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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-11 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. Most analysts seem to agree
that the trouble started when Israel didn't notify Turkey (which was mediating between Israel and the Palestinians at the time) of OCL in advance.

And I should note their behaviour went well beyond "criticism" - see, for example, Erdogan's very public snubbing of Peres (at Dabos, IIRC)
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  -UN report: Gaza blockade legal, Israel used excessive force oberliner  Sep-01-11 05:52 PM   #0 
  - Report Finds Naval Blockade by Israel Legal but Faults Raid  King_David   Sep-01-11 06:02 PM   #1 
  - UN panel says Gaza blockade was legal  King_David   Sep-01-11 06:09 PM   #2 
  - Why does this not surprise me?  dgibby   Sep-01-11 06:19 PM   #3 
  - Ha  King_David   Sep-01-11 06:30 PM   #4 
  - Israeli official to Clinton: Declare Turkey a terror-supporting state  Fozzledick   Sep-01-11 07:51 PM   #5 
  - yepper so says Palmer a failed nonelected ex-PM of New Zealand  azurnoir   Sep-01-11 08:10 PM   #6 
  - Ha Ha nt  King_David   Sep-01-11 11:11 PM   #7 
  - Israel is worried about legal action against it's officers  azurnoir   Sep-01-11 11:40 PM   #8 
     - What this post has to do with you slagging Palmer  King_David   Sep-02-11 07:06 AM   #9 
        - lot's of things seem 'beyond' you  azurnoir   Sep-02-11 05:45 PM   #25 
  - In NZ, like here, the people elect a party to form government...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-02-11 07:51 AM   #10 
     - He leave politics completely now? nt  King_David   Sep-02-11 04:29 PM   #20 
     - What are you trying to say?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-02-11 05:11 PM   #21 
        - Sorry replied to the wrong post nt  King_David   Sep-02-11 06:14 PM   #26 
     - Not quite right on the US process...but not enough to impact the point you are making  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 01:27 PM   #59 
  - About time. The delays in releasing it were getting silly...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-02-11 07:57 AM   #11 
  - Turkey expels Israel envoy after Gaza flotilla report, freezes military ties  Violet_Crumble   Sep-02-11 08:05 AM   #12 
  - Big mistake by Israel  Harmony Blue   Sep-02-11 10:22 AM   #15 
     - Turkey's been a lost cause since at least 2009 WRT relations with Israel.  shira   Sep-02-11 10:49 AM   #16 
     - Both Turkey and Israel have deeply rooted ties to religion  Harmony Blue   Sep-02-11 11:11 AM   #17 
     - Turkey hasn't been a military partner  eyl   Sep-02-11 02:46 PM   #19 
        - ah so Turkey has criticized Israel since OCL?  azurnoir   Sep-02-11 05:43 PM   #24 
           - Most analysts seem to agree  eyl   Sep-03-11 03:45 AM   #31 
              - Erdogan was Turkey's PM for 6 years prior to OCL  azurnoir   Sep-03-11 07:26 AM   #49 
                 - Your point?  eyl   Sep-03-11 09:11 AM   #53 
                    - first off the incident with Peres happened after the Mavi Mamara incident  azurnoir   Sep-03-11 01:46 PM   #62 
                       - The incident with Peres  eyl   Sep-04-11 10:24 AM   #163 
                          - the nearest thing to'snubbing' Peres -Turkish president rejects Peres snub claims 9/21/10  azurnoir   Sep-04-11 04:58 PM   #167 
                             - You're correct  eyl   Sep-05-11 12:18 PM   #171 
                                - Here is what Erdogan said  azurnoir   Sep-07-11 01:59 AM   #175 
                                   - Saying that Peres  eyl   Sep-08-11 08:35 AM   #176 
  - I just saw the report. It's 105 pages....  Violet_Crumble   Sep-02-11 09:14 AM   #13 
  - I wonder where their use of force standards come from?  Mosby   Sep-02-11 11:27 AM   #18 
     - I don't know. Have you tried reading the report?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-02-11 05:13 PM   #22 
  - But, but.... I was told the blockade was illegal, Israelis murdered good, loving peace activists...  shira   Sep-02-11 10:07 AM   #14 
     - Well, you know how biased and anti-Israel the UN is!  Violet_Crumble   Sep-02-11 05:14 PM   #23 
        - What do you think of the report's main conclusions?  shira   Sep-02-11 06:24 PM   #27 
           - What do you think its main conclusions are then?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-02-11 06:51 PM   #28 
              - Forget it. I don't have time for more of this nonsense. n/t  shira   Sep-02-11 08:38 PM   #29 
                 - Yeah, actually reading a report is sooo nonsensical!  Violet_Crumble   Sep-02-11 09:00 PM   #30 
                 - Translation: I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm going to insult you to try  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 05:42 AM   #32 
                    - I asked a question and got the run around as usual. So why bother? n/t  shira   Sep-03-11 06:07 AM   #33 
                       - You got asked a simple question as you'd admitted you'd read the report...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 06:11 AM   #34 
                       - I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.  shira   Sep-03-11 06:15 AM   #36 
                          - If you haven't read the report then you have no idea if Palmer's conclusions are correct. You have  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 06:28 AM   #39 
                          - That is nonsense,  King_David   Sep-03-11 04:39 PM   #122 
                             - So, what were the conclusions of the report?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 07:02 PM   #137 
                             - Why? It is hard work reading it?  King_David   Sep-03-11 07:37 PM   #140 
                                - No, where would you come up with such a silly idea?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 07:58 PM   #142 
                                   - No I do not 'agree with what was said'  King_David   Sep-03-11 08:14 PM   #143 
                                      - Thanks for the reply. You pointed out exactly what I found wrong with that piece n/t  Violet_Crumble   Sep-04-11 06:27 AM   #154 
                             - If you haven't read the report, then how do you know the aricle was right? He could  Exilednight   Sep-04-11 03:34 PM   #166 
                          - And seeing you haven't read the report, I asked you what you think the main conclusions were...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 06:30 AM   #40 
                             - You think the UN panel is wrong in saying the blockade is legal? n/t  shira   Sep-03-11 07:02 AM   #47 
                                - You still haven't told me what you think the main conclusions are...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 07:08 AM   #48 
                                   - I won't hold my breath waiting, I guess n/t  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 07:33 AM   #50 
                                   - So you disagree with the UN panel WRT the legality of the blockade. Thanks. n/t  shira   Sep-03-11 07:45 AM   #51 
                                      - And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what you think the main conclusions are...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 07:50 AM   #52 
                                      - Why you wasting your time  King_David   Sep-03-11 04:41 PM   #124 
                                         - I agree I'm wasting my time, but I'm hanging round hoping Shira will answer my question...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 05:16 PM   #128 
                                            - Interesting,  King_David   Sep-03-11 07:33 PM   #139 
                                               - Not really...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 07:53 PM   #141 
                                                  - Mmhh that answer is difficult to understand  King_David   Sep-03-11 08:15 PM   #144 
                                                     - Ah, that's such a shame! n/t  Violet_Crumble   Sep-04-11 03:08 AM   #148 
                       - You were asked a legitmate question. What do you think the  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 06:13 AM   #35 
                          - I want to know what you guys think about the main conclusions....  shira   Sep-03-11 06:16 AM   #37 
                             - You might as well just admit that you have no idea what you think the main conclusion should be  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 06:26 AM   #38 
                                - The UN panel finds the blockade legal. What do you think about that? n/t  shira   Sep-03-11 06:37 AM   #41 
                                - The UN is wrong. n/t  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 06:40 AM   #43 
                                   - Thanks. n/t  shira   Sep-03-11 07:01 AM   #46 
                                   - As always ? (when it comes to Israel)  King_David   Sep-03-11 11:24 AM   #54 
                                   - The UN is correct under LOS  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 01:28 PM   #60 
                                      - And what part of LOS are you basing this on? n/t  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:15 PM   #76 
                                         - San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994 is  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 03:36 PM   #85 
                                            - You're avoiding the question. Exactly which part of LOS are you basing this on. Give me a link to  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:40 PM   #92 
                                               - Lets start with the Palmer report itself  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 04:05 PM   #109 
                                                  - Article 102 would make the blockade illegal, and the Red Cross agrees. n/t  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 04:19 PM   #117 
                                                     - That is indeed something under contention  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 04:40 PM   #123 
                                                     - that's providing that Gaza actually had the facilities to move rockets in from the sea, but  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 04:44 PM   #125 
                                                     - It documents active hostilities, one of the qualifiers for a blockade  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 04:48 PM   #126 
                                                     - I would argue that it is only reasonable if Gaza had the means to remove rockets  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 04:54 PM   #127 
                                                     - You are aware that shipments of military goods have been intercepted in the past?  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 05:53 PM   #129 
                                                     - And what was thier plan to unload them and move them to land? n/t  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 05:56 PM   #130 
                                                     - Fishing vessels/other small boats  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 06:01 PM   #131 
                                                     - Doesn't sound feasible.  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 06:12 PM   #132 
                                                     - It clearly was being done  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 06:22 PM   #133 
                                                     - Small stuff like mortars and such could be moved in that way, but full scale missile  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 06:24 PM   #134 
                                                     - Grads and components for Qassams could be handled easily  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 06:53 PM   #135 
                                - To be fair she's probably waiting for a PalWatch video to be released...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 06:39 AM   #42 
                                - Did you catch this part?  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 06:55 AM   #44 
                                   - Yeah, I read that bit...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 06:58 AM   #45 
                                - the report states that the Israelis were attacked with metal bars, knives and guns  Mosby   Sep-03-11 11:36 AM   #55 
                                   - No guns were found.  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 12:04 PM   #56 
                                      - Two IDF soldiers were shot  Mosby   Sep-03-11 12:47 PM   #57 
                                      - The repost clearly contradicts itself in this area and tries to white wash the "passengers"  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 01:24 PM   #58 
                                      - There were claims of soldiers being shot, but there is no evidence. No guns were found, no  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 01:37 PM   #61 
                                         - Did you follow up on his citations?  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 01:48 PM   #63 
                                            - Here are the citations that I found in the report:  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 01:50 PM   #64 
                                               - Look on page 57 where it says:  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 03:23 PM   #80 
                                                  - Yes, i know what the numbers are. What is your point?  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:39 PM   #90 
                                                     - The study accepted that soliders were indeed shot  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 03:44 PM   #97 
                                                     - The report accepts it, but can't prove it. There's a difference. Claims were made  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:47 PM   #100 
                                                     - The authors had no reason to give the IDF the benefit of the doubt  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 03:50 PM   #103 
                                                     - But they did give IDF the benefit of the doubt  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:56 PM   #104 
                                                     - As I stated earlier, the report contradicts itself in places  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 04:10 PM   #113 
                                      - its not really relevant if they had guns or not...  pelsar   Sep-03-11 02:08 PM   #65 
                                         - So killing 8 people is justifiable even though they were not armed with anything that posed  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 02:12 PM   #66 
                                            - is this one of those foolish arguments....where reality doesn't exist?  pelsar   Sep-03-11 02:32 PM   #67 
                                               - They don't have the ability to kill if they are going against trained commandos who  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 02:35 PM   #68 
                                                  - So you are a green beret?  Mosby   Sep-03-11 02:53 PM   #69 
                                                  - I was in 3rd group. I was an 18D junior medic. n/t  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 02:56 PM   #71 
                                                     - Candystriper?  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 03:18 PM   #78 
                                                     - When I went through it was called SFAS  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:32 PM   #83 
                                                     - I have family in the 1st of the 1st  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 03:37 PM   #88 
                                                     - Now days, I imaginate that they aren't. SF is currently spread too thin  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:45 PM   #98 
                                                  - then you should know better....  pelsar   Sep-03-11 02:54 PM   #70 
                                                  - Knives aren't threatening with the tools the military has at their disposal. There are many  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 02:59 PM   #72 
                                                     - in a crowd?  pelsar   Sep-03-11 03:04 PM   #73 
                                                     - wrong place.  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:08 PM   #74 
                                                     - tear gas, ATM and RGES to name a few. n/t  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:09 PM   #75 
                                                     - you've just failed "taking over boat" course 1  pelsar   Sep-03-11 03:18 PM   #77 
                                                     - You shoot tear gas into a compartment, you can also load it on a helicopter and  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:23 PM   #79 
                                                     - Or, you could just keep the boat away from Gaza, no need to "take it over"  bemildred   Sep-03-11 03:30 PM   #81 
                                                     - this should be good....  pelsar   Sep-03-11 03:36 PM   #86 
                                                     - Hi Pelsar, how are you doing? nt  bemildred   Sep-03-11 03:57 PM   #106 
                                                     - actually proud (not related to this thread)  pelsar   Sep-03-11 04:17 PM   #116 
                                                     - Indeed, I wish I could say the same.  bemildred   Sep-03-11 04:23 PM   #119 
                                                     - This was another thought I had. Basically they could of set a  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:36 PM   #87 
                                                     - Big sea, little ships is the problem with that approach  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 03:39 PM   #91 
                                                     - Kennedy had enough to keep the Soviets out of Cuba. n/t  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:41 PM   #94 
                                                     - That was not a shoulder to shoulder blockade as was suggested  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 03:48 PM   #101 
                                                     - But Kennedy did consider ramming a Russian sub. n/t  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:57 PM   #105 
                                                     - that is not even a serious argument...  pelsar   Sep-03-11 03:49 PM   #102 
                                                     - even better..sinking ships....  pelsar   Sep-03-11 03:41 PM   #95 
                                                     - Well, you certainly don't have to get impatient.  bemildred   Sep-03-11 04:06 PM   #110 
                                                     - Or the boats could have not declared themselves blockade runners  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 03:40 PM   #93 
                                                     - Speculation is such fun, isn't it? nt  bemildred   Sep-03-11 04:10 PM   #112 
                                                     - great...so then they're jumping overboard...  pelsar   Sep-03-11 03:31 PM   #82 
                                                     - They didn't have anything to fear if they used different tactics and there's nothing to indicate  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:35 PM   #84 
                                                     - so know you have the intelligence?  pelsar   Sep-03-11 03:38 PM   #89 
                                                     - There was only one boat where 8 people ended up dead, who says  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 03:43 PM   #96 
                                                     - Reality is that under the LOS they should have not fought back and allowed inspection  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 03:47 PM   #99 
                                                     - so know were back to where we started...  pelsar   Sep-03-11 03:57 PM   #107 
                                                     - You're back to where you started. IDF took the wrong approach by sending in commandos with  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 04:03 PM   #108 
                                                     - The problem started with the declaration of intent to run the blockade  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 04:09 PM   #111 
                                                     - The report also says that Israel is just as wrong as does not remove fault  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 04:11 PM   #114 
                                                     - I indeed meant shared responsibility  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 04:38 PM   #121 
                                                     - The point is that they had every intention of creating a "problem",  bemildred   Sep-03-11 04:13 PM   #115 
                                                     - paintball guns....  pelsar   Sep-03-11 04:22 PM   #118 
                                                     - They also had 9mm weapons that were taken away from them. Again, there were other  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 04:26 PM   #120 
                                                     - aren't paintball non violent weapons?  pelsar   Sep-03-11 06:54 PM   #136 
                                                     - Pelsar, have you read the report?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-03-11 07:10 PM   #138 
                                                     - i never read UN/NGO reports and findings  pelsar   Sep-04-11 02:56 AM   #147 
                                                     - You should think about having a read of this one. It's very balanced...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-04-11 03:24 AM   #149 
                                                     - Cut out the bullshit, Violet...  shira   Sep-04-11 05:52 AM   #151 
                                                     - No bullshit from me, but there's a lot in yr post...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-04-11 06:26 AM   #153 
                                                     - The same eyewitnesses say the IDF was shooting before rappelling down from choppers onto the ship.  shira   Sep-04-11 06:55 AM   #155 
                                                     - Wasn't I clear enough for you?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-04-11 07:03 AM   #156 
                                                     - Of course you believe that bullshit. It makes so much sense for the IDF to open fire...  shira   Sep-04-11 07:10 AM   #157 
                                                     - I really wish you'd stop misrepresenting my views...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-04-11 07:20 AM   #158 
                                                     - Deleted message  Name removed   Sep-04-11 07:27 AM   #159 
                                                     - Why aren't you bothering to read what I tell you?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-04-11 07:33 AM   #160 
                                                     - Why don't you think those 'eyewitnesses' you trust have never condemned IHH Jew haters....  shira   Sep-04-11 07:42 AM   #161 
                                                     - Why are you still totally ignoring what I said to you?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-04-11 07:49 AM   #162 
                                                     - the actual operation was criticized heavily in israel  pelsar   Sep-05-11 01:58 AM   #168 
                                                     - They hurt like hell when you get hit by one  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-03-11 08:25 PM   #145 
                                                     - I wouldn't consider a paintball gun any type of weapon, lethal or non. n/t  Exilednight   Sep-03-11 08:43 PM   #146 
                                                     - well that sure makes it easy doesn't it?  pelsar   Sep-05-11 02:10 AM   #169 
                                                     - What closed compartment?  eyl   Sep-04-11 10:36 AM   #164 
                                                     - IDF in action.....keystone cops  pelsar   Sep-05-11 02:13 AM   #170 
                                                     - My understanding is  eyl   Sep-05-11 02:42 PM   #172 
                                                     - sounds like someone was 'covering their ass"  pelsar   Sep-05-11 05:52 PM   #173 
                                                     - If some fool came at me with a metal rod or knife then that fool brought a  Dick Dastardly   Sep-04-11 05:00 AM   #150 
                                                     - And NO ONE would blame you for popping some caps in his ass. We all know that.  shira   Sep-04-11 05:55 AM   #152 
                                                  - Is that  eyl   Sep-04-11 01:46 PM   #165 
                                                  - impressive  Shaktimaan   Sep-07-11 01:33 AM   #174 
 

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