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Reply #121: Thank you for posting the links. My concern is this, when you said [View All]

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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-22-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #116
121. Thank you for posting the links. My concern is this, when you said
earlier to the Democracy Now interview: "I did read the exchange, BTW, and even if you wish to believe Barak left early due to elections - that's fine."

I am flabbergasted by this, if I wish?? Those words were said by Ben Ami himself yet you believe Ross's version.

Maximalist? demands by Arafat you say, I don't think you read the interview.

*snip from Democracy Now interview:

Finkelstein: Come 1981, as pressure builds on Israel to reach a diplomatic settlement in the Israel-Palestine conflict, they decide to invade Lebanon in order to crush the P.L.O., because the P.L.O. was on record supporting a two-state settlement. As Dr. Ben-Amis colleague, Avner Yaniv, put it in a very excellent book, Dilemmas of Security, he said, The main problem for Israel was, and now Im quoting him, the P.L.O.s peace offensive. They wanted a two-state settlement. Israel did not. And so Israel decides to crush the P.L.O. in Lebanon. It successfully did so. The P.L.O. goes into exile.

Along comes Israel with a clever idea. Mr. Rabin says, Lets throw Arafat a life preserver, but on condition. And Dr. Ben-Ami puts it excellently, that the P.L.O. will be Israels subcontractor and collaborator in the Occupied Territories, and Im quoting Dr. Ben-Ami, in order to suppress the genuinely democratic tendencies of the Palestinians. Now, its true, exactly as Dr. Ben-Ami said, that Israel had two options after the Iraq war. It could have negotiated with the real representatives of the Palestinians who wanted that full two-state settlement in accordance with the international consensus, or it can negotiate with Arafat in the hope that hes so desperate that hes going to serve as their collaborator and subcontractor in order to deny the Palestinians what theyre entitled to under international law.
The Israelis chose Arafat, not only because Arafat himself was desperate. They chose him because they thought he would deny them what they were entitled to. He would suppress all resistance to the occupation. And then, finally, the day of reckoning came with the Camp David talks. It turned out Arafat was not willing to make those concessions to deny Palestinians what their rights were under international law, and I think thats where the impasse occurred at Camp David and at Taba.

snip* Ben Ami:
As far as the second part of Dr. Finkelsteins presentation is concerned, I agree. It is based on what I say, and the only thing I would add to it is that international law was the last or the least of Arafats concern. He didnt give a damn about international law. It was not whether or not the agreement was based on international law or not that concerned Arafat. In my view, this is my interpretation of a man I met many, many times. I might be wrong, obviously, but this is my firsthand interpretation of this man. He was morally, psychologically, physically incapable of accepting the moral legitimacy of a Jewish state, regardless of its borders or whatever. Arafat was incapable of closing or locking the door of his endless conflict between us and the Palestinians. And this is the bottom line.

I mean, in Taba, it had nothing to do with international law. In Taba, what happened was that Arafat really believed that Bush son is a replica of Bush father, and Bush father was known in the Arab world as more friendly, or at least partially deaf to Jewish concerns. This was his image in the Arab world. I remember a visit I made to President Mubarak. After we left office, I said Everybody speaks about military intelligence, Mr. President, but we all failed in our political intelligence. You wanted the election of President Bush. We wanted the election of Al Gore, and then we ended up with the most friendly president to the state of Israel ever in the White House. So this was the conviction of Arafat, that he can still get a better deal from President Bush. His concerns were of a political nature more than anything else, and this is where he failed again, because Arafat had always a sense of somebody who knows everything. I mean, he thought of himself as a great strategist, and this is where he failed time and again, and he betrayed the cause of his own people, because at the end of the day, today, the Palestinians are becoming the second Kurds of the Middle East, a nation that is moving away from the chances of having a state.

SHLOMO BEN-AMI: Yes, Hamas. I think that in my view there is almost sort of poetic justice with this victory of Hamas. After all, what is the reason for this nostalgia for Arafat and for the P.L.O.? Did they run the affairs of the Palestinians in a clean way? You mentioned the corruption, the inefficiency. Of course, Israel has contributed a lot to the disintegration of the Palestinian system, no doubt about it, but their leaders failed them. Their leaders betrayed them, and the victory of Hamas is justice being made in many ways. So we cannot preach democracy and then say that those who won are not accepted by us. Either there is democracy or there is no democracy.

Lets now turn to, just quickly, the last issue. Its going to be hard for a lot of your listeners, because even though I have read two dozen books on the topic, I keep getting things confused. Camp David accord talks are in July 2000. Clinton parameters are roughly December 23rd, 2000. Taba, in January 2001. Now, Dr. Ben-Ami says Camp David, I can understand why the Palestinians turned down. Unfortunately, in his book he keeps referring to Arafats unyielding positions, even though now he acknowledges Palestinians made concessions at Camp David. In fact, as I said, all the concessions, within the framework of international law, came from the Palestinians.

Lets now turn to those Clinton parameters. Dr. Ben-Ami accurately renders their content. I dont think he accurately renders in the book what happened. He states in the book that at Taba, Israelis accept excuse me, at the time of the Clinton parameters, the Israelis accepted the Clinton parameters. Arafat didnt really accept the Clinton parameters. He said he did, but he didnt. What actually happened? What actually happened was exactly as what was announced by the White House spokesman on January 3rd, 2001, the official statement was both the Israelis and the Palestinians have accepted the Clinton parameters with some reservations. Both sides entered reservations on the Clinton parameters. Dr. Ben-Ami leaves out in the book both sides. He only mentions the reservations by the Palestinians.

Wait, one last point. One last point. Dr. Ben-Ami left out another crucial point in his account. He doesnt tell us why Taba ended. It ended officially when Barak withdrew his negotiators. It wasnt the Palestinians who walked out of Taba. It ended with the Israelis walking out of Taba, a matter of historical record, not even controversial.


Okay, well. You see, as somebody who was a part of those who prepared the Israeli document that was submitted to President Clinton, I can say that the bulk of the document was an expression of our the comparison that we made between our initial positions and what was reflected in the Clinton parameters. It was not a series of reservations. It was basically a mention of the difference, the way that we have gone. This was an attempt to impress the President, more than an attempt to say that these are reservations, sine qua nons. There were no real reservations in our document, whereas in the Palestinian document, there were plenty of them, with the refugees, with the Haram al-Sharif, with what have you. I mean, it was full of reservations from beginning to end. Ours was not a document about reservations, it was a statement, basically, that said these were our positions, this is where we stand today. we have gone a very long way, we cannot go beyond that. This was essentially what we sent.

Now, with regard to Taba, you see, we were a government committing suicide, practically. Two weeks before general elections, the chief of staff, General Mofaz, who is now the Minister of Defense, comes and in a I say that in the book in something that is tantamount to a coup detat, comes and says publicly that we are putting at risk the future of the state of Israel by assuming the Clinton parameters, and we accept them, we assume them. And then I go to Cairo and I meet President Mubarak, and President Mubarak invites Arafat to see me in Cairo, and I say to Arafat, We are going to fine tune this in a meeting in Taba, if you wish. And then we go to Taba, and we negotiate in Taba. And in Taba, Prime Minister Barak instructs me to conduct secret negotiations with Abu Alla. Within the negotiations, we had the second track trying to reach an agreement, and he even agrees to all kind of things that he was not very open to before that.

Now, this was the end. We saw that we are not reaching an agreement, and we need to go back, even if for the electoral campaign. I mean, we were a week before the elections. I mean, we were practically nonexistent. Our legitimacy as a government to negotiate such central issues as Jerusalem, as Temple Mount, the temple, etc., was being questioned, not only by the right that was making political capital out of it, but by the left, people from our own government. Shlomo Ben-Ami is ready to sell out the country for the sake of a Nobel Prize. This is what Haim Ramon said, one of the labor ministers, so it was unsustainable. We could not go any longer. So, to say that we now the whole thing collapsed because we put a helicopter at the disposal of the Palestinians to go and see if we can rubricate some basic peace parameters on the basis of our negotiations, that they didnt want it, Arafat didnt want it.

Anyway, the thing is that we need to understand that with all frankly, with all due respect for the requirements of international law, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, a peace process is a political enterprise. And there are things that governments can do and things that they cannot do, because if you do things that leave you without political support, then you can do nothing. You can write poetry, not make peace. And we have been writing poetry ever since, because we are not in office. We have been advancing all kind of peace dreams.

It is only when you are in office and you have a political support that you can move ahead. This is the only way that peace is done. We have done our very best. We went to the outer limits of our capacity for compromise without disintegrating entirely our home front, and this is an exercise that Sharon decided not to make, precisely because he learned from our experience.

He said, Listen, we are not going to do that. I am going to be unilateral. I dont believe in negotiations. Its very bad, but this is the lesson that he learned from the sad experience of the collapse of the peace process in the last year of Clintons presidency.(end)

At one point during the interview Ben Ami states: "There is no way there is no way we can fully compensate the refugees and the Palestinians, but we need to do our very, very best to find a way to minimize the harm that was done to this nation."

I hope Netanyahu is listening to that voice. /
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  -Emanuel Says Obama Insists On Implementing Two State Solution, No Ifs, Ands, or Buts ProgressiveMuslim  Apr-16-09 12:39 PM   #0 
  - fantastic news  Howardx   Apr-16-09 12:46 PM   #1 
  - Finally.  gcomeau   Apr-16-09 12:46 PM   #2 
  - Word.  bemildred   Apr-16-09 12:47 PM   #3 
  - Wow, this certainly marks a departure...  CoffeeCat   Apr-16-09 12:49 PM   #4 
  - It's very significant that Mr Emmanuel is on board with this.  bemildred   Apr-16-09 12:54 PM   #5 
     - I'm ecstatic! Quick, someone get on the phone with Meshal! nt  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-16-09 01:00 PM   #6 
     - LOL. Yeah, right.  bemildred   Apr-16-09 01:06 PM   #8 
        - I *am* ecstatic -- and I do home someone talks some sense into the Palestinian  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-16-09 02:17 PM   #17 
           - Well all right.  bemildred   Apr-16-09 03:48 PM   #19 
           - Unity talks without the spotlight and pressure could be a great thing...  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-16-09 04:10 PM   #20 
           - Could someone do a Marwan B. graphic in the style of the "HOPE" poster?  Ken Burch   Apr-22-09 11:56 PM   #122 
           - hamas's time to choose  Howardx   Apr-16-09 05:09 PM   #30 
              - I honestly don't think it's nihilism.  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-16-09 08:05 PM   #52 
           - this is the key - hoping someone talks some sense into PA leadership  shira   Apr-17-09 07:44 AM   #62 
              - Everyone who posted on this thread is clear about the "key" and it involves  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-17-09 07:49 AM   #63 
                 - that "key"  shira   Apr-17-09 08:18 AM   #66 
                    - If Barak hadn't walked, who knows where that would have ended?  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-17-09 08:59 AM   #70 
                    - yeah right, the "ceiling" or limit was rejected soundly by Arafat...what was there to negotiate?  shira   Apr-17-09 09:07 AM   #71 
                       - You're so right. Israel's "ceiling" is sacred. Full steam ahead with apartheid! nt  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-17-09 09:31 AM   #74 
                          - Those were Clinton's parameters - what he viewed as Israel's ceiling.  shira   Apr-17-09 10:34 AM   #75 
                             - We shall see. I would have thought a peace-lover such as yourself would be thrilled with  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-17-09 10:39 AM   #78 
                                - you're the one stating someone has to talk some sense into PA leadership  shira   Apr-17-09 11:04 AM   #80 
                                   - Shira... ever the word twister.  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-17-09 12:14 PM   #83 
                                      - what was in 'bad faith' about the Taba initiatives via Prez Clinton that Israel agreed to  shira   Apr-17-09 05:42 PM   #88 
                                      - what was in 'bad faith' about the Taba initiatives via Prez Clinton that Israel agreed to  shira   Apr-17-09 05:42 PM   #89 
                                         - Weren't those talks suspended due to the Israeli elections?  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-18-09 07:03 AM   #94 
                                            - nope - Israel's best offer by Clinton's standards was wholly rejected by Arafat  shira   Apr-18-09 07:15 AM   #95 
                                               - This is just nonsense Shira.  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-18-09 07:26 AM   #96 
                                               - The 'ceiling' at Taba does not represent the 'floor' for further negotiations and THAT is why  shira   Apr-18-09 07:37 AM   #98 
                                               - You should help put some pressure on the gov't of Israel to make that concession.  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-18-09 08:30 AM   #100 
                                               - Again with the bullshit, shira. Stop with your useless lies about Taba  Idealism   Apr-18-09 08:45 PM   #103 
                                               - bullshit and lies, right?  shira   Apr-19-09 09:16 AM   #105 
                                               - It is pretty bad when Wikipedia flat out refutes you, not to mention the European Union  Idealism   Apr-19-09 10:55 AM   #107 
                                               - once again, when you find something refuting Clinton, Barak, Ross, and ben-Ami, then I'm certain you  shira   Apr-19-09 12:27 PM   #109 
                                               - Your claim that Arafat caused Taba to fail is directly refuted by the EU.  Idealism   Apr-19-09 06:52 PM   #112 
                                               - it is? The EU paper shows how maximalist Arafat's demands were.  shira   Apr-22-09 05:00 PM   #115 
                                               - More from you:  Jefferson23   Apr-19-09 07:23 PM   #113 
                                               - not exactly, Sherlock  shira   Apr-22-09 05:25 PM   #116 
                                               - Where is the link to your post?  Jefferson23   Apr-22-09 07:42 PM   #117 
                                               - which post? try google with quotation marks.  shira   Apr-22-09 08:41 PM   #118 
                                               - Your post to me, post # 116, please provide the link. I don't go  Jefferson23   Apr-22-09 08:46 PM   #119 
                                               - links  shira   Apr-22-09 09:28 PM   #120 
                                               - Thank you for posting the links. My concern is this, when you said  Jefferson23   Apr-22-09 10:55 PM   #121 
                                               - so what does this prove in your opinion? I'm curious.  shira   Apr-23-09 05:25 AM   #124 
                                               - You have ignored what I addressed to you, I provided words from  Jefferson23   Apr-23-09 08:05 AM   #126 
                                               - but even though Barak left 2 days early, what makes you think Arafat wanted to make peace?  shira   Apr-23-09 04:16 PM   #128 
                                               - typical.  shira   Apr-24-09 05:36 AM   #131 
                                               - "The essence of the right of return is choice: Palestinians should be given  rateyes   Apr-27-09 12:39 PM   #137 
                                               - Official joint statement by Israel and the PA following the Taba talks  shaayecanaan   Apr-23-09 01:42 AM   #123 
                                               - it's called diplomacy - setting all sides up psychologically in the future for negotiations  shira   Apr-23-09 05:33 AM   #125 
                                               - Actually, its called a statement...  shaayecanaan   Apr-23-09 07:18 PM   #129 
                                               - of course it's a don't seriously believe it do you?  shira   Apr-24-09 05:35 AM   #130 
                                               - yes, because the Israelis said so...  shaayecanaan   Apr-24-09 09:33 AM   #132 
                                               - so you believe the 2 sides were close to a deal b/c both sides said so?  shira   Apr-24-09 06:54 PM   #133 
                                               - So you don't believe the Israelis any more?  shaayecanaan   Apr-25-09 12:49 AM   #134 
                                               - answered in title of post #125  shira   Apr-25-09 04:08 AM   #135 
                                               - well, its a start  shaayecanaan   Apr-26-09 02:23 AM   #136 
                    - No, the key is to pressure Israel to offer an actual viable Palestinian state.  Donald Ian Rankin   Apr-17-09 09:10 AM   #72 
                       - maybe you need to educate yourself  shira   Apr-17-09 10:38 AM   #77 
     - Even the nuance....  CoffeeCat   Apr-16-09 01:00 PM   #7 
     - the wisdom of selecting rahm shines through  Howardx   Apr-16-09 01:21 PM   #11 
     - Well, this ought to give the BBC a break for a while.  bemildred   Apr-16-09 01:23 PM   #12 
     - hard to paint him as AIPACs mole in the White House but that's exactly  cali   Apr-16-09 01:24 PM   #13 
        - ....and the Oscar for best political kabuki goes to  IDFbunny   Apr-22-09 04:39 PM   #114 
     - talk is cheap nt  grassfed   Apr-16-09 05:56 PM   #39 
        - Please see post #8. nt  bemildred   Apr-16-09 06:07 PM   #40 
  - Goddamn, that sounds good.  cali   Apr-16-09 01:06 PM   #9 
  - First trains, then this.  liberalmuse   Apr-16-09 01:13 PM   #10 
  - EXCELLENT NEWS!!!! and I love the I'll be out of town part, lol.  Jefferson23   Apr-16-09 02:07 PM   #14 
  - The surprise is part about Netanyaho possibly  azurnoir   Apr-16-09 02:13 PM   #15 
     - The reactions, verbal and otherwise are going to be interesting to  Jefferson23   Apr-16-09 04:38 PM   #26 
  - And using Iran as the carrot so to speak  azurnoir   Apr-16-09 02:15 PM   #16 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-16-09 03:46 PM   #18 
  - disgusting comment. truly beyond the pale.  cali   Apr-16-09 04:15 PM   #21 
  - There are people on this board who want the security wall  Sezu   Apr-16-09 06:40 PM   #46 
     - Convenience for whom, that's the question?  bemildred   Apr-16-09 07:12 PM   #47 
     - If Israel feels it needs a "security" wall, it must build it on its own land.  Donald Ian Rankin   Apr-16-09 07:27 PM   #49 
     - Where was your anger when Israel decided to assassinate dozens of Palestinian leaders?  Idealism   Apr-16-09 10:49 PM   #58 
  - My, my. This will certainly shine the light on those whose *talk* peace and those who work for  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-16-09 04:15 PM   #22 
  - hehe  Howardx   Apr-16-09 05:07 PM   #29 
  - You'd prefer a one-state solution?  Donald Ian Rankin   Apr-16-09 04:34 PM   #25 
     - Nah... Sezu has a thing for apartheid... so long as her people aren't on the wrong side of the wall.  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-16-09 04:45 PM   #27 
  - Good for him, and good luck to him!  LeftishBrit   Apr-16-09 04:26 PM   #23 
  - I'll believe it when I see it, but at least he's talking the talk. N.T.  Donald Ian Rankin   Apr-16-09 04:27 PM   #24 
  - Skepticism is warranted, but you have to ask yourself why they would bother  bemildred   Apr-16-09 06:26 PM   #42 
  - Mitchell rejected recent publications the US President Barack Obama refused to meet with Netanyahu  oberliner   Apr-16-09 05:01 PM   #28 
  - heres a link...  Howardx   Apr-16-09 05:13 PM   #31 
  - Reuters "Obama envoy tells Israel U.S. wants Palestinian state  Howardx   Apr-16-09 05:18 PM   #33 
  - Why does he not link to the Hebrew version?  oberliner   Apr-16-09 05:20 PM   #34 
     - cant you go to the website  Howardx   Apr-16-09 05:23 PM   #36 
        - Yedioth Achronoth  Howardx   Apr-16-09 05:25 PM   #37 
           - I can't find the article on that site  oberliner   Apr-16-09 10:45 PM   #57 
  - The above said," will not meet "not refused and Obama would not be  Jefferson23   Apr-16-09 05:15 PM   #32 
  - But where is the original article that the OP is reporting on  oberliner   Apr-16-09 05:21 PM   #35 
  - There's an article on it at ynetnews  Donald Ian Rankin   Apr-16-09 05:25 PM   #38 
  - I read that too and thought it interesting that the critics are focusing  Jefferson23   Apr-16-09 06:25 PM   #41 
  - If I find it, I'll post it here.  Jefferson23   Apr-16-09 06:27 PM   #43 
  - Do you read Hebrew?  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-16-09 08:03 PM   #51 
     - Does the author of the OP read Hebrew?  oberliner   Apr-16-09 10:44 PM   #56 
        - How come you're so cagey? Do you read Hebrew?  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-17-09 07:58 AM   #65 
           - Where is the original article?  oberliner   Apr-17-09 08:48 AM   #67 
              - MJ Rosenberg isn't a very credible source  shira   Apr-17-09 08:54 AM   #68 
              - Why do you say MJ Rosenberg is not a reliable source?  Meshuga   Apr-23-09 03:32 PM   #127 
              - The issue isn't one that can be "proven" with the article.  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-17-09 08:59 AM   #69 
                 - Well I would say there are two issues  oberliner   Apr-17-09 09:21 AM   #73 
                    - What's the second issue?  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-17-09 10:39 AM   #79 
                       - Well if this is verified, then the second issue is what this would mean for the peace process  oberliner   Apr-17-09 11:55 AM   #82 
                          - For someone who claims it's a positive sign, yr not indicating that in yr posts...  Violet_Crumble   Apr-18-09 04:23 AM   #90 
                             - The Emanuel conversation and the scheduled meeting between Obama and Netanyahu  oberliner   Apr-18-09 04:49 AM   #92 
                             - I've rarely if ever seen anyone so determined to write an article off as bullshit...  Violet_Crumble   Apr-19-09 07:30 AM   #104 
                                - It's a pet peeve of mine  oberliner   Apr-19-09 09:23 AM   #106 
                             - I, too, was underwhelmed by your response Oberliner.  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-18-09 07:28 AM   #97 
                                - And I am shocked that this dubious story is being accepted so readily  oberliner   Apr-18-09 07:49 AM   #99 
                                   - Oberliner, this is but one of many signs that indicate Obama could be playing  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-18-09 08:56 AM   #101 
                                   - I think one aspect of this story I'm sure you've noticed and that is, so  Jefferson23   Apr-18-09 08:03 PM   #102 
                                      - It's really not "out there" in any sense of the word  oberliner   Apr-19-09 11:54 AM   #108 
                                         - The point is oberliner, IT IS out there, even the Christian Science Monitor  Jefferson23   Apr-19-09 05:04 PM   #110 
                                            - Interesting  oberliner   Apr-19-09 05:20 PM   #111 
  - What a relief, huh?  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-16-09 06:27 PM   #44 
  - It's all about control.  bemildred   Apr-16-09 06:35 PM   #45 
  - I'm struck by the near-total absense of posts from traditionally anti-Palestinian posters  Donald Ian Rankin   Apr-16-09 07:22 PM   #48 
  - They're busy posting about hezbollah terror attacks in tel Aviv... gotta correct the mood, people!  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-16-09 07:38 PM   #50 
  - They are awaiting instructions from Likud and/or Yisrael Beitenu  IndianaGreen   Apr-16-09 10:05 PM   #54 
  - your shit stirring here is a striking depiction of  cali   Apr-17-09 06:19 AM   #60 
  - Yeah, and all this time they were saying they were for a 2-state solution...  shaayecanaan   Apr-16-09 10:32 PM   #55 
     - well most likely they do support a two state solution however  azurnoir   Apr-16-09 11:06 PM   #59 
  - I love President Obama very much (I REALLY do) but I will believe it when I see it!  Douglas Carpenter   Apr-16-09 09:51 PM   #53 
  - I listen to Democracy Now too faithfully to *love* Obama but I did find this exciting! nt  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-17-09 10:34 AM   #76 
  - Here's some more background on the Clinton/Mitchell strategy  HamdenRice   Apr-17-09 06:58 AM   #61 
  - If that's the strategy, this won't work  shira   Apr-17-09 11:30 AM   #81 
     - Yeas, everybody avoids the elephant in the room  Sezu   Apr-17-09 02:09 PM   #84 
     - Can;t make peace with people who don't want peace  Vegasaurus   Apr-17-09 04:01 PM   #85 
        - Hamas are teddy bears  shira   Apr-17-09 05:40 PM   #87 
           - Yes! Then they will be handing out candies  Vegasaurus   Apr-18-09 06:53 AM   #93 
  - More on the report, from Richard Silverstein  ProgressiveMuslim   Apr-17-09 07:57 AM   #64 
     - Wow. That's very encouraging.  Barack_America   Apr-17-09 04:11 PM   #86 
     - One of my concerns about Obama has vanished...  Violet_Crumble   Apr-18-09 04:31 AM   #91 

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