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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-22-11 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #120
121. listen to your wife....
Edited on Fri Jul-22-11 09:18 AM by pelsar
First off let me congratulate you on marrying an obviously very intelligent women, one who you should probably listen to more:

There is at least one person who agrees with your superiority version of the rights of democratic nations My wife!.....She thinks the UN should be replaced by the UDN (United Democratic Nations).

ok so we agree that "wrongs" are not equalthat i would say is one of my base arguments (zionism being the "lesser wrong")

I believe that in general the world has accepted it was wrong and although it cannot change 2,000 years of history, it can and does ensure that Jews today, have a high proportion of representation in government

but thats nothing newthis anti semitism thing comes and goes in waves in different geographic areas. Germany was one of the "enlightened" countries, Spain was also doing great before it dumped "its jews". Your claiming that "things have changed" has zero proof, its just belief.a belief that jews after so many times being fooled have a right not to believe.

Ah yes..I had forgotten your superiority version of the rights of democratic nations.The western democracies and Israel dont seem to agree with you, at least when it suits them....Remember Israels support for the Shah?...And even this year it continues to support King Abdullah and sided with Mubarak against the democratic revolution.

your confusing the superior governing morality of a govt based on civil rights etc vs the reality of politics in a very nasty world. It was right to work with Stalin in WWII against hitler, hitler was the "worser" of the two, I would argue that the shah had better potential for reform and support from iranians and made for a safer world than khomeni today. Democracies have to live in this world and using illiberal methods to protect themselves is simply a reality.

Just so that I am absolutely clear on this, can you confirm that, in your view, a democracy has the right to attack and democratize, say China, even if there is a possibility that the majority of Chinese prefer to be ruled by the existing non-democratic communist government?

yes..dictatorships can never have the "will of the people" for no longer than a single generation, hence there is no choice but the democracy if once is concerned with the "will of the people."

dictatorships, do not have real representation, their "voting" is pretty much a joke, if at all. So if there is a revolution and leader K takes over. When generation 2,3 ,4 grows up, they may not want to keep K (or his son) and may want a change. However revolutions do not come easy and when they start they don't always succeed. hence our youngsters in Generation 2,3,4 because of the dictatorship that they parents put in to place, will not get the chance for the change they want. If your recall, the iranian attempt failed, syrias is now failing, Egypt is now getting an army dominated version.

There is no "will of the people" in a dictatorship, there is only the power grab and the restriction of the those people.

so even if one group in a population prefers a dictatorship/strong man, they cannot be accommodated because it creates a situation where its very difficult to accommodate changes in the will of the people.

(and just to put some realism-the west may have the "right" to force a change, obviously in the real world, its not always a good idea to even try...).

Surely, as a democrat, you must accept that it is the will of the majority of the people that matters and there is little doubt that the majority of Palestinians did not want Zionist immigration

no the majority does not get automatic rights to create civilizations/societies based on taking away minority rights, etcsimply no. The majority has a single right and that is to create a society that provides equal rights. The Palestinians were not going in that direction, to say the least-creating an additional dictatorship or adding to the syrian/egyptian/jordanian ones was/is not a moral right.

The land mass that made up Palestinian was nothing more than a space between other arbitrary lines in the sand, that unlike other areas had a decent chance to produce a democracy since those that those who would come (the zionists) to create that democracy were going to stay (vs the US army that will leave iraq and afganistan in their failed efforts)

If something's right for me, it's right for you; if it's wrong for you, it's wrong for me

If it was not morally wrong of the Zionists to do that, then it was not morally wrong of the Western world to dominate the Jews and make them live as second class citizens!..... The two action were carried out by western civilizationsIs that being ethnocentric?

first off, obviously i'm ethnocentricbelieving that democracy has no equal in our world..but now i understand what your getting at with Chomsky. its definitely ethnocentric to say what is good for me is good for you, if we limit it to western democracies it works under the moral code, but its limited to democracies. The chinese will probably disagree with what Chomsky thinks is good.

but Zionism does not regulate lawfully its citizens to second class, so i'm not sure how it fits.

Had I been a Jew in those circumstances, I hope I would have declared that I wanted nothing to do with a scheme which perforce made an innocent people second-class citizens.As a Jew, I would be well aware of how unpleasant that position could be.

that choice was made by many.hence the 6 million..commiting your children to be gassed could easily be claimed to be an immoral decision.

Of course industrial genocide should be everyone's interest, and universal support for international protests, sanctions and anything short of declaring war....However, would the potential killing of 6 million Jews alone be justification for the Allies to declare war on Germany?WW2 resulted in the deaths of some 50 million peopleShould the possibility of saving 6 million outweigh the possibility of causing the death of 44 million?

well lets at least start with throwing out the window the concept that Stace puts forth of "Hands off other countries" your sanctions already affect the citizens of the country your "protesting against." the next question is simply how far are you willing to go in interfering in a "countries business"

after its been discovered that sanctions don't work.what next? (as Hitlers engineers start with the different concepts of industrial genocide....). Realistilcy you don't have a whole lot of options, short of invading to produce a change. Don't forget the "people" were behind hitler...that majority who were exercising their rights as a sovereign nation (to kill their own).

so if you do act to stop that industrial genocide, your violating the sacred rule of majority rules (and their choice) and the sanctity of the "nation". If you don't act to stop industrial genocide do you really have the moral authority to tell those that survived that they dont have the moral right to create a nation where they can defend themselves?

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  -Fatah official in Gaza holds unity talks with independents pelsar  Apr-26-11 12:04 AM   #0 
  - 5 months ago Hamas denied Al-Ifranji entry to Gaza  azurnoir   Apr-26-11 12:29 AM   #1 
  - Well, pelsar.........Are you for or against?.........  kayecy   Apr-28-11 01:56 AM   #2 
  - am I for or against?  pelsar   Apr-29-11 02:49 AM   #4 
     - Thank you for your opinion..........However, if you are wrong?  kayecy   Apr-29-11 09:46 AM   #9 
        - i really dont care much about Netanyahu  pelsar   Apr-29-11 11:31 AM   #13 
           - Probably as likely as Israel adopting new policies.......  kayecy   Apr-29-11 11:50 AM   #14 
              - its not about injustice...  pelsar   Apr-29-11 01:25 PM   #16 
                 - You obviously have difficulty empathising with Hamas's strongly held view........  kayecy   Apr-29-11 02:20 PM   #18 
                 - What's to empathize with? Hamas wants Jews out of Israel or dead.  shira   Apr-29-11 05:38 PM   #21 
                 - the sad reflection is ones owns ethnocentrism  pelsar   Apr-29-11 05:39 PM   #22 
                    - Whose ideas of justice are likely to be the more valid?........  kayecy   Apr-30-11 02:34 AM   #23 
                       - just to clarify  pelsar   Apr-30-11 02:55 AM   #25 
                          - It is not 'my' version of justice....  kayecy   Apr-30-11 03:51 AM   #27 
                             - Hamas version of justice - Jews out or dead. What more is there to understand? n/t  shira   Apr-30-11 04:50 AM   #29 
                             - wow...are you in the wrong place  pelsar   Apr-30-11 05:22 AM   #31 
                                - Personal abuse and dodging the question again....Shame on you!  kayecy   Apr-30-11 06:03 AM   #33 
                                   - try again....and I'll ask again  pelsar   Apr-30-11 06:25 AM   #34 
                                      - What a racist question!.....You tell me.......  kayecy   Apr-30-11 07:40 AM   #37 
                                         - your getting closer...  pelsar   Apr-30-11 09:28 AM   #39 
                                            - How much human suffering your policy will lead to remains to be seen.....  kayecy   Apr-30-11 02:13 PM   #41 
                                               - universal justice is from you...  pelsar   Apr-30-11 05:40 PM   #44 
                                                  - Your concept of basic justice seems to be one of arrogance to local inhabitants......  kayecy   May-01-11 02:35 AM   #46 
                                                  - Suppose Israel "understands" and wants justice for Palestinians. Explain how they do that.  shira   May-01-11 06:33 AM   #47 
                                                  - yep it came from me.. i got it off your 'who started it"  pelsar   May-01-11 07:16 AM   #48 
                                                  - Now we have identified exactly where we disagree.....  kayecy   May-01-11 09:18 AM   #50 
                                                  - not so fast....  pelsar   May-01-11 09:40 AM   #51 
                                                  - If I have now answered you, could I trouble you for a response to my last paragraph?........  kayecy   May-01-11 10:04 AM   #54 
                                                  - the answer  pelsar   May-01-11 10:49 AM   #55 
                                                  - So why did you leave the US?.....No-one to fight or be arrogant to?.......  kayecy   May-01-11 11:10 AM   #58 
                                                  - Kayecy, how is setting up a free, representative democracy dominating others?  shira   May-01-11 11:21 AM   #59 
                                                  - Shira...If your are serious, I will reply when pelsar & I have finished our little debate....n/t  kayecy   May-01-11 11:35 AM   #61 
                                                  - why did i leave the US  pelsar   May-01-11 12:47 PM   #63 
                                                  - I am confused again.....How do you reconcile these two statements?......  kayecy   May-01-11 02:11 PM   #65 
                                                  - to create a new society...whatever type  pelsar   May-07-11 04:40 AM   #66 
                                                  - Welcome back............Now where were we.......  kayecy   May-07-11 05:39 AM   #68 
                                                  - If the top of your list is "to minimize violence, death and suffering"...  shira   May-07-11 05:57 AM   #71 
                                                  - then i dont understand..but first  pelsar   May-07-11 01:06 PM   #74 
                                                  - How many more times must I state that I do not, and have never defended these cultures.....  kayecy   May-07-11 02:01 PM   #75 
                                                  - whereas people naturally resist change in their cultures...  pelsar   May-07-11 04:21 PM   #76 
                 - get themselves a working STABLE democracy...  Recursion   May-10-11 08:08 AM   #88 
                    - The Zionists got themselves a working stable democracy while the Brits were occupying. n/t  shira   May-11-11 04:30 AM   #90 
                       - They still don't have a stable working Democracy  Recursion   May-11-11 04:43 AM   #91 
                          - Nevermind, I thought I was conversing with someone who knew what a stable democracy actually was.N/T  shira   May-11-11 05:10 AM   #92 
  - Are the Palestinians entitled to likewise be concerned...  shaayecanaan   Apr-29-11 01:42 AM   #3 
     - that doesn't work...attempts at the moral equivalent  pelsar   Apr-29-11 03:01 AM   #5 
        - so presumably you wouldn't object to Hamas as long as they were elected?  shaayecanaan   Apr-29-11 03:56 AM   #6 
           - of course it "cuts both ways"  pelsar   Apr-29-11 05:22 AM   #7 
              - that wasnt what I mean at all, actually...  shaayecanaan   Apr-29-11 05:59 AM   #8 
              - thats how intl relations works....  pelsar   Apr-29-11 11:16 AM   #12 
              - What is your version of the Gaza geography?.........  kayecy   Apr-29-11 10:39 AM   #10 
                 - my version is based on facts on the ground-not paper  pelsar   Apr-29-11 11:09 AM   #11 
                    - Are you now going to claim that the GOI/IDF/Mossad do not control Gaza imports/exports? .........  kayecy   Apr-29-11 12:12 PM   #15 
                       - i have a poor imagination  pelsar   Apr-29-11 01:31 PM   #17 
                          - QED....Israel is operating a blockade against Gaza.......  kayecy   Apr-29-11 02:41 PM   #19 
                             - that only took 3 posts...  pelsar   Apr-29-11 05:30 PM   #20 
                                - Neither does a ridiculous "It always has to be pulled out as if uncomfortable" claim.....  kayecy   Apr-30-11 02:46 AM   #24 
                                   - but it always has to be "pulled out"  pelsar   Apr-30-11 03:13 AM   #26 
                                      - I could also claim the truth has at last been forced out of you..  kayecy   Apr-30-11 04:17 AM   #28 
                                         - "Prison"? Will Gaza still be a prison when Egypt permanently opens the border?  shira   Apr-30-11 05:17 AM   #30 
                                         - but you cant....i easily answer any questions and dont hide info  pelsar   Apr-30-11 05:38 AM   #32 
                                            - Israel is what?.....A state on a par with a dictatorship or a western liberal democracy?....  kayecy   Apr-30-11 06:30 AM   #35 
                                               - its 2011..remember the date.....  pelsar   Apr-30-11 06:48 AM   #36 
                                                  - My point was that people understand Egypt was a dictatorship .......  kayecy   Apr-30-11 07:53 AM   #38 
                                                     - egypt is also a sovereign independent country  pelsar   Apr-30-11 09:53 AM   #40 
                                                        - Which other democracy destroys houses as a collective punishment?.....  kayecy   Apr-30-11 02:31 PM   #42 
                                                        - know your history  pelsar   Apr-30-11 05:26 PM   #43 
                                                        - Do read my posts be before jumping to your own interpretation of the meaning .....  kayecy   May-01-11 12:31 AM   #45 
                                                        - the 21st century...  pelsar   May-01-11 07:26 AM   #49 
                                                        - You really only want to answer the questions which you would like me to ask!.......  kayecy   May-01-11 09:44 AM   #52 
                                                        - collective punishment?...its standard  pelsar   May-01-11 09:59 AM   #53 
                                                        - But I thought all Israeli wars were 'just wars'? ........  kayecy   May-01-11 10:52 AM   #56 
                                                        - sorry if i dont follow the PR line...  pelsar   May-01-11 11:07 AM   #57 
                                                        - I can't really believe you think violence and domination are acceptable  kayecy   May-01-11 11:31 AM   #60 
                                                        - fantasy vs reality  pelsar   May-01-11 12:32 PM   #62 
                                                        - I'm afraid you still don't understand my principles......  kayecy   May-01-11 01:30 PM   #64 
                                                        - i think i got it....  pelsar   May-07-11 04:54 AM   #67 
                                                        - You got it alright.  shira   May-07-11 05:48 AM   #69 
                                                        - Now, can you tell me exactly where you disagree with my philosophy?.........  kayecy   May-07-11 05:50 AM   #70 
                                                        - Your philosophy fails b/c there was no such thing as a referendum...  shira   May-07-11 06:07 AM   #72 
                                                        - I'm still wondering why you have no problem with Hashemites dominating the Palestinians of Jordan  shira   May-07-11 09:50 AM   #73 
                                                        - Is this discussion going anywhere?  oberliner   May-07-11 07:07 PM   #78 
                                                        - its the principle where we differ..  pelsar   May-07-11 05:09 PM   #77 
                                                        - It is indeed the principle where we differ....  kayecy   May-08-11 03:13 AM   #79 
                                                        - close but one aspect is still not clear  pelsar   May-08-11 04:48 AM   #80 
                                                        - I wonder why you keep accusing me of 'respecting' nasty cultures?.....  kayecy   May-08-11 10:58 AM   #82 
                                                        - Mideast regimes will not become liberal democracies on their own anytime soon  shira   May-08-11 12:08 PM   #83 
                                                        - the confusion is  pelsar   May-08-11 02:23 PM   #84 
                                                        - Yes, and so does the first article of the UN Charter:..........  kayecy   May-08-11 04:08 PM   #85 
                                                        - you miss the whole point of the zionism...  pelsar   May-10-11 02:48 AM   #86 
                                                        - We all know why the Zionists invaded Palestine....  kayecy   May-10-11 08:02 AM   #87 
                                                        - your asking if its legal and moral?  pelsar   May-10-11 12:22 PM   #89 
                                                        - Now we are getting to the crux of the matter........  kayecy   May-11-11 09:51 AM   #93 
                                                        - sorry for the slow response....  pelsar   May-14-11 03:00 PM   #94 
                                                        - The refuge of every scoundrel.......I accept the law except when the law doesnt suit me!.....  kayecy   May-15-11 11:53 AM   #97 
                                                        - You basic question is zionism moral.  pelsar   May-19-11 03:51 PM   #98 
                                                        - We are talking principles here....Lets apply your disrespect principle to the settlers .........  kayecy   May-20-11 06:44 AM   #99 
                                                        - colonialist  pelsar   May-20-11 09:58 AM   #100 
                                                        - You cant be serious....Had any of the Zionist immigrants ever been kicked out of Palestine?......  kayecy   May-20-11 03:24 PM   #101 
                                                        - back to morality  pelsar   May-29-11 04:51 PM   #102 
                                                        - Should new immigrants have the right to govern simply by claiming their culture is superior?....  kayecy   Jun-02-11 02:18 PM   #104 
                                                        - you have to ignore information and reality to make your point....  pelsar   Jun-02-11 03:36 PM   #105 
                                                        - I must have missed it....When did Israel offer the West Bank Palestinians Israeli democracy?.....  kayecy   Jun-03-11 11:29 AM   #106 
                                                        - shucks israel isn't a perfect democracy....  pelsar   Jun-04-11 08:09 AM   #107 
                                                        - Help me to understand where you are coming from:...................  kayecy   Jun-04-11 01:49 PM   #108 
                                                        - one doesn't have to be a zionist to prefer israeli democracy  pelsar   Jun-04-11 02:52 PM   #109 
                                                        - West-bank Arabs have been under Israeli rule for 40 years...Why hasnt Israel educated them?......  kayecy   Jun-06-11 11:52 AM   #110 
                                                        - usually your pretty good with your knowledge but not here.  pelsar   Jun-07-11 09:25 AM   #111 
                                                        - Calm down!........You would have a much more effective argument if you produced a few hard facts....  kayecy   Jun-08-11 09:14 AM   #112 
                                                        - this is kind of i'm just going to stick to a few points  pelsar   Jun-13-11 03:49 PM   #113 
                                                        - If it is RIGHT for you to kill your sister, then it is also RIGHT for her to kill you (or me) .....  kayecy   Jun-17-11 06:53 AM   #114 
                                                        - Kayecy, since you think 1948 was so unjust would you say you're against a 2-state solution?  shira   Jun-21-11 04:51 PM   #115 
                                                        - Pelsar......I see you are on-line today....Would care to continue our little debate?..  kayecy   Jul-16-11 08:47 AM   #116 
                                                        - It's not much of a debate when you refuse to answer questions, deflect, evade... n/t  shira   Jul-16-11 10:08 AM   #117 
                                                        - starting with the simple...  pelsar   Jul-16-11 04:16 PM   #118 
                                                        - Thank you for being willing to take up this subject again....  kayecy   Jul-21-11 03:38 PM   #120 
                                                        - listen to your wife....  pelsar   Jul-22-11 09:01 AM   #121 
                                                        - You spent so much time on your theory that you forgot the most important question.......  kayecy   Jul-23-11 11:01 AM   #122 
                                                        - the imperfection of zionism and western democracies  pelsar   Jul-23-11 02:03 PM   #123 
                                                        - Are we getting close to changing the IP dynamic?.........  kayecy   Jul-24-11 05:34 AM   #125 
                                                        - what do they say about fools  pelsar   Jul-25-11 11:42 AM   #126 
                                                        - Pre-WW1 Zionists knew that attempting to achieve a majority in Palestine was a near-impossibility...  kayecy   Jul-28-11 12:51 PM   #127 
                                                        - Interesting discussion.  Shaktimaan   Aug-02-11 01:12 AM   #128 
                                                        - Shaktimaan - see my comments on "6 in 10 Palestinians reject 2-state solution" - by SHIRA  kayecy   Aug-02-11 06:51 AM   #129 
                                                        - come can't be serious  pelsar   Aug-06-11 12:26 PM   #130 
                                                        - I am sorry if I misunderstood you, but what exactly did you mean?......  kayecy   Aug-11-11 02:43 PM   #131 
                                                        - just for clarification...  pelsar   Jul-24-11 12:18 AM   #124 
                                                        - an additional thought...  pelsar   Jul-17-11 11:33 PM   #119 
                                                        - are israeli arabs "immoral"....  pelsar   May-15-11 05:31 AM   #95 
                                                        - In addition, Pelsar...  shira   May-15-11 10:02 AM   #96 
                                                        - continued Israeli sovereignty is crucial  Never Stop Dancin   May-29-11 06:32 PM   #103 
                                                        - Collective punishment is never acceptable, except for BDS vs. Israel and its citizens. n/t  shira   May-08-11 09:42 AM   #81 

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