Violet_Crumble
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Thu Mar-17-11 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #185 |
| 186. It most certainly did address that. You just don't seem to want to understand... |
|
Your post doesn't address the fact that about 13000 E.J. Arabs are Israeli citizens...
...for whom the building freeze does not apply.
Arab Israeli citizens are free to build.
Jews not so much.
Seeing as how you yet again ignored what was right in front of you, here it is yet again. Read it, and if you don't understand it, explain what it is about it you don't understand.
'I keep on explaining that the Resolution isn't about private ownership of land, but about Israel controlling the ownership of that land with building permits and other forms of control. I don't understand why you keep on repeating the same thing again and again in response. Is it because you don't understand the control Israel has over any building and demolition processes?'
and I even bolded the last two paragraphs, yet you still appear not to have read them.
The Resolution isn't about private ownership of property. The Resolution is about Israel asserting its sovereignty and its own population onto occupied territory. Here's a link you provided to the text of the Resolution. I assumed at the time you'd paused and read the Resolution, but it appears you haven't, as anyone who'd read it wouldn't be trying to claim it's about refusing private ownership only to Jews. The Resolution specifically states that it's calling for the state of Israel to cease serttlement activity in occupied territory, including East Jerusalem and to abide by international law. The Resolution has absolutely nothing to do with the religion or ethnicity of individuals, and I consider the wording of the Resolution to be so clear and understandable that attempts to claim it was about anything else are verging on disingeuous.
Israel, as the occupying power, has the same responsibility in East Jerusalem as any other occupying power would have. It's illegal for the occupying power to destroy or take over homes of civilians in order to change the demographics of the area it's occupying. Do you understand that it's about the occupying power, not about some stinking rich extremist millionaire who pours his millions into the settlements? Israel is the power that controls building permits and it's responsible for ensuring that civilians aren't put out of their homes, or that the nature of the occupied territory isn't changed. Moskowitz can go and build in Israel. He can't do it in the occupied territories, or just turn up anywhere apart from the US or Israel and start building wherever or however he wants. If you think he should have the right to do that, please explain why you think he should get special treatment that no-one else would get.
I really do suggest that repeating the same thing you've already said and been corrected on, that if you don't understand what I've told you, let me know what exactly it is that you don't understand so I can try to explain it to you in a way you'll end up understanding...
|
| -U.S. condemns terrorist attack in West Bank settlement |
oberliner |
Mar-12-11 11:37 AM |
#0 |
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Deleted sub-thread |
Name removed |
Mar-12-11 11:54 AM |
#1 |
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same as I been saying Hillary |
BetsysGhost |
Mar-12-11 11:56 AM |
#2 |
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I wonder why the murder of Rachel Corrie and the slaughter of ... |
Johnny_dollar |
Mar-12-11 12:33 PM |
#6 |
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When the Israelis murdered................ |
Knight Hawk |
Mar-12-11 02:29 PM |
#10 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-12-11 03:45 PM |
#17 |
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Calling them "murders" begs the question |
speltwon |
Mar-12-11 10:01 PM |
#19 |
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If they do not know who did it, how do they know it was a terrorist?? |
Angry Dragon |
Mar-12-11 12:01 PM |
#3 |
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Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claims responsibility |
oberliner |
Mar-12-11 12:10 PM |
#4 |
  -
Thank you |
Angry Dragon |
Mar-12-11 12:21 PM |
#5 |
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If you are not 100% pro ................. |
Knight Hawk |
Mar-12-11 02:34 PM |
#12 |
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No - if you slit children's throats while they are sleeping then you are a terrorist |
oberliner |
Mar-12-11 02:38 PM |
#13 |
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American Crickets |
TomClash |
Mar-12-11 01:48 PM |
#7 |
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Nothing about stabbing a 3 month old baby to death in that link |
oberliner |
Mar-12-11 02:08 PM |
#8 |
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. . . |
TomClash |
Mar-12-11 03:36 PM |
#15 |
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That shirt thing is BS |
oberliner |
Mar-13-11 08:42 AM |
#21 |
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You mean the IDF t-shirt thing is a hoax? If so, can you prove it? n/t |
shira |
Mar-14-11 04:03 PM |
#54 |
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The baby's throat was cut |
VermeerLives |
Mar-13-11 05:44 PM |
#28 |
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Yes. Was nothing in the link worth condemnation at least? |
No Elephants |
Mar-13-11 06:02 PM |
#29 |
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There are lots of incidents worth condeming |
oberliner |
Mar-14-11 06:57 AM |
#34 |
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the link is from march 2 the attacks happened march 12 |
azurnoir |
Mar-14-11 06:49 PM |
#95 |
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Too bad Hilary |
Scottybeamer70 |
Mar-12-11 02:26 PM |
#9 |
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Hillary sold out |
TomClash |
Mar-12-11 03:17 PM |
#14 |
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The Senate race that she won by over 30 percentage points? |
oberliner |
Mar-12-11 03:38 PM |
#16 |
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You bet! |
TomClash |
Mar-12-11 08:25 PM |
#18 |
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You don't think she would have won otherwise? |
oberliner |
Mar-13-11 08:37 AM |
#20 |
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I'm talking about 2000 not 2006 |
TomClash |
Mar-13-11 11:31 AM |
#25 |
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What do Jewish voters have to do with anything? |
oberliner |
Mar-14-11 06:24 AM |
#33 |
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An astonishing question |
TomClash |
Mar-14-11 09:33 AM |
#36 |
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You have no idea what you are talking about |
oberliner |
Mar-14-11 09:51 AM |
#37 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-14-11 09:56 AM |
#38 |
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Sorry - but you are just way off base on this one |
oberliner |
Mar-14-11 10:58 AM |
#39 |
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More American Crickets |
TomClash |
Mar-12-11 02:33 PM |
#11 |
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There are extremists on both sides and your point of your posts is...? |
wordpix |
Mar-13-11 10:28 AM |
#22 |
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Here are your statistics - from Btselem I will let you draw your own conclusions |
Agony |
Mar-13-11 10:54 AM |
#23 |
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. . . your point of the posts is?" |
TomClash |
Mar-13-11 11:02 AM |
#24 |
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Yes, BOTH sides. |
No Elephants |
Mar-13-11 06:09 PM |
#30 |
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nope, no bias here... |
fascisthunter |
Mar-13-11 12:00 PM |
#26 |
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This is horrific |
VermeerLives |
Mar-13-11 05:41 PM |
#27 |
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will Keith Ellison cry over murders thousands of miles away? |
azurnoir |
Mar-13-11 06:47 PM |
#31 |
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The village was Rafah |
oberliner |
Mar-14-11 06:20 AM |
#32 |
   -
well thanks gee but if you read my post then you |
azurnoir |
Mar-14-11 07:31 AM |
#35 |
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Rafah is 30 kilometers south of Gaza |
oberliner |
Mar-14-11 11:00 AM |
#40 |
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and your point is? |
azurnoir |
Mar-14-11 11:20 AM |
#41 |
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You were asking for the specific town where this happened |
oberliner |
Mar-14-11 11:50 AM |
#42 |
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please post a link to them I would like to see them |
azurnoir |
Mar-14-11 12:08 PM |
#43 |
  -
Ok - here ya go |
oberliner |
Mar-14-11 03:06 PM |
#44 |
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your claim was photo's fromAP these came from a link |
azurnoir |
Mar-14-11 03:27 PM |
#45 |
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No idea what you are talking about |
oberliner |
Mar-14-11 03:41 PM |
#49 |
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Even if these photos were from AP, no-one knows the context they were taken in... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 03:43 PM |
#51 |
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Of course they do |
oberliner |
Mar-15-11 08:54 AM |
#146 |
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No, they don't. How do you know the photographer is correct? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-15-11 09:08 PM |
#149 |
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Yes, they do |
oberliner |
Mar-15-11 10:40 PM |
#156 |
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You don't know that the photographer has captioned it properly... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-15-11 10:51 PM |
#157 |
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Email the photographer if you are curious |
oberliner |
Mar-16-11 07:55 AM |
#171 |
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I'm not curious. I explained to you why caution needs to be taken... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-16-11 04:58 PM |
#175 |
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I assume that the AFP isn't going to run a photo caption that is fabricated |
oberliner |
Mar-16-11 05:14 PM |
#178 |
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You should also assume that they wouldn't do so intentionally... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-16-11 05:34 PM |
#179 |
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Obie, nothing is as it seems and facts aren't facts if they don't conform to the narrative. n/t |
shira |
Mar-16-11 04:56 AM |
#166 |
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here is the link |
azurnoir |
Mar-14-11 03:38 PM |
#48 |
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You read that quite frequently? |
oberliner |
Mar-14-11 03:42 PM |
#50 |
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I asked because one context is missing , the dates are the ones |
azurnoir |
Mar-14-11 03:48 PM |
#53 |
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So what if the photos have a date? Did you read what I said only a post or so back? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 04:10 PM |
#56 |
   -
hi Vi |
azurnoir |
Mar-14-11 04:23 PM |
#58 |
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Hi Az... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 04:31 PM |
#61 |
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thanks n/t |
azurnoir |
Mar-14-11 04:34 PM |
#63 |
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Well you could write to the photographer to get more context |
oberliner |
Mar-15-11 08:51 AM |
#144 |
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why did you leave out the preceding sentence? and a goodly peice of the one you posted ? |
azurnoir |
Mar-14-11 03:44 PM |
#52 |
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Someone left out the City? I don't know what that means |
oberliner |
Mar-15-11 08:51 AM |
#145 |
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Moreover, did Steve King ever cry over anyone who was murdered by the Irish Republican Army |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 08:52 PM |
#105 |
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What does Keith Ellison have to do with it? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 03:36 PM |
#47 |
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There's no way Keith Ellison deserved that slam |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 05:20 PM |
#71 |
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Everyone condemns that act. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 03:28 PM |
#46 |
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Palestinians & many Righwing "Leftists" are having trouble condemning it as morally repugnant... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 04:10 PM |
#55 |
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Where do you come up with that claim about Palestinians from? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 04:23 PM |
#57 |
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I think so. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 04:29 PM |
#60 |
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It's actually 97% of Palestinians with negative antisemitic views of Jews... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 04:31 PM |
#62 |
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Have you got a link to the poll itself so I can see the questions? I couldn't track it down... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 05:01 PM |
#68 |
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See page 23 here... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 05:26 PM |
#72 |
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How do you know they're not conflating Jews with Israel? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 05:35 PM |
#74 |
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Wow, that's pretty desperate. 35% of Arabs within Israel expressed negative antisemitic views |
shira |
Mar-14-11 05:42 PM |
#76 |
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Not at all desperate. How do you know they're not doing exactly what you do? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 05:55 PM |
#77 |
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So you doubt the conclusions of the PEW pollsters? |
shira |
Mar-14-11 05:57 PM |
#79 |
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Are you incapable of what I just posted? Why ask stupid questions that make no sense? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 06:01 PM |
#81 |
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So the 35% of Arabs within Israel knew not to conflate, as opposed to all other Arabs polled? |
shira |
Mar-14-11 06:06 PM |
#82 |
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It makes sense that Israeli-Arabs would feel more positive towards Israel... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 06:13 PM |
#84 |
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The PEW folks claim 97% of Palestinians have negative views of Jews. |
shira |
Mar-14-11 06:18 PM |
#86 |
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And I pointed out the possibility of conflating Jews with Israel... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 06:22 PM |
#88 |
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You have no evidence about that "possibility", got it? Maybe you should write to PEW... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 06:25 PM |
#90 |
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You have no evidence that it's not the case... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 06:33 PM |
#92 |
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It's impossible to disprove a negative. Try again. |
shira |
Mar-14-11 06:56 PM |
#97 |
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I'm not the one who was demanding proof of something... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 07:00 PM |
#99 |
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Since you believe the possibility exists WRT conflating Jews/Israel, you don't trust PEW findings? |
shira |
Mar-14-11 07:16 PM |
#100 |
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I really don't understand yr question.... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 07:19 PM |
#101 |
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PEW claims 97% of Palestinians hold negative antisemitic views of Jews. Fact or fiction to you? |
shira |
Mar-14-11 07:22 PM |
#102 |
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What bits of what I've been patiently explaining to you isn't sinking in? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 07:31 PM |
#103 |
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You claim you're not questioning the credibility of the poll, but you most certainly are. |
shira |
Mar-14-11 08:55 PM |
#106 |
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No, I'm not and I explained why very clearly.... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 08:58 PM |
#107 |
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So you don't think PEW took your concern bout conflating into consideration... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 09:06 PM |
#109 |
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They sure didn't include it in the questions. Did you even bother reading the questions? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 09:13 PM |
#111 |
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No. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 09:55 PM |
#122 |
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I sentence you to 10 hours of watching PLO/Hamas incitement at PMW and MEMRI... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 09:59 PM |
#124 |
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But you don't distinguish between Jews and Israel either, Shira... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 10:03 PM |
#128 |
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Prove it then. n/t |
shira |
Mar-16-11 05:00 AM |
#167 |
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Prove that you conflate Jews and Israel? Are you for real? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-16-11 05:01 PM |
#176 |
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Even that wasn't conflating because it is about Jews... |
shira |
Mar-17-11 03:23 PM |
#180 |
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The draft resolution was about Israel. You conflated the terms... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-17-11 03:42 PM |
#181 |
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E.Jerusalem Arab Israeli citizens (about 13,000) can build whenever and whatever... |
shira |
Mar-17-11 06:32 PM |
#182 |
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You conflated Israel and Jews. The Resolution was about Israel... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-17-11 06:38 PM |
#183 |
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Your post doesn't address the fact that about 13000 E.J. Arabs are Israeli citizens... |
shira |
Mar-17-11 06:44 PM |
#185 |
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It most certainly did address that. You just don't seem to want to understand... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-17-11 07:04 PM |
#186 |
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Pew, is with good reason, one of the most respected entities that conducts polling |
cali |
Mar-16-11 09:06 AM |
#172 |
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If they are just asked about "Jews", and given no distinctions in the poll between |
Ken Burch |
Mar-16-11 03:07 PM |
#174 |
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I'm not saying they're stupid at all... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-16-11 05:03 PM |
#177 |
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You can't seriously believe some Palestinians don't know the difference b/w the nation of Israel... |
shira |
Mar-17-11 06:42 PM |
#184 |
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No, because that's not what I was saying.... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-17-11 07:14 PM |
#187 |
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No. Virtually all condemn it. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 04:26 PM |
#59 |
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Not the ones who dehumanize all settlers and therefore encourage Palestinian terrorism. n/t |
shira |
Mar-14-11 04:34 PM |
#64 |
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Opposing the settlements isn't the same as dehumanizing the settlers |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 04:37 PM |
#65 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-14-11 04:46 PM |
#66 |
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Those words are fair comment on the settlers |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 04:56 PM |
#67 |
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Really? Even settlers whose family owned land there prior to 1948? Also... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 05:02 PM |
#69 |
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That poll is bogus and means nothing. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 05:07 PM |
#70 |
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The poll can be viewed by anyone interested in post #72 above. Why do you think it's bogus? Also.. |
shira |
Mar-14-11 05:29 PM |
#73 |
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Ken should refuse to answer any of yr 'questions' until you agree to answer questions yr asked... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 05:38 PM |
#75 |
  -
Does that go for you too, or are you exempt from answering my questions? n/t |
shira |
Mar-14-11 05:55 PM |
#78 |
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Don't try changing the subject. Just answer some of the questions you get asked for a change... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 05:59 PM |
#80 |
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I'm all for answering your questions if/when you answer mine. Deal? n/t |
shira |
Mar-14-11 06:08 PM |
#83 |
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Just answer the questions you've been asked. It's not that difficult thing to do... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 06:16 PM |
#85 |
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So you want me to answer you while you continue to evade my questions? |
shira |
Mar-14-11 06:21 PM |
#87 |
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I want you to answer the questions you get asked for a change... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 06:28 PM |
#91 |
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Answers. Now your turn... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 06:35 PM |
#93 |
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See? There was no need to make things so difficult... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 06:42 PM |
#94 |
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Hmm, you don't know. So tell me, people working for Arutz Sheva and spewing the party line there... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 06:50 PM |
#96 |
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That's right. I don't know because I'm not familiar with them or what they've written... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 06:56 PM |
#98 |
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A reply to Shira's response to this from another thread... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-15-11 09:45 PM |
#154 |
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It is entirely possible. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 10:17 PM |
#136 |
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Here's a simple question: In what language was the poll conducted? |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 08:50 PM |
#104 |
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Yes, there must be something wrong with the PEW poll... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 08:59 PM |
#108 |
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Why is it so vitally important to you to portray Palestinians so negatively? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 09:08 PM |
#110 |
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Pointing to the effects of relentless state-sponsored PLO/Hamas incitement radicalizing Palestinians |
shira |
Mar-14-11 09:34 PM |
#112 |
  -
You didn't answer my question. You just kept on repeating the same stuff as before... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 09:41 PM |
#116 |
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I'm not hostile WRT your questions, just amazed at the mental acrobatics you're going through... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 09:57 PM |
#123 |
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Sorry, but you've been very hostile towards any close examination... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 10:01 PM |
#126 |
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Not hostile but amused. Tell me, do the 35% of Israeli Arabs who hate Israelis hate themselves? |
shira |
Mar-14-11 10:09 PM |
#130 |
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Sorry, but I just came from a post where you express outright hostility... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 10:16 PM |
#135 |
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Why would respondents confuse Israelis with Jews? There are 2 different Arabic terms distinguishing |
shira |
Mar-15-11 05:02 AM |
#143 |
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You should be able to answer that question, seeing you also do it... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-15-11 09:31 PM |
#151 |
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Please answer the questions asked of you. |
shira |
Mar-16-11 03:45 AM |
#161 |
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I answered yr question. It's what you replied to... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-16-11 04:18 AM |
#162 |
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No you haven't and claiming you did when you didn't is also not answering me. |
shira |
Mar-16-11 04:49 AM |
#165 |
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I answered you in post 151, even though you refuse to answer a question I asked you elsewhere... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-16-11 06:55 AM |
#170 |
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She thinks the PEW poll totally vindicates the "stall for time and keep building settlements" thing |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 09:40 PM |
#115 |
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Is that true about Israeli and Jew being the same in Arabic? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 09:44 PM |
#118 |
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The crucial question is how the poll was phrased in Arabic. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 09:53 PM |
#120 |
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Right, best to assume PEW did it wrong. n/t |
shira |
Mar-14-11 10:00 PM |
#125 |
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It really does offend you that 97% of Palestinians may not be raving antisemites... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 10:05 PM |
#129 |
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LOL...and 35% of Israeli Arabs hate themselves according to the way the poll was maybe conducted... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 10:11 PM |
#132 |
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I wish you'd stop misrepresenting what my view is... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 10:19 PM |
#137 |
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Let's go slowly. Do you have a problem w/ PEW claiming 35% of Israeli Arabs have antisemitic views? |
shira |
Mar-15-11 04:36 AM |
#142 |
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Here are the poll results showing 84% Palestinian support for terror on a Jewish High School |
shira |
Mar-15-11 08:27 PM |
#148 |
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Why are you talking to yrself? It looks really bizarre! |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-15-11 09:34 PM |
#153 |
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Please answer questions asked of you. Let me know when you want to have a real conversation. n/t |
shira |
Mar-16-11 03:34 AM |
#159 |
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You didn't ask me a question. You replied to yr own post and asked yrself... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-16-11 04:25 AM |
#163 |
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I have a problem with you falsely claiming Pew claimed something it didn't |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-15-11 09:33 PM |
#152 |
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Come on now. If people have negative views of all Muslims, that doesn't mean they're bigoted... |
shira |
Mar-16-11 03:38 AM |
#160 |
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You made a false claim. The poll didn't mention antisemitism. You did... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-16-11 04:29 AM |
#164 |
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Yes, just negative views about Jews, which doesn't = antisemitism in your view. |
shira |
Mar-16-11 05:02 AM |
#168 |
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Why are you totally ignoring what I said to you? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-16-11 06:48 AM |
#169 |
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No. It would be valid to state that 35% of Israeli Arabs have negative feelings |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 10:21 PM |
#138 |
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LOL, so if you have negative feelings toward all Muslims you're not necessarily a hateful bigot? |
shira |
Mar-16-11 03:21 AM |
#158 |
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"negative feelings" is an amorphous term |
Ken Burch |
Mar-16-11 03:04 PM |
#173 |
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Best to assume that the question doesn't necessarily prove what YOU think it proves |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 10:16 PM |
#134 |
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What is the basis for your claim that Arabic uses the same word for "Israelis" as "Jews" ? |
oberliner |
Mar-15-11 09:39 AM |
#147 |
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The term "Yahood" is often used interchangeably for both. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-15-11 09:21 PM |
#150 |
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Can you tell me your source for that? |
oberliner |
Mar-15-11 10:39 PM |
#155 |
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I just showed the fatal flaw in the methadology |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 09:34 PM |
#113 |
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Amazing how PEW doesn't know to do that... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 09:40 PM |
#114 |
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Actually, that WOULD be a good thing to do. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 09:44 PM |
#117 |
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Pretty weak, Ken. PEW has been asking these questions for years now... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 09:52 PM |
#119 |
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On this issue, it is entirely possible that they don't |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 09:53 PM |
#121 |
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You know PEW asked the same question of Egyptians, Lebanese, Jordanians, etc... |
shira |
Mar-14-11 10:02 PM |
#127 |
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If they're conflating Israel and Jews, that's an understandable response... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 10:09 PM |
#131 |
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Racist? I wouldn't go that far. Biased? entirely possible. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 10:15 PM |
#133 |
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I actually know very little about PEW... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 10:26 PM |
#139 |
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Wish I could join you, Violet |
Ken Burch |
Mar-14-11 10:31 PM |
#140 |
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Thanks, Ken... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-14-11 10:38 PM |
#141 |
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What is the source for your claim that settlers are overwhelmingly American immigrants? |
oberliner |
Mar-14-11 06:24 PM |
#89 |