You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login

Reply #78: You know what the problem is? [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #69
78. You know what the problem is?
Until recently Israel had a pretty large and active peace movement based on the concept of land for peace. The belief was that if Israel were to offer concessions, make a credible offer for the establishment of a Palestinian state and so on, that peace was attainable. It was basically the same thing that you're suggesting. Israel would make some concessions that would improve the Palestinian's quality of life, give them some limited self-determination (to begin with) so they could slowly build the government institutions necessary to run a state, bring in international investment, and so on, as a show of good faith and to give the Palestinians a reason to fight for peace... to show them the benefits of peace with Israel. In short, they thought, "oppression is bringing us nothing. If we offer them respect and opportunity instead then it will pay us dividends in peace."

The problem is that it did not work out well. There's a reason that the Israeli Peace movement is in shambles today. Their ideology, (our ideology), was tested and it failed. It failed miserably. And as much as it kills me to admit it, because I was a big supporter of the LfP concept, the Israeli Right predicted the outcome very accurately.

Don't get me wrong. Israel didn't do everything perfectly, nor were any of their concessions completely adequate for the long term. But they existed. And the result gave Israel a pretty good idea of what to expect from that brand of solution. Which was grim, to say the least. From the Israeli perspective, their issue with making territorial concessions coupled with increased autonomy is that it greatly reduces their security. So they need to know that any effort on their part will be met with a decrease in terrorism. So far every time Israel has made sizable concessions to the Palestinians it has resulted in exponentially increased violence visited upon Israel.

If Israel freezes settlement construction, closes checkpoints, removes their military from parts of the OPT, ends military ops in the OPT, begins allowing Palestinians into Israel to work in large numbers and so on, and the immediate result is a drastic increase in terrorism, then it isn't going to end up working. Any peace process has to benefit both sides. You can't expect Israeli to "wait it out" while terrorism gets worse and worse.

Oslo brought terror. There was no benefit for Israel. The same thing goes for the withdrawal from Gaza. And the withdrawal from Lebanon. However the fence and checkpoints brought security. Peace is always going to be a tough sell unless it actually brings, you know... peace.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
  -The blood libel brought up to date shira  May-03-09 09:05 PM   #0 
  - Zzzzzzzz  IndianaGreen   May-03-09 09:10 PM   #1 
  - The hilarity of Shira accusing others of racism continues  Chulanowa   May-03-09 10:08 PM   #2 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   May-04-09 05:30 AM   #3 
  - so being a pro-Israel zionist = racist?  shira   May-05-09 03:31 AM   #9 
     - Actually, yes, that's exactly what that means  Chulanowa   May-05-09 02:55 PM   #10 
        - wow. just wow.  shira   May-05-09 09:48 PM   #14 
        - Answers for your questions...  Chulanowa   May-06-09 06:03 AM   #21 
           - thx for the response but there are so many errors in your post - where to begin?  shira   May-07-09 08:56 PM   #40 
              - You could begin by trying to come up with thought-out answers  Chulanowa   May-09-09 10:20 PM   #61 
                 - speak for yourself  shira   May-10-09 05:54 AM   #64 
        - No it isn't; that's exactly like calling all criticism of Israel antisemitic!  LeftishBrit   May-06-09 02:55 AM   #18 
           - That "small minority" is the one calling the shots and making the policy, though  Chulanowa   May-06-09 06:46 AM   #22 
              - From what source did you learn about the founding of the State of Israel?  oberliner   May-06-09 08:15 AM   #24 
              - Oh, I wish I had that kind of memory...  Chulanowa   May-06-09 01:32 PM   #27 
                 - Here is the characterization that struck me  oberliner   May-06-09 05:11 PM   #31 
                    - Well, the phraseology was harsh.  Ken Burch   May-06-09 08:29 PM   #34 
                    - Thank you for managing to type out what I was thinking  Chulanowa   May-07-09 12:06 AM   #36 
                    - And yet, that's what happened.  Chulanowa   May-06-09 11:55 PM   #35 
                       - In the UK, they had a deliberate policy to break up Jewish refugee families.  Ken Burch   May-07-09 05:31 PM   #38 
              - The Palestinians never wanted their own state until 1967  Vegasaurus   May-06-09 12:26 PM   #26 
                 - You know, I was devising a nice meaty reply for you...  Chulanowa   May-06-09 01:38 PM   #28 
                 - Tom Segev's book "One Palestine, Complete", says you're wrong on that.  Ken Burch   May-07-09 05:36 PM   #39 
                    - so where was the cry for a Palestinian state in Gaza and the W.Bank between 1948-67?  shira   May-07-09 09:21 PM   #42 
                       - Actually that was the oroginal point of al-Fatah  Chulanowa   May-08-09 06:28 AM   #47 
                       - wrong again, jeez  shira   May-09-09 06:47 AM   #50 
                       - The fact that you're equating the PLO with Fatah in a historical sense proves your ignorance  Chulanowa   May-09-09 10:34 PM   #62 
                          - once again  shira   May-10-09 05:57 AM   #65 
                       - But it was not a "liberation movement" that also included Israel's continued existence  oberliner   May-09-09 07:23 AM   #51 
                          - And? Did I say it was?  Chulanowa   May-09-09 10:36 PM   #63 
                             - They were as much of an "eliminate Israel" movement as an "establish a Palestinian state" one  oberliner   May-10-09 06:30 AM   #67 
                                - And that has what to do with the rivalry between Fatah and the PLO?  Chulanowa   May-11-09 04:00 PM   #75 
                       - Those fundamentalists wouldn't have had influence had not the IDF crushed the SECULAR Palestinian  Ken Burch   May-09-09 05:37 PM   #53 
                          - Is life imprisonment not a suitable sentence for someone convicted of murder?  oberliner   May-09-09 06:39 PM   #54 
                             - A lot of people responsible for killing have gone on to lead states.  Ken Burch   May-09-09 06:46 PM   #55 
                                - I agree with all of your points  oberliner   May-09-09 06:55 PM   #56 
                                   - Too early to tell as yet. There's a risk in releasing such people, there's a risk in ARRESTING them  Ken Burch   May-09-09 07:02 PM   #57 
  - Nonsense.  Donald Ian Rankin   May-04-09 12:13 PM   #4 
  - I love that you said "which we don't" n/t  Bryan Sacks   May-04-09 03:54 PM   #7 
  - the churchill play is nonsense  shira   May-05-09 03:22 AM   #8 
     - A Palestinian mother or father has all the same worries listed in the "one has to cope" paragraph  Ken Burch   May-05-09 03:38 PM   #12 
        - seems you're the one who doesn't care about Jews being stereotyped and libeled  shira   May-05-09 09:52 PM   #15 
           - Actually, yes  Ken Burch   May-05-09 09:59 PM   #16 
           - that's it? well that explains pretty much everything about your views  shira   May-06-09 05:29 AM   #19 
              - Ah, bullshitting the new guy already?  Chulanowa   May-06-09 07:20 AM   #23 
              - your ignorance is only exceeded by your arrogance  shira   May-07-09 09:12 PM   #41 
                 - As usual, you have no room to talk  Chulanowa   May-08-09 06:15 AM   #45 
                    - hard to take you seriously - just wondering if you take yourself seriously  shira   May-09-09 12:26 PM   #52 
                       - Ever notice that your "routine" gets more laughs than mine?  Chulanowa   May-09-09 09:39 PM   #60 
                          - can't do this anymore, you get the last word in okay?  shira   May-10-09 06:06 AM   #66 
              - I know that everyday Palestinian life is terrible  Ken Burch   May-06-09 06:03 PM   #32 
           - The other problem is your ludicrous belief that the use of brute force by the IDF  Ken Burch   May-06-09 01:11 AM   #17 
              - Deleted message  Name removed   May-06-09 05:54 AM   #20 
                 - Surely you can distinguish between "after" and "during"?  Donald Ian Rankin   May-06-09 08:17 AM   #25 
                 - after occupation, it's likely Palestinians will stop violence vs. Israel?  shira   May-07-09 09:25 PM   #43 
                    - It's a hell of a lot more likely than them stopping it while the Occupation goes on.  Ken Burch   May-09-09 07:14 PM   #58 
                       - so you have no reason to expect an end to "resistance" once Israel withdraws from the W.Bank  shira   May-10-09 06:31 AM   #68 
                          - Withdrawal in itself wouldn't be enough. There would also have to be  Ken Burch   May-10-09 06:46 AM   #69 
                             - you must think Israelis are dumb  shira   May-10-09 07:52 AM   #70 
                             - I'm making a distinction between the rank-and-file soldier and the IDF high command  Ken Burch   May-10-09 02:16 PM   #71 
                             - I don't think Israelis are dumb. Too trusting of the generals, yes, but not dumb  Ken Burch   May-10-09 04:40 PM   #72 
                                - do you read Haaretz, JPost, YNet, etc.? Israeli press is WAY more self-critical than  shira   May-10-09 06:52 PM   #73 
                                   - I've never given the U.S,. miilitarists a pass.  Ken Burch   May-10-09 06:59 PM   #74 
                                      - so riddle me this one  shira   May-12-09 06:22 AM   #76 
                             - You know what the problem is?  Shaktimaan   May-18-09 04:41 AM   #78 
                 - Well, as usual, some corrections...  Chulanowa   May-06-09 02:06 PM   #29 
                 - My beliefs reflect the fact that you can't hold an occupied people to the same standards  Ken Burch   May-06-09 02:58 PM   #30 
                    - That should have read  Ken Burch   May-06-09 06:22 PM   #33 
                    - really? so occupied Palestinians between 1948-67 acted similarly WRT their Jordanian and Egyptian  shira   May-07-09 09:29 PM   #44 
                       - There's an important difference, of course  Chulanowa   May-08-09 06:22 AM   #46 
                          - Jordan annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem  oberliner   May-08-09 09:06 AM   #48 
                          - this takes the cake  shira   May-09-09 06:42 AM   #49 
                          - Did you miss the part in parentheses?  Chulanowa   May-09-09 07:22 PM   #59 
                          - Thos one does truly take the cake.  Shaktimaan   May-18-09 04:04 AM   #77 
  - Well, I disagree, but I am well aware that in a sense this goes beyond agreement/disagreement  LeftishBrit   May-04-09 12:32 PM   #5 
  - Not just nonsense there is also willful misinterpetation  azurnoir   May-04-09 02:26 PM   #6 
  - ANOTHER "Seven Jewish Children" thread? sheesh!  Ken Burch   May-05-09 03:35 PM   #11 
  - As Shakespeare said  azurnoir   May-05-09 04:09 PM   #13 
  - For any who actually want to SEE that play, here's a link  ConsAreLiars   May-07-09 12:47 AM   #37 

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC