Ken Burch
(1000+ posts)
Send PM |
Profile |
Ignore
|
Mon Mar-30-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
| 59. That analogy SO doesn't work |
|
1)The orchestra played VOLUNTARILY for the Holocaust survivors. They weren't forced to play by the IDF at gunpoint. 2)The idea of the concert was to say that Palestinians acknowledge a)that the Holocaust did, in fact happened(I would assume that all decent Palestinians, like all decent people everywhere, would acknowledge this)
b)that Palestinians, as people who have suffered, stand in solidarity with others who have suffered.
I hope you aren't going to argue that the fact that the survivors are now Israeli somehow negates their suffering, or that this particular group of survivors is personally responsible for the Nakba. Those people may not even have been(originally at leasts)Zionists(most Jews weren't until at least 1948 and many not until 1967).
This concert was an attempt to bridge a gap that doesn't need to be there. There's never been a justification for Holocaust denial among those who back the Palestinian cause, any more than among any other group. You don't need to deny that Hitler tried to wipe out the Jews in order to make the point that Hitler's project DOES NOT justify what's been done to the Palestinians.
The concert was a good thing, and harmed no one. Why should anyone have been punished for it?
|
| -Jenin orchestra shut down after playing for survivors |
henank |
Mar-29-09 09:13 AM |
#0 |
-
Sigh |
ayeshahaqqiqa |
Mar-29-09 09:20 AM |
#1 |
 -
I agree wiith you |
LeftishBrit |
Mar-29-09 09:46 AM |
#2 |
-
I know I have the minority view here... |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 09:48 AM |
#3 |
 -
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-29-09 10:23 AM |
#4 |
  -
Utter nonsense. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 11:34 AM |
#10 |
 -
Yet there is only one way to overcome hate |
ayeshahaqqiqa |
Mar-29-09 10:35 AM |
#5 |
  -
Are you asking the children of Jenin, flattened 7 years ago, to forgive?? |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 11:33 AM |
#9 |
 -
The point is here, it isn't the children who refused to play for the Israelis |
LeftishBrit |
Mar-29-09 11:59 AM |
#14 |
  -
Do you think Palestinian children are like American children? |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 12:00 PM |
#15 |
 -
The group has played in Israel several times before |
oberliner |
Mar-29-09 12:28 PM |
#18 |
 -
I found this quote from a survivor very telling... |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 03:22 PM |
#28 |
 -
I have no idea what you are reacting to in that quote |
oberliner |
Mar-29-09 03:39 PM |
#32 |
  -
Asl though the onus of understanding in that situation... where those mature adults |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 04:56 PM |
#36 |
 -
You don't think young Palestinians should learn about the Holocaust? |
oberliner |
Mar-29-09 05:30 PM |
#41 |
  -
Don't you think adult Jews in Israel should learn about the reality of their occupation? |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 08:49 PM |
#48 |
 -
Of course they should. But why do you assume that this concert works against that goal? |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 12:56 AM |
#63 |
 -
Yes, Israel has oppressed the Palestinians. This concert wasn't part of the oppression. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 12:57 AM |
#64 |
 -
Ken , you do not have all the facts. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-31-09 05:55 AM |
#123 |
 -
You would agree that Palestinian children and the whole Palestinian movement |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 12:51 AM |
#61 |
 -
Yes |
ayeshahaqqiqa |
Mar-29-09 03:24 PM |
#30 |
  -
As with any abuser, forgiveness absent of repentance is pointless, don't you think? |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 08:50 PM |
#49 |
 -
No |
ayeshahaqqiqa |
Mar-30-09 07:56 AM |
#93 |
 -
Do you expect sexually abused children to forgive their abusers while the crimes are ongoing? |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-31-09 06:01 AM |
#124 |
 -
You know those elderly people themselves bear no blame for what was done to Jenin |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 12:47 AM |
#60 |
 -
Doing this concert does NOT mean forgiving what was done to the children of Jenin |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 12:52 AM |
#62 |
 -
"One big difference is that the Palestinians had to return to the camp after they entertained." |
Jefferson23 |
Mar-29-09 10:48 AM |
#6 |
  -
Strongly agree |
LeftishBrit |
Mar-29-09 10:53 AM |
#7 |
  -
How sad if a group of kids, who don't even know what's what -- have to be paraded in front |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 11:32 AM |
#8 |
   -
Well again, what you are characterizing as pathetic is another reason |
Jefferson23 |
Mar-29-09 12:03 PM |
#16 |
    -
Yes it is so touching and sweet |
azurnoir |
Mar-30-09 03:06 PM |
#117 |
   -
The boys words are much more than sweet and dear of heart. |
Jefferson23 |
Mar-30-09 07:43 PM |
#119 |
   -
The kid gets part of it |
azurnoir |
Mar-30-09 10:12 PM |
#121 |
   -
"I'm here to raise spirits," Younis said. "These are poor, old people." |
oberliner |
Mar-29-09 12:03 PM |
#17 |
  -
Tell that to the IDF! |
IndianaGreen |
Mar-29-09 01:03 PM |
#20 |
  -
Huh? |
oberliner |
Mar-29-09 01:24 PM |
#22 |
  -
The contact and exchange is useless within the context of the Occupation |
IndianaGreen |
Mar-29-09 12:57 PM |
#19 |
   -
I disagree that the exchange is useless, the fact that the children |
Jefferson23 |
Mar-29-09 01:47 PM |
#23 |
   -
It is truly shocking. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 03:23 PM |
#29 |
    -
Interesting narcissism on your part. n/t |
Sezu |
Mar-29-09 07:09 PM |
#45 |
   -
Less interesting to me. But then, I'm used to it. |
Jim Sagle |
Mar-29-09 07:16 PM |
#46 |
   -
Uninteresting meaningless statement of derision on yours. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 01:13 AM |
#68 |
   -
I agree that the kids should not have had to go back to the camp |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 01:05 AM |
#65 |
    -
They think the Holocaust is "political" |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 06:04 AM |
#78 |
     -
I really doubt that it's "most". |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 06:36 AM |
#84 |
    -
I don't know the number or percentage of Arab/Palestinian Holocaust deniers |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 06:40 AM |
#85 |
    -
Let's not say 'many'. Let's say you have no idea...n/t |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 07:40 AM |
#91 |
    -
Of course it is many (many, many, in fact) |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 08:21 AM |
#96 |
     -
Veggie: 'I don't know the number or percentage of Arab/Palestinian Holocaust deniers' |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 08:30 AM |
#99 |
    -
I am sure you will be happy to read my post about all the many deniers |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 08:32 AM |
#101 |
     -
Clearly yr having problems reading my posts... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 08:35 AM |
#103 |
    -
I said MANY, many Arabs and Palestinians are Holocaust deniers |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 08:41 AM |
#106 |
    -
You said you didn't know how many... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 08:44 AM |
#109 |
    -
I don't hate anyone but liars and hypocrites |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 08:45 AM |
#110 |
    -
A self-hating liar? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 08:49 AM |
#113 |
    -
Yr right violet, what can I say? Yr right! |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 08:52 AM |
#115 |
    -
Here, I will make it easy for you |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 08:26 AM |
#98 |
    -
Didn't quite catch the numbers there, Veggie... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 08:32 AM |
#100 |
    -
Do you deny these quotes? |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 08:33 AM |
#102 |
    -
Do you bother reading any response to you? |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 08:37 AM |
#104 |
    -
I said many, many Arabs and Palestinians are Holocaust deniers |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 08:40 AM |
#105 |
    -
And you provided no proof of that.... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 08:42 AM |
#107 |
    -
Of course there was proof |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 08:43 AM |
#108 |
    -
No there was no proof.... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 08:47 AM |
#111 |
    -
Ok, Violet, if that helps you sleep at night! |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 08:47 AM |
#112 |
    -
Nothing to do with sleep. I'm just pointing out the bleeding obvious...n/t |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 08:50 AM |
#114 |
    -
Ken, I don't think the critics mean the Hologcaust is political, but rather that the way the |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-31-09 07:03 AM |
#126 |
   -
so... arrogant |
Shaktimaan |
Mar-30-09 07:46 AM |
#92 |
  -
so,,,,hypocritical... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 07:58 AM |
#94 |
  -
You think? well, let's see... |
Shaktimaan |
Mar-30-09 11:43 AM |
#116 |
  -
Yeah, I think what yr saying is bullshit... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-31-09 06:57 AM |
#125 |
  -
So in the spirit of mutual exchange |
azurnoir |
Mar-29-09 01:17 PM |
#21 |
 -
What was mutual about this? |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 03:05 PM |
#26 |
 -
The orchestra director herself requested permission to give this performance |
oberliner |
Mar-29-09 03:31 PM |
#31 |
  -
That's why it's being disbanded. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 04:56 PM |
#37 |
 -
Then it would have been enough to criticize the orchestra leader for that. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 01:16 AM |
#69 |
 -
I agree that the group should be allowed to play, but that they DEFINITELY need new leadership. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-31-09 07:05 AM |
#127 |
 -
Well that was kind of my point n/t |
azurnoir |
Mar-30-09 04:01 PM |
#118 |
 -
I am shocked and saddened by your views on this |
oberliner |
Mar-29-09 11:41 AM |
#11 |
  -
Trotting out a group of children, to entertain the occupiers is inappropriate on every level. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 11:51 AM |
#12 |
 -
I can see why you feel as you do. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 11:54 AM |
#13 |
 -
Collaboration, Appeasement, Kow Tow, Prostration, Capitulation |
GoesTo11 |
Mar-29-09 02:16 PM |
#24 |
 -
Something not mentioned in the article |
azurnoir |
Mar-29-09 02:30 PM |
#25 |
 -
You consider that people living in Holon are occupiers? |
henank |
Mar-29-09 03:51 PM |
#34 |
 -
Every citizen in Israel bears responsibility for the ongoing violent military institution. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 04:57 PM |
#38 |
 -
Even old age pensioners with numbers tattooed on their arms? |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 01:20 AM |
#70 |
 -
I emphatically disagree with that... |
LeftishBrit |
Mar-30-09 06:08 AM |
#80 |
 -
I disagree. I belive that in a democracy all citizens are responsible for the actions of |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-30-09 07:36 AM |
#90 |
 -
do you hold Palestinians to that standard, in their "democracy"? |
shira |
Mar-30-09 08:26 PM |
#120 |
 -
Unfortuantely, Israel has not allowed Palestine the luxury of a representative democracy. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-31-09 05:54 AM |
#122 |
 -
Depends on the children and the Afrikaners, doesn't it? |
Igel |
Mar-29-09 04:02 PM |
#35 |
  -
Do you think those elderly Israelis bear no responsibility for Israel's ongoing occupation? |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 04:59 PM |
#39 |
 -
They may bear some responsibility(depending on what they themselves did back in the day |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 01:21 AM |
#71 |
 -
That analogy SO doesn't work |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 12:38 AM |
#59 |
-
Hoping those who express their sadness will answer this question: |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 03:14 PM |
#27 |
 -
If a Black South African youth orchestra conductor asked if his/her group could perform |
oberliner |
Mar-29-09 03:50 PM |
#33 |
  -
OMG. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 05:00 PM |
#40 |
 -
Jews in camps playing for Nazis? |
oberliner |
Mar-29-09 05:50 PM |
#43 |
 -
I guess so. Victims entertaining oppressors, in ANY situation, is inappropriate. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 08:51 PM |
#50 |
 -
Why does it matter who stops the hatred first? |
Jefferson23 |
Mar-29-09 05:45 PM |
#42 |
  -
The so-called "hatred" won't stop until the behavior that creates it stops. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 08:52 PM |
#51 |
 -
And nothing else in between is acceptable? |
Jefferson23 |
Mar-29-09 09:21 PM |
#53 |
 -
Truthfully, I think |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 09:41 PM |
#54 |
 -
I said I would comment no more, but here I feel I must add one |
Jefferson23 |
Mar-29-09 10:22 PM |
#56 |
 -
"Those poor kids in Jenin have nothing..." |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 01:27 AM |
#73 |
 -
I hear what you're saying. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-30-09 05:33 AM |
#75 |
 -
I'm glad to hear that. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 06:34 AM |
#83 |
 -
Let me be clear: I am a 100% believer in the value of the arts for building bridges. |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-30-09 07:27 AM |
#89 |
 -
That's nothing like this situation |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 01:25 AM |
#72 |
-
Not only that |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 06:06 AM |
#79 |
-
Well, I must say this interest in the musical abilities of Palestinian children is ecouraging. |
bemildred |
Mar-29-09 06:38 PM |
#44 |
-
Palestinian orchestra |
lwiz2003 |
Mar-29-09 07:40 PM |
#47 |
 -
The goal is not "improvement of Palestinians lives." The goal is freedom -- |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-29-09 09:14 PM |
#52 |
  -
I can agree with a lot of what you say in that post. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 01:06 AM |
#66 |
 -
Eh, welcome to DU. |
bemildred |
Mar-29-09 10:01 PM |
#55 |
  -
palestinian orchestra |
lwiz2003 |
Mar-30-09 12:19 AM |
#57 |
 -
Very interesting and inspiring post |
LeftishBrit |
Mar-30-09 03:28 AM |
#74 |
 -
I think you covered just about everything I was thinking... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 05:51 AM |
#77 |
-
Well they could be training as minstrals of sorts n/t |
azurnoir |
Mar-30-09 12:35 AM |
#58 |
 -
It's a shame we can't talk about the 2 different ways this is viewed, rather than just be "shocked" |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-30-09 05:34 AM |
#76 |
-
The shock comes from your attitude |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 06:08 AM |
#81 |
 -
Oh Veggie! I have so missed you... |
ProgressiveMuslim |
Mar-30-09 06:44 AM |
#86 |
-
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-30-09 06:46 AM |
#87 |
-
She doesn't have supporters and she hasn't driven anyone away... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 07:17 AM |
#88 |
-
So speaks the most disagreeable person on this forum! |
Vegasaurus |
Mar-30-09 08:19 AM |
#95 |
-
Coming from the most ignorant troll on the forum, I can't say I'm worried what you think... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 08:22 AM |
#97 |
-
Talking about how *shocked!!!!* we are makes it so we don't have to talk about anything else... |
Violet_Crumble |
Mar-30-09 06:08 AM |
#82 |
-
With you on that one. |
Ken Burch |
Mar-30-09 01:12 AM |
#67 |