 
                           So post your images as you've asked others to.  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 04:09 AM   #209 
                           Oh, and that reminds me.... epistemology  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 04:55 AM   #218 
                  Melt steel, melt aluminum, melt plastic, pour them off a fifty foot drop..  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 03:50 AM   #198 
                     The ball's in your court. Everyone knows plastic make flames,  petgoat   Jul-08-06 03:52 AM   #201 
                        No, it isn't.  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 03:58 AM   #203 
                           So take my suggestion. Let's build a bad model that endures,  petgoat   Jul-08-06 04:05 AM   #205 
                              According to your suggestion (which you've now changed), it is so  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 04:08 AM   #208 
                                 Sorry, I got this experiment mixed up with another one I  petgoat   Jul-08-06 03:19 PM   #231 
                                    "I'd had a few bottles of wine."  Jazz2006   Jul-12-06 02:59 AM   #291 
                                    Have you recovered sufficiently from those "few bottles of wine" yet to  Jazz2006   Jul-13-06 03:38 AM   #294 
                                       Nope, nor have a got photos showing rain is wet and sun is dry. nt  petgoat   Jul-13-06 12:03 PM   #300 
                                          I'm not surprised that you haven't backed up what you said.  Jazz2006   Jul-13-06 10:48 PM   #307 
               Couldn't it be aluminum from the airplane that was burnt up inside the  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 02:29 AM   #185 
                  unlikely..  BrokenBeyondRepair   Jul-08-06 03:29 AM   #190 
                     That's not convincing.  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 03:45 AM   #196 
                        Aluminium melts at 600 degrees, at which point it is silvery,  petgoat   Jul-08-06 03:50 AM   #199 
                           Sorry, but I'm not convinced by your say so that it could not have  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 03:57 AM   #202 
                           Pffft. nt  petgoat   Jul-08-06 04:07 AM   #206 
                              I didn't expect you to be able to respond meaningfully.  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 04:11 AM   #210 
                                 Pfft.  petgoat   Jul-08-06 04:12 AM   #212 
                                    Pfft is right!  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 04:16 AM   #213 
                                    Oh, an edit which I should respond to, I see.  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 04:31 AM   #215 
                           Pearls at Swine, PG...nt  mirandapriestly   Jul-09-06 03:41 AM   #238 
                              LOL.  Jazz2006   Jul-09-06 03:56 AM   #241 
   This is pretty funny  capt havermeyer   Jul-07-06 12:17 PM   #152 
   Science Experiment  TheRealSwede   Jul-07-06 01:05 PM   #155 
   Fantastic  JudgeSmails   Jul-07-06 03:16 PM   #165 
   Test Explosive Demolition Hypothesis  what the   Jul-07-06 04:54 PM   #170 
   Now that's funny! Let's try the thermate hypothesis instead, ok? nt  petgoat   Jul-07-06 08:11 PM   #175 
   Blacksmith's forge  what the   Jul-10-06 05:25 PM   #287 
      Charcoal forges have forced air. They also have.... charcoal.  petgoat   Jul-13-06 02:30 AM   #293 
         Heat conduction etc.  what the   Jul-14-06 09:31 PM   #309 
            You stole those words from my mouth...  Carefulplease   Jul-15-06 01:46 AM   #310 
   LOL ~ good one!  Jazz2006   Jul-08-06 02:39 AM   #186 
   You guys are nuts  allfathersgodi   Jul-08-06 12:19 AM   #182 
   Sorry, doesn't prove a thing either way.  rman   Jul-08-06 03:22 AM   #188 
   Ahhhh, you're getting to the synthesis.  petgoat   Jul-08-06 03:35 AM   #192 
      Not just any model  rman   Jul-08-06 03:38 AM   #193 
         Not necessarily. Building bad models can be helpful to  petgoat   Jul-08-06 03:43 AM   #195 
            What's a good model, how do you know it's good?  rman   Jul-08-06 04:08 AM   #207 
            "I doubt that any of us has the means"  petgoat   Jul-08-06 04:11 AM   #211 
               We can't go on unverifiable information  rman   Jul-08-06 04:31 AM   #214 
                  We don't have the means to model it accurately.  petgoat   Jul-08-06 03:27 PM   #232 
                     it'd not be a known error because we have no reference,  rman   Jul-09-06 03:29 AM   #237 
                        I didn't mean a "known error" as in a "measured" or  petgoat   Jul-09-06 11:46 AM   #258 
                           np. However,  rman   Jul-10-06 12:24 AM   #271 
                              We can't know how large the error is until we experiment and  petgoat   Jul-13-06 12:01 PM   #299 
                                 Fine procedure for challenging the Titanic hoax.  Carefulplease   Jul-15-06 02:52 AM   #311 
                                    New kid in town, posting like the old OCT'ers in town. Imagine that!  BuddyYoung   Jul-15-06 11:42 AM   #312 
                                       Glass houses, Mr. June 26th. n/t  boloboffin   Jul-15-06 11:50 AM   #313 
                                       See post #314  BuddyYoung   Jul-16-06 10:20 PM   #315 
                                       You know...  salvorhardin   Jul-16-06 09:28 PM   #314 
            The press might be interested...  Carefulplease   Jul-08-06 01:38 PM   #229 
   The Stupidity of the Left  allfathersgodi   Jul-08-06 01:21 PM   #228 
   Good point, but I'd like to think some Democrats and  petgoat   Jul-08-06 02:04 PM   #230 
   Actually quite a few GOP have come out  mirandapriestly   Jul-09-06 04:02 AM   #243 
   is this a joke?  omenapoint   Jul-08-06 04:18 PM   #233 
   You are an idiot  demfool   Jul-08-06 05:40 PM   #235 
   See how easy it is  mirandapriestly   Jul-09-06 12:27 PM   #264 
      And who would suspect that anyone with a screen name  rman   Jul-10-06 12:27 AM   #272 
         Surely, just another one of those totally unexpected COINCIDENCES. nt  BuddyYoung   Jul-10-06 12:36 AM   #273 
         Are you saying that  mirandapriestly   Jul-10-06 12:44 AM   #274 
            Incredible and unprecedented as it may seem,  rman   Jul-10-06 12:50 AM   #275 
               I'm shocked.nt  mirandapriestly   Jul-10-06 11:09 AM   #283 
   You are famous  Stella_Artois   Jul-09-06 07:53 AM   #252 
   So I'e heard. Although I'm not really clear why what I did is so  spooked911   Jul-09-06 09:54 AM   #254 
   Those people don't talk for all of us  DrDebug   Jul-09-06 12:21 PM   #262 
   I agree.  Old and In the Way   Jul-09-06 12:28 PM   #265 
   What is the saying  mirandapriestly   Jul-09-06 12:29 PM   #266 
   what's funny to me is how they point to this experiment  spooked911   Jul-09-06 12:39 PM   #267 
      Because those of us living in NYC  emMingo   Jul-10-06 10:30 AM   #277 
      uh-huh, sure you did.  mirandapriestly   Jul-10-06 10:58 AM   #279 
      Different reasons, depending on where one is coming from  BuddyYoung   Jul-10-06 10:50 AM   #278 
      They NEVER post on the threads  mirandapriestly   Jul-10-06 10:59 AM   #280 
      I hadn't noticed that, but you are certainly right. A jazz bump, then  BuddyYoung   Jul-10-06 02:29 PM   #285 
      Lol ~ that must be it.  Jazz2006   Jul-11-06 03:30 AM   #289 
      Once they saw these pictures, there was no need to look for  boloboffin   Jul-10-06 12:48 PM   #284 
      It's could be the footwear.  Jazz2006   Jul-11-06 03:25 AM   #288 
   I think you did it with the full knowledge of the results  Generarth   Jul-14-06 09:25 AM   #308 
   Those who say that about DU are going to say it anyway  mirandapriestly   Jul-09-06 12:23 PM   #263 
      Who knows  Stella_Artois   Jul-10-06 04:03 PM   #286 
         Spooked is not claiming the rabbit cage experiment  petgoat   Jul-13-06 11:53 AM   #298 
   Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-09-06 10:15 AM   #256 
   LMAO...Can you say "not to scale"  Freedom_Aflaim   Jul-11-06 12:09 PM   #290 
   Not to scale is right.  petgoat   Jul-13-06 11:51 AM   #297 
      How?!  boolean   Jul-13-06 03:53 PM   #301 
         Welcome to DU, Boolean  petgoat   Jul-13-06 07:31 PM   #304 
            Now it's my turn  boolean   Jul-13-06 08:26 PM   #305 
               Ok  petgoat   Jul-13-06 08:55 PM   #306 
   You REALLY need to find a different hobby. Just friendly advice.  Redstone   Jul-16-06 10:23 PM   #316 
   Locking  LithosLead Moderator   Jul-16-06 10:32 PM   #317 
 

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