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Reply #58: admittedly this is my own anecdotal experience [View All]

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. admittedly this is my own anecdotal experience
Edited on Sat Mar-06-10 11:31 PM by Douglas Carpenter
And not a scientific study, by any means. However having spent a great deal of my life in the Middle East, I have talked to a lot of Palestinians. I cannot even begin to guess how many. I would say that almost all would agree in principle with a full right of return. However, there is always a difference between what most people believe as a matter of principle and what one believes is realistic and plausible.

For that matter all the world's leading human rights organizations support the right of return. And In spite of efforts to explain it away, UN General Assembly Resolution 194 of December 11, 1948 really is quite clear:

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

However Palestinian, at least the vast majority are realist. The ones I have talked to understand full well that a fully implemented full right of return is not plausible. They do understand that compensation, resettlement in third countries for those who need and want such assistance, a certain negotiated number resettled inside of Israel, resettlement of those who wish so inside a new Palestinian state and a public acknowledgment by the State of Israel of the injustice done to them - This is the realistic and pragmatic hope to which most aspire.

There is also an awareness that with international humanitarian law and U.N. General Assembly resolutions on the side of right of return, this is a huge bargaining chip which can be employed to address other issues.

Even the Arab Peace Plan which has been endorsed by all 22 members of the Arab League and 57 members of the Organization of Islamic conference states:

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

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  - A Debate on BDS with Omar Barghouti and Rabbi Arthur Waskow Douglas Carpenter  Mar-04-10 03:05 PM   #0 
  - Before some mod locks this because over 4-5 paragraphs of copyright stuff might be risky, DN! is CC  ConsAreLiars   Mar-05-10 12:55 AM   #1 
  - That's a really good interview...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-05-10 04:39 AM   #2 
  - It's interesting that the part you thought is true is total bullshit.  aranthus   Mar-05-10 10:07 AM   #3 
     - Ze'ev Jabotinsky stated way back in 1922 that Zionism was above all a colonizing movement  Douglas Carpenter   Mar-05-10 11:51 AM   #6 
     - you ignore arab nationalism..  pelsar   Mar-05-10 12:02 PM   #7 
     - most Palestinians of Israeli citizenship do want full equal rights  Douglas Carpenter   Mar-05-10 12:17 PM   #9 
        - of course Israeli arabs want an improvement on the civil rights...but as israel defines it  pelsar   Mar-05-10 01:15 PM   #13 
           - Lot's of American Whites felt the same way in the 1960's  azurnoir   Mar-06-10 12:23 AM   #36 
              - no, the Palestinians nor israeli arabs are not like the KKK as you are insinuating  pelsar   Mar-06-10 02:01 AM   #38 
                 - Somehow I don't think your quite understanding  azurnoir   Mar-06-10 11:57 AM   #44 
     - You have to take the movement as a package,  aranthus   Mar-05-10 12:15 PM   #8 
        - I support the right of return because I understand what it is...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-05-10 03:33 PM   #14 
           - How to spell definitely  oberliner   Mar-05-10 03:38 PM   #15 
           - More spelling flames? Pretty lame, Obie...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-05-10 03:44 PM   #16 
              - Wow. How bizarre.  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-07-10 07:36 AM   #66 
                 - Clearly correct spelling is more important than key issues in the conflict to some  Violet_Crumble   Mar-07-10 09:05 PM   #84 
           - No, you pretend what it is.  aranthus   Mar-05-10 04:34 PM   #17 
              - No, yr the one who sat there and pretended something was said that wasn't...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-05-10 04:40 PM   #18 
              - What's interesting is your response to shira's post  aranthus   Mar-05-10 06:28 PM   #28 
                 - Barghouti doesn't get to define what right of return means...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-05-10 09:06 PM   #32 
                    - Just the opposite.  aranthus   Mar-05-10 11:46 PM   #34 
                       - No, I'm not defining it and you clearly haven't bothered reading the OP properly...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-06-10 04:37 PM   #49 
                          - Do you even read what you post?  aranthus   Mar-06-10 06:59 PM   #52 
                             - I most definately do...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-06-10 07:08 PM   #53 
                                - Then perhaps you didn't read the top of the subthread.  aranthus   Mar-13-10 01:13 AM   #97 
              - Here's Omar Barghouti on RoR and his solution to the conflict  shira   Mar-05-10 04:51 PM   #21 
                 - I now support one binational and secular state with a full physical right of return...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-05-10 05:00 PM   #22 
                 - figures  shira   Mar-05-10 05:20 PM   #23 
                 - It shouldn't come as a shock to you as you always falsely accused me of doing so..  Violet_Crumble   Mar-05-10 05:24 PM   #24 
                    - good for you  shira   Mar-05-10 05:39 PM   #25 
                       - It is. Supporting equal rights for all and secularism is so empowering! n/t  Violet_Crumble   Mar-05-10 05:50 PM   #26 
                 - Then you support never-ending conflict.....  proteus_lives   Mar-05-10 09:18 PM   #33 
                    - No, actually, I don't... n/t  Violet_Crumble   Mar-06-10 04:39 PM   #50 
                    - This discussion is so illuminating.  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-07-10 07:41 AM   #67 
                 - Thanks for posting this.  aranthus   Mar-05-10 06:25 PM   #27 
                 - And what do you find so interesting about my response?  Violet_Crumble   Mar-05-10 08:11 PM   #29 
                    - Because instead of admitting the truth or refutting it  aranthus   Mar-05-10 08:29 PM   #30 
                       - Sorry, but what's this truth I'm supposed to be admitting?  Violet_Crumble   Mar-05-10 08:50 PM   #31 
                          - Two things  aranthus   Mar-06-10 12:16 AM   #35 
                             - The vast majority of Palestinians want full RoR and here's evidence  shira   Mar-06-10 05:54 AM   #40 
                             - I need to amend my statement.  aranthus   Mar-06-10 01:08 PM   #47 
                             - You do realise that what Shira linked to wasn't true at all?  Violet_Crumble   Mar-06-10 07:11 PM   #54 
                             - A blog post on ZIO-NATION is evidence of Palestinian beliefs and intentions? Only in your mind.  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-07-10 07:45 AM   #68 
                             - I totally disagree with both points...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-06-10 04:55 PM   #51 
                                - admittedly this is my own anecdotal experience  Douglas Carpenter   Mar-06-10 11:29 PM   #58 
                                   - I am interested in the way Israel's supporters interpret this. What are they afraid of?  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-07-10 07:50 AM   #69 
                                      - Poll from 2003 suggests that 100s of 1000s would move to Israel from Lebanon, Jordan, and  oberliner   Mar-07-10 09:09 AM   #70 
                                         - so roughly 150,000 refugees or 40% want to return to Israel in order not to live in peace  shira   Mar-07-10 10:32 AM   #71 
                                         - Well, the Israeli gov't manages many more illegal, non-law abiding settlers. Piece of cake! nt  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-07-10 11:51 AM   #72 
                                         - So Oberliner, can you spell out what about that data frightens you so? nt  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-07-10 11:51 AM   #73 
                                            - "Said that they would not respect applicable Israeli law and would not live in peace in Israel"  oberliner   Mar-07-10 01:49 PM   #75 
                                               - What does that even mean?  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-07-10 02:58 PM   #76 
                                               - Here is the question  oberliner   Mar-07-10 03:44 PM   #80 
                 - Editing to change the meaning again Shira  azurnoir   Mar-06-10 12:33 AM   #37 
                    - another baseless accusation by you....what was taken out of context?  shira   Mar-06-10 05:59 AM   #41 
                       - so you are against a Democratic state  azurnoir   Mar-06-10 10:58 AM   #43 
                          - an election that puts the PLO or Hamas into power in one democratic Israelstine would be disastrous  shira   Mar-06-10 12:06 PM   #45 
                             - But there's extremists in power in Israel right now and it's still a democracy...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-06-10 07:24 PM   #55 
                             - you "don't consider the PA to be extremist like Lieberman and co are..."  shira   Mar-06-10 07:58 PM   #56 
                                - Actually, the PA isn't extremist...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-06-10 08:06 PM   #57 
                                   - the PLO/Fatah is very extremist  shira   Mar-07-10 05:51 AM   #60 
                                      - The PA is not extremist...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-07-10 06:03 AM   #61 
                                      - Read the link in that last post about Arafat and Abbas' legacy in Lebanon  shira   Mar-07-10 06:10 AM   #62 
                                         - And yet again you've totally ignored the question you were asked  Violet_Crumble   Mar-07-10 06:12 AM   #63 
                                            - the answer - which should be obvious to you  shira   Mar-07-10 06:47 AM   #64 
                                            - How about answering the question you were asked...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-07-10 06:56 AM   #65 
                                      - So based on that are you against any peace talks  azurnoir   Mar-07-10 03:32 PM   #79 
                                      - They did NOTHING compared to what extremist-led Israel did in Lebanon.  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-07-10 04:49 PM   #81 
                                         - Lebanese people committed this massacre nt  oberliner   Mar-07-10 07:56 PM   #82 
                                            - The IDF allowed them into the camp knowing full well what they'd do..  Violet_Crumble   Mar-07-10 09:01 PM   #83 
                                            - My point is that Shira needs a reality check.  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-08-10 05:53 AM   #85 
                                               - Phalangists and Palestinians had been massacring each other in Lebanon well before 1982  oberliner   Mar-09-10 07:25 AM   #87 
                                               - it is not arguable that the IDF allowed the Phalangist into the two camps knowing full well what  Douglas Carpenter   Mar-09-10 10:16 AM   #89 
                                               - Oberliner seems to prefer Shira's version of history. nt  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-09-10 10:32 AM   #90 
                                               - Tell me your version of 1976 in Lebanon  oberliner   Mar-09-10 12:19 PM   #91 
                                               - No argument here  oberliner   Mar-09-10 12:20 PM   #92 
                                               - I believe that in this, case the term - LIHOP (Let it happen on purpose)  Douglas Carpenter   Mar-09-10 12:46 PM   #93 
                             - Many Afrikaners said similar things n/t  azurnoir   Mar-07-10 03:31 PM   #78 
                             - Its interesting how often your arguments  FarrenH   Mar-09-10 04:12 AM   #86 
     - No, it's not total bullshit...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-06-10 04:33 PM   #48 
     - Damn, you really need a reality check, or something.  ConsAreLiars   Mar-07-10 01:21 AM   #59 
  - Not a real debate at all.  aranthus   Mar-05-10 10:36 AM   #4 
  - the most interesting paragraph....  pelsar   Mar-05-10 11:14 AM   #5 
  - Maybe I'm misunderstanding the Rabbi,  aranthus   Mar-05-10 12:22 PM   #10 
  - of course demonizing Israel is the point and the goal is to eliminate Israel  shira   Mar-05-10 12:40 PM   #11 
     - True.  aranthus   Mar-05-10 01:09 PM   #12 
  - So interesting that you guys feel "demonized" by this.  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-07-10 03:00 PM   #77 
  - Pelsar, can you think of a more effective way to motivate Israeli citizens to change the status quo?  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-09-10 01:52 PM   #94 
     - and israeli institutions.....  pelsar   Mar-12-10 04:00 PM   #96 
  - Middle East Peace: Ground Truths, Challenges Ahead,  Violet_Crumble   Mar-05-10 04:42 PM   #19 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Mar-05-10 04:50 PM   #20 
  - that should be read by everyone here...  pelsar   Mar-06-10 02:20 AM   #39 
  - agreed - it is a good article  shira   Mar-06-10 06:20 AM   #42 
  - I particularly like the calls to end to the siege, and to "allow" Palestinian reconciliation. nt  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-07-10 12:07 PM   #74 
  - Very interesting article...  LeftishBrit   Mar-06-10 12:38 PM   #46 
  - Having listened to the entire podcast... the Rabbi never addresses the primary stumbling block to  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-09-10 09:30 AM   #88 
     - I would really love to discuss the Rabbi's position, if anyone here shares it! nt  ProgressiveMuslim   Mar-10-10 11:14 AM   #95 

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