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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-15-09 09:36 AM
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UN probe: evidence of war crimes in Gaza conflict
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Edited on Tue Sep-15-09 10:33 AM by Scurrilous

"A U.N. investigation into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in Gaza has found evidence that both sides committed "war crimes."

The United Nations says the investigation led by former South African judge Richard Goldstone concluded that "Israel committed actions amounting to war crimes, possibly crimes against humanity," during its Dec. 27-Jan. 18 military operations in the Palestinian territories.

The global body said the report released Tuesday "concludes there is also evidence that Palestinian armed groups committed war crimes, as well as possibly crimes against humanity," by firing rockets into southern Israel.

Israel refused to cooperate with the investigation, saying the U.N. Human Rights Council that ordered it was biased against the Jewish state."

Full Report

Judge Goldstone and the pollution of argument

Attacks on human rights groups that probe Israel's Gaza offensive are an insult to reasonable public debate


"The despicable attacks on human rights organisations investigating Israel's Gaza offensive in January confirm Churchill's observation: "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." The mission led by the South African judge Richard Goldstone to investigate international human rights and international humanitarian law violations during Israel's offensive, established by the UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC), is the latest victim. His findings are about to be made public. The knives have been out for the mission for months. Now they are being plunged into him and his colleagues. Until the report is out Goldstone can't defend it. So the smears and misrepresentation are left free to pollute public discourse.

The New York-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) has assiduously responded to a deluge of scurrilous attacks on its credibility and staff, yet totally unfounded allegations for example, about accepting Saudi government funding and failing to give a critical report to the Israel Defence Forces before releasing it to the public are constantly being recycled. HRW messed up by failing to see that the nerdy and, to most people, disturbing hobby of its weapons expert Marc Garlasco (he collects German and American second world war memorabilia) could be used to discredit his role as author of highly critical reports of Israel's military conduct in Gaza. But when this story broke last week, the equation implied in some allegations "Nazi" object-collector plus "Israel-basher" equals "antisemite" was baseless and defamatory. That he also worked on reports critical of Hamas and Hezbollah was ignored. As another excuse to attack HRW, and deflect attention from its reports' findings, the Garlasco affair was a gift.

The human rights world is not beyond reproach. UNHRC has hardly been impartial on Israel. Goldstone accepted his role only after the council president agreed to the alteration of the mission's mandate to cover all parties to the conflict, not just Israel. But mistrust alone does not explain the extraordinary scale of the attacks on human rights organisations, including all Israeli ones, for their reports on Israel.

In the 1970s, Jewish groups pressing the Soviets to allow Jews the right to leave the USSR worked with the human rights movement and based their arguments on human rights principles. But now the promoters of the concept of the "new antisemitism" that Israel is the collective Jew persecuted by the international community hold the international human rights movement largely responsible for it. Unable to face the fact that occupation and increasingly extreme rightwing governments turned Israel into the neighbourhood bully, and misreading the fallout for Jewish communities as abandonment by progressive forces and governments, many Jewish leaders and opinion-formers have become the human rights movement's fiercest critics. With antisemitism framing this attack, reasoned argument becomes nigh on impossible.

Does it then come down to a matter of whose reputation you trust? If so would it be critics of human rights agencies like Alan Dershowitz, the prominent American lawyer who thinks torture could be legalised, Melanie Phillips, a columnist who calls Jewish critics of Israel "Jews for genocide", and Gerald Steinberg, who runs NGO Watch and is an advisor to the Lieberman-led Israeli Foreign Ministry? Or Richard Goldstone, former chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, who is putting his considerable reputation on the line in taking the UNHRC assignment? Frankly, I don't think there is a contest.

By declaring the reports of human rights agencies biased, the attack dogs are reinforcing the damage Israel is doing to itself. They put Israel in the company of serial human rights abusers that make the same complaint. And by refusing to respond to letters from HRW, denying the Goldstone mission entry to Israel, rubbishing testimony from Gazans unless it supports Israel's version of the offensive, and allowing the army to investigate itself, Israel merely shows it cannot even tolerate reasonable criticism. This is a sign of weakness, not strength."
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  -UN probe: evidence of war crimes in Gaza conflict Scurrilous  Sep-15-09 09:36 AM   #0 
  - what a load of garbage  shira   Sep-15-09 10:56 AM   #1 
  - an example of how atrocious this Goldstone report is  shira   Sep-15-09 10:10 PM   #5 
  - one more example  shira   Sep-15-09 10:21 PM   #6 
     - some liveleak vids constitute proof?  azurnoir   Sep-15-09 10:49 PM   #7 
     - you're welcome to ignore clear video evidence all you wish - happy delusions!  shira   Sep-15-09 11:03 PM   #10 
        - So if something's in a video, it must be true?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 03:29 AM   #16 
           - if you have good reason to suspect the video is false, i'm sure you'll let me know  shira   Sep-16-09 05:13 AM   #18 
              - You just said a video is clear evidence. I'm just taking yr 'logic' to obvious conclusions...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 06:38 AM   #21 
                 - you're deliberately ignoring credible evidence  shira   Sep-16-09 01:41 PM   #30 
                    - No, the problem is you have no clue about what reputable means...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 03:39 PM   #35 
     - detailed evidence of Hamas war crimes (human shielding) that the Goldstone commission missed  shira   Sep-15-09 11:03 PM   #9 
        - Colonel Richard Kemp on IDF in Gaza - former Commander of British forces in Afghanistan  shira   Sep-15-09 11:14 PM   #12 
  - I'm betting you haven't even read the report  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 02:52 AM   #14 
     - i've read parts of it as it's nearly 600 pages long  shira   Sep-16-09 05:46 AM   #19 
        - What I'm noticing is yr copying and pasting things from blogs...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 06:31 AM   #20 
           - i first looked up any and all info. on Hamas human shields because...  shira   Sep-16-09 01:21 PM   #29 
              - How about you get back to everyone when you've read the report in full?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 03:48 PM   #36 
                 - how about you help me understand why HRW, AI, and the UNHRC use different standards wrt Israel?  shira   Sep-16-09 06:26 PM   #44 
                    - How about you acknowledge and address what I say to you for a change?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-18-09 02:34 AM   #48 
                       - i am - you want me to read the entire report - but it's dishonest and therefore not credible  shira   Sep-18-09 06:36 AM   #54 
                          - Reading something before claiming it's 'dishonest and not credible' is a must-do...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-18-09 04:14 PM   #56 
                             - reading some of it is plenty to know whether it's dishonest and not credible  shira   Sep-18-09 06:50 PM   #58 
                                - Yr only copying bits yr finding from those extremely biased 'pro-Israel' blogs you read...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-18-09 10:27 PM   #60 
                                - even if that's all I do, that doesn't take away from the fact the report is full of shit  shira   Sep-19-09 05:10 AM   #62 
                                   - To judge if something's full of shit, you'd have to read it all to know...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 05:16 AM   #63 
                                      - that's silly - you can read some of something to know whether it's full of shit  shira   Sep-19-09 05:26 AM   #65 
                                         - No, it's incredibly silly to only read selected bits like you have...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 05:35 AM   #66 
                                            - even reading selected bits is enough to make conclusions on the overall credibility  shira   Sep-19-09 06:09 AM   #67 
                                               - No, it's incredibly stupid to jump to conclusions without reading it...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 06:55 AM   #70 
                                                  - if parts of it are completely full of shit, that's usually a tip to objective, rational people.  shira   Sep-19-09 07:05 AM   #71 
                                                  - You haven't shown that any of it is full of shit. You've shown you don't agree with the report...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 07:14 AM   #73 
                                                  - on the contrary, I have and you are incapable of refuting it rationally....all you do is personally  shira   Sep-19-09 07:24 AM   #75 
                                                  - More words for you to learn the definition of - *ad hominem and rational*  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 07:32 AM   #77 
                                                  - reply  shira   Sep-19-09 07:38 AM   #79 
                                                  - HRW don't have a glossary of official definitions...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 07:44 AM   #81 
                                                  - even if they did, you'd ignore it like you do the UN glossary of definitions, so what's the point?  shira   Sep-19-09 07:49 AM   #83 
                                                  - Huh? That was a training database for peacekeepers, not an official UN glossary...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 07:58 AM   #84 
                                                  - so peacekeepers for the UN are to have one definition of human shielding, but that's....  shira   Sep-19-09 07:09 PM   #86 
                                                  - All I did was correct yr false claim that it was an official UN definition...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 07:25 PM   #88 
                                                  - but it's that definition, what you say is not official, that HRW used in its reports on the LTTE, ..  shira   Sep-19-09 08:30 PM   #89 
                                                  - It's not just that I say it. It's that it's not an official definition...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 09:00 PM   #90 
                                                  - for something not being an official definition, it's certainly utilized that way by HRW in...  shira   Sep-19-09 09:24 PM   #91 
                                                  - It's not an official definition and it's not utilised that way at all...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 09:43 PM   #92 
                                                  - it appears you didn't read those HRW reports or the one about the HRW investigator last month  shira   Sep-19-09 10:11 PM   #93 
                                                  - I probably didn't, and don't really understand why I need to...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 11:55 PM   #94 
                                                  - why didn't you just concede much earlier?  shira   Sep-20-09 05:29 AM   #95 
                                                  - Concede? What do you think this is? A battle or something?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-20-09 07:37 AM   #96 
                                                  - LOL, okay.  shira   Sep-20-09 10:13 AM   #97 
                                                  - Violet...more on that "continuous combat role" by the Gaza 'civilian' police force  shira   Sep-26-09 06:20 AM   #98 
                                - And how many of those 100 internal investigations of abuse were dismissed as baseless?  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 05:21 AM   #64 
                                   - how many convictions do you require out of 100 in order to ascertain that the IDF is doing its job?  shira   Sep-19-09 06:13 AM   #68 
                                      - I figured you'd be totally in support of the IDF exonerating itself in all cases it's completed...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 06:44 AM   #69 
                                         - and i figured that unless there's a 100% conviction rate by the IDF, you think they should all be  shira   Sep-19-09 07:07 AM   #72 
                                            - You figure wrong, which is par for the course with you...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 07:16 AM   #74 
                                               - I'll stop speaking for you when you stop speaking for  shira   Sep-19-09 07:28 AM   #76 
                                                  - I don't do lame things like on the other hand did...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 07:35 AM   #78 
                                                     - you just did it a few posts above  shira   Sep-19-09 07:41 AM   #80 
                                                     - Pretty damn sure I didn't. I don't tell other people what they think...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-19-09 07:47 AM   #82 
  - U.N. Finds Signs of War Crimes on Both Sides in Gaza  Scurrilous   Sep-15-09 11:54 AM   #2 
  - Experts: Goldstone report may lead to private lawsuits  Scurrilous   Sep-15-09 03:53 PM   #3 
  - I feel a new wave hysteria and hyperbole coming on  azurnoir   Sep-15-09 10:51 PM   #8 
     - Indeed it has  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-16-09 10:54 AM   #25 
  - war crimes and terrorism in Gaza, commited  number6   Sep-15-09 05:39 PM   #4 
  - Yeah, right.  proteus_lives   Sep-15-09 11:09 PM   #11 
     - Actually, the report has found both guilty of committing war crimes...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 02:40 AM   #13 
        - Reports do not convict, they have findings. As pointed out in other posts it has no legal standing  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-16-09 10:55 AM   #26 
        - And I didn't say anyone was convicted n/t  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 03:49 PM   #37 
           - Found guilty == conviction  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-16-09 06:11 PM   #42 
              - Found guilty means someone thinks they are guilty.  bemildred   Sep-16-09 07:08 PM   #45 
                 - I speak English heaps better than you Americans, and that's my understanding of 'found guilty'...n/t  Violet_Crumble   Sep-18-09 02:35 AM   #49 
        - come on now  shira   Sep-16-09 01:47 PM   #31 
           - Excuse me? I have NOT been shown evidence the report isn't credible...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 03:57 PM   #38 
              - Not sure you would accept it regardless  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-16-09 06:10 PM   #41 
              - Well, until I see some credible evidence you'll never know n/t  Violet_Crumble   Sep-18-09 02:36 AM   #50 
              - you have been provided examples of double-standards with regard to human shielding....  shira   Sep-16-09 06:12 PM   #43 
                 - forgot to include this one from last month - HRW researcher acknowledging human shields  shira   Sep-16-09 07:26 PM   #46 
                 - I think yr starting to tie yrself up in knots here...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-18-09 02:38 AM   #51 
                    - the report is not credible  shira   Sep-18-09 06:41 AM   #55 
                       - What yr going on about isn't from the's yr pet hobbyhorse yet again...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-18-09 04:20 PM   #57 
                          - of course not, it's denied - it's a dishonest omission and I know that you know it  shira   Sep-18-09 07:02 PM   #59 
                             - I don't know why you bother 'debating' with people when you 'know' what they think...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-18-09 10:33 PM   #61 
                 - No, I haven't...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-18-09 02:29 AM   #47 
  - The Guardian's investigation of Gaza war crimes...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 03:28 AM   #15 
  - From AI USA  azurnoir   Sep-16-09 03:54 AM   #17 
  - This paragraph is so true...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 06:42 AM   #22 
  - Its an OpEd piece and the writer is welcome to his opinion. Reading his other pieces will give  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-16-09 11:00 AM   #27 
     - And I said what he said was so true. You clearly disagree. No shocker there...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-16-09 03:35 PM   #34 
        - Reading your posts, I would expect no other reaction from you either  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-16-09 06:08 PM   #40 
           - Being a bureacrat's got nothing to do with anything here...  Violet_Crumble   Sep-18-09 02:41 AM   #52 
  - Slandering Goldstone, a figure of world historical importance and credibility, as biased ...  HamdenRice   Sep-16-09 07:19 AM   #23 
  - Even he acknowledged that he did not have a complete set of data to work with  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-16-09 11:06 AM   #28 
  - Do you approve of Israel using this tactic to create "doubt"?  azurnoir   Sep-18-09 03:00 AM   #53 
  - appeal to authority is a logical fallacy - judge the reports on its merits or lack thereof  shira   Sep-16-09 01:48 PM   #32 
  - Goldstone's daughter: My father's participation softened UN Gaza report  Scurrilous   Sep-16-09 08:03 AM   #24 
     - softened from what? proving once again the UNHRC cannot be trusted to handle Israel  shira   Sep-16-09 01:51 PM   #33 
        - One only has to look at the composition  Sezu   Sep-16-09 04:44 PM   #39 
        - Nobody can handle Israel  Braulio   Sep-19-09 05:53 PM   #85 
           - Deleted message  Name removed   Sep-19-09 07:18 PM   #87 

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