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Reply #88: Two Points Seem Worth Engaging, Sir, Though It Is Not My Purpose In This Thread To Debate [View All]

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-04-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #78
88. Two Points Seem Worth Engaging, Sir, Though It Is Not My Purpose In This Thread To Debate
First, the illegality of the Israeli settlements under international is bright line stuff now. The World Court recently issued an advisory opinion, on the question of the security barrier, which in the course of concluding jurisdiction existed, affirmed that the Geneva Accords apply to the areas over-run in '67. Regardless of one's views of their conclusions concerning how these applied to the case of the security barrier, the conclusion the Geneva rules apply to the territory in the first place is unassailable, and constitutes controlling legal precent in the matter. No future tribunal can be expected to rule otherwise on this question. The Geneva Accords apply. They explicitly bar the settlement of a portion of an occupying power's population on land it holds under military occupation. It really is that flat, and no amount of ink, however ingeniously spilled, can change it.

Jerusalem is a difficult nut: it has symbolic value, and when symbol takes over from actuality, sense and reason decamp for more congenial climes. The Armistice Line left most of the city in Israeli hands, and its Old Quarter in the hands of Trans-Jordan; events of '67 put this into Israeli hands. Jews, and by extension the Jewish state of Israel, view Jerusalem as their spiritual capital; the Arab of Palestine view Jerusalem as their crown jewel, since it has sacred status within the Moslem faith predominant among them, and of course great sacred to Christians as well. Events during the Mandatory period, and during the period when the Old Quarter was ruled by Jordan, demonstrate adequate reason for Jewish and Israeli fears that their most sacred site cannot be trusted to administration by thier Moslem neighbors. Sovereignty over this will not be relenquished by Israel, under any circumstance, or any pressure short of destruction in absolute military defeat. Moslem feelings over the al' Aqsa mosque are of similar strength. Any solution to Jerusalem must satisfy both feelings. It is worth recalling the original United Nations proposal was for an international administration of Jerusalem, awarding to neither the Arabs or the Jews.

By 'co-dominion' is meant a joint authority ruling the Old Quarter, a small board composed of representatives of both governments, in equal numbers, so that they would have to choose between getting along or letting a thing both value highly go to ruin. The arrangement would allow both sides to claim sovereignty in the Old Quarter, and even allow either or both to employ it as their capital if they chose. Sovereignty over the principal 'holy sites' would be single, held by the respective country, and easements from the chief territory of each to same be specified and irrevocable. Shoud either side wish to establish its capital in the area, the same arrangements would apply for those governmental structures.
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  -A Modest Proposal In Outline For a Peaceable Resolution.... The Magistrate  Jan-03-09 03:17 PM   #0 
  - Link?  ProgressiveMuslim   Jan-03-09 03:17 PM   #1 
  - Define: Ethnic Cleansing  StudsT   Jan-04-09 07:00 PM   #84 
  - Sir, I wish they would but sadly I think not  Duckhunter935   Jan-03-09 03:18 PM   #2 
  - This post is allowed to stand as an exception  Lithos   Jan-03-09 03:23 PM   #3 
  - Your Indulgence Is Appreciated, Sir  The Magistrate   Jan-03-09 03:24 PM   #5 
  - Thanks, Lithos. n/t  sfexpat2000   Jan-03-09 03:53 PM   #14 
  - Thank you, sir  Duckhunter935   Jan-03-09 04:33 PM   #22 
  - A respectable peace may be desired, but until it is in the hearts  mmonk   Jan-04-09 02:20 PM   #70 
     - Unfortunately True, Sir  The Magistrate   Jan-04-09 05:08 PM   #77 
        - I have family in Israel...  Juniperx   Jan-05-09 04:49 PM   #98 
           - Hear Hear, Ma'am....  The Magistrate   Jan-06-09 05:04 PM   #100 
  - ALL settlements in Palestine must be dismantled. The WALL in Palestine must be torn down.  chimpymustgo   Jan-03-09 03:24 PM   #4 
  - The wall is the one that prevents would be suicide bombers from crossing  question everything   Jan-03-09 03:59 PM   #16 
  - Then build it in Israel on Israeli land. nt.  Warren Stupidity   Jan-03-09 04:44 PM   #26 
  - If Israel wants a fucking wall, it needs to build it on its OWN land.  chimpymustgo   Jan-04-09 06:46 AM   #52 
  - Must the arab countries  sabbat hunter   Jan-03-09 04:30 PM   #21 
     - Their compensation was Eretz Yisrael  dmesg   Jan-04-09 07:06 PM   #85 
        - give me a break  sabbat hunter   Jan-05-09 09:03 AM   #94 
           - Because most of them are still in refugee camps?  dmesg   Jan-05-09 11:40 AM   #97 
              - Most of them being in refugee camps is not necessarily  Madam Mossfern   Jan-06-09 05:48 PM   #102 
  - Great post  LeftishBrit   Jan-03-09 03:29 PM   #6 
  - The issue is one of fear  Lithos   Jan-03-09 03:35 PM   #8 
     - It is My Firm Belief, Sir, That a Majority Of Persons Among Both Peoples  The Magistrate   Jan-03-09 03:37 PM   #9 
        - I agree with you on the end results that would be fairest  Lithos   Jan-03-09 03:46 PM   #10 
           - Very True, Sir  The Magistrate   Jan-03-09 03:51 PM   #12 
  - I can't see anything wrong with that proposal  independentpiney   Jan-03-09 03:30 PM   #7 
  - Are militant groups in Israel who refuse to accept the existence  Warren Stupidity   Jan-03-09 03:51 PM   #11 
  - They already are and have been (nt)  question everything   Jan-03-09 04:02 PM   #17 
     - Likud continues to reject Palestinian statehood.  Warren Stupidity   Jan-03-09 04:29 PM   #20 
        - could you provide some links for that?  cali   Jan-03-09 05:33 PM   #36 
           - Sure  Warren Stupidity   Jan-03-09 07:17 PM   #45 
  - A very reasonable proposal..  Mudoria   Jan-03-09 03:52 PM   #13 
  - That is an attractive idea. n/t  sfexpat2000   Jan-03-09 04:05 PM   #18 
  - They tried that  sabbat hunter   Jan-04-09 12:24 PM   #62 
  - The sad reality is that Israelis pretty much accepted these guidelines  question everything   Jan-03-09 03:57 PM   #15 
  - SOmething similar was already proposed and rejected over a decade ago  Vegasaurus   Jan-03-09 04:28 PM   #19 
  - Indeed  Donald Ian Rankin   Jan-04-09 06:50 PM   #82 
  - The only reasonable proposal  Taitertots   Jan-03-09 04:35 PM   #23 
  - What is Your View Of Israeli Settlements In The Jordan Valley, Sir?  The Magistrate   Jan-03-09 04:38 PM   #24 
  - A rather one sided view of the conflict.  Warren Stupidity   Jan-03-09 04:43 PM   #25 
     - I could say the same thing  Taitertots   Jan-03-09 05:21 PM   #34 
  - does the newly formed arab state of Palestine have a standing army?  Magic Rat   Jan-03-09 04:45 PM   #27 
  - A State Like Any Other, Sir, With Every Element Of The Normal Panoply Of Sovereignity  The Magistrate   Jan-03-09 04:47 PM   #28 
     - and Israel would allow the Palestinians a standing army?  Magic Rat   Jan-03-09 04:49 PM   #29 
        - No State Has Any Control Over Another State's Armed Forces, Sir  The Magistrate   Jan-03-09 04:51 PM   #30 
  - Fair enough Sir  azurnoir   Jan-03-09 05:10 PM   #31 
  - If right of return is removed as a demand  Vegasaurus   Jan-03-09 05:16 PM   #33 
  - Compensation, Ma'am, Need Not Come From the Offender  The Magistrate   Jan-03-09 05:32 PM   #35 
     - Thank you and may I add  azurnoir   Jan-03-09 05:37 PM   #37 
        - Without Descending Too Far Into 'Psycho-Babble', Ma'am  The Magistrate   Jan-03-09 05:52 PM   #38 
           - Short hand  azurnoir   Jan-04-09 09:30 AM   #56 
              - Life Is Contingent, Ma'am: One Must Work with the Material Available  The Magistrate   Jan-04-09 01:07 PM   #66 
  - It is so nice to see a civil debate, again thank you  Duckhunter935   Jan-03-09 05:11 PM   #32 
  - Laughable.  ellisonz   Jan-03-09 06:00 PM   #39 
  - Regarding one sticking point  Fozzledick   Jan-03-09 06:28 PM   #40 
  - The Original Partition Of 1947, Sir  The Magistrate   Jan-03-09 06:40 PM   #42 
     - Indeed, at that time the Israelis would have happily accepted such a compromise  Fozzledick   Jan-03-09 06:48 PM   #43 
  - Interesting thread.  adsosletter   Jan-03-09 06:34 PM   #41 
  - this is reasonably close to what was almost agreed at Taba in January 2001  Douglas Carpenter   Jan-03-09 06:52 PM   #44 
  - THANK you for posting this. Another BIG LIE has grown out of Taba. "Arafat was offered 99% of what  chimpymustgo   Jan-04-09 07:02 AM   #54 
  - "with perhaps a few exceptions" my darling you you've sealed a portion of your own fate...  bridgit   Jan-03-09 07:52 PM   #46 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Jan-03-09 08:20 PM   #49 
  - Palestinians are fighting a war of national liberation, just as the Algerians did against France  IndianaGreen   Jan-03-09 08:18 PM   #47 
  - That Is So Last Thursday, Ma'am....  The Magistrate   Jan-03-09 08:20 PM   #48 
  - America will sink into the Afghanistan quagmire, and tired and bankrupt  IndianaGreen   Jan-03-09 08:23 PM   #50 
     - Time, Ma'am, is The Avenger....  The Magistrate   Jan-04-09 02:08 AM   #51 
  - If that were so,  aranthus   Jan-04-09 06:18 PM   #79 
  - Give voice to the folks working for peace i.e. dilute the power of the M$M to perpetuate the lies  StudsT   Jan-04-09 06:57 AM   #53 
  - Sounds like Hamas' position  ProgressiveMuslim   Jan-04-09 09:13 AM   #55 
  - Unfortunately, Ma'am, That Is Not Really The Case  The Magistrate   Jan-04-09 11:50 AM   #58 
  - Fact is, you have no idea what you're talking about.  ProgressiveMuslim   Jan-04-09 12:16 PM   #61 
  - My Ignorance, Ma'am, Is Legend....  The Magistrate   Jan-04-09 12:59 PM   #65 
     - Is there a code so I can figure out on which threads you'll be harrassing me  ProgressiveMuslim   Jan-04-09 01:26 PM   #67 
  - Not much of a chance for that  Vegasaurus   Jan-04-09 12:41 PM   #64 
     - I don't think that's quite true, thankfully.  Donald Ian Rankin   Jan-04-09 06:46 PM   #81 
  - Does  sabbat hunter   Jan-04-09 12:29 PM   #63 
  - Your proposal has precisely zero chance of being implemented  IWantAnyDem   Jan-04-09 09:33 AM   #57 
  - My Intention, Sir, Was Simply To Present An Outline Proposal Of A genuine And Reasonable Compromise  The Magistrate   Jan-04-09 11:54 AM   #59 
     - I must state emphatically, your proposal was extremely reasonable  IWantAnyDem   Jan-04-09 11:59 AM   #60 
  - Essentially the Saudi plan, no?  subsuelo   Jan-04-09 01:38 PM   #68 
  - That Proposal, Sir, Seemed A Promising Step  The Magistrate   Jan-04-09 01:45 PM   #69 
  - If a Palestinian state were formed bounded by approx. the green line of 1949/50  iconicgnom   Jan-04-09 03:00 PM   #71 
  - Well, the minority vote of UNSCOP was for a federal system  Malikshah   Jan-04-09 04:16 PM   #75 
     - True, Sir  The Magistrate   Jan-05-09 08:01 PM   #99 
  - All settlements regardless of locale must be removed. All. Creeping annexation is not a path to a  Malikshah   Jan-04-09 03:18 PM   #72 
  - A Pleasure To See You Here, Sir  The Magistrate   Jan-04-09 03:41 PM   #73 
     - If Obama is serious, he needs to get tough with Israel  Malikshah   Jan-04-09 04:15 PM   #74 
        - A Good Article, Sir: Thank You For Calling Attention To It  The Magistrate   Jan-04-09 04:18 PM   #76 
  - Food for thought. Some comments.  aranthus   Jan-04-09 05:57 PM   #78 
  - Two Points Seem Worth Engaging, Sir, Though It Is Not My Purpose In This Thread To Debate  The Magistrate   Jan-04-09 07:26 PM   #88 
     - Fair enough.  aranthus   Jan-04-09 07:46 PM   #89 
        - Thank You, Sir  The Magistrate   Jan-04-09 07:53 PM   #90 
           - Yet more food for thought. n/t  aranthus   Jan-04-09 11:30 PM   #91 
              - My Thanks Again, Sir  The Magistrate   Jan-05-09 02:57 AM   #92 
  - Simple Solution: One Side Divides the Land; the Other Side  Blue Meany   Jan-04-09 06:45 PM   #80 
  - Should the jews  sabbat hunter   Jan-04-09 06:57 PM   #83 
     - Sure. I don't believe in one-sided rules. But I think you will find  Blue Meany   Jan-04-09 07:10 PM   #86 
        - actually  sabbat hunter   Jan-04-09 07:21 PM   #87 
           - Link  sabbat hunter   Jan-05-09 09:02 AM   #93 
           - No one cares about the Jews that were forcibly thrown out of Arab lands  Vegasaurus   Jan-05-09 09:06 AM   #95 
  - Imagine if soon-to-be President Obama were to publicly advance a plan  Douglas Carpenter   Jan-05-09 09:44 AM   #96 
  - Who could possibly be opposed to such a plan?  ProgressiveMuslim   Jan-06-09 05:48 PM   #103 
     - However Indirectly Offered, Ma'am  The Magistrate   Jan-06-09 09:33 PM   #105 
  - I cannot find anything to argue with in your post  AnOhioan   Jan-06-09 05:11 PM   #101 
  - The Outline for Peace - Bernard Weiner  StudsT   Jan-06-09 06:01 PM   #104 
  - What Boggles My Mind.  Mike 03   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #106 
  - I think there is an awareness among the people of both Israel  mmonk   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #107 
  - The U.S. can put a stop to it at a moment's notice  subsuelo   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #108 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #109 
  - Then how do you explain the existence of Israeli peace groups?  LeftishBrit   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #111 
  - There seems to be a drive to colonize the land that exists over and above the will of individual  ProgressiveMuslim   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #112 
  - I also think that (although it is an unpopular opinion)  Vegasaurus   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #116 
  - i think only the extremist believe in that, truly  StudsT   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #115 
     - The land gobble has not ceased in a century.  ProgressiveMuslim   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #118 
        - it will definitely require an independent and honest arbiter to settle this  StudsT   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #120 
        - absurd  shira   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #124 
           - Contrary to popular mythology in some circles, the Palestinians did NOT walk out of Taba  Douglas Carpenter   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #125 
              - Thank you sir  azurnoir   Jan-07-09 01:43 AM   #129 
  - Sadly wars tend to drive out empathy between groups..  LeftishBrit   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #110 
  - Where does this group exist? Why no Arab-based opinions on the Opinion section?  ProgressiveMuslim   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #114 
     - It is a major component  Lithos   Jan-07-09 02:42 AM   #130 
     - What are you talking about?  ProgressiveMuslim   Jan-07-09 05:56 AM   #131 
     - Your comment  Lithos   Jan-07-09 09:09 AM   #133 
     - I mentioned this particular organization in response to Mike's post about people who are bereaved or  LeftishBrit   Jan-07-09 06:37 AM   #132 
        - It Sounds Like a Decent Bunch, Ma'am  The Magistrate   Jan-07-09 05:29 PM   #134 
        - LB, this conflict is not driven by what average Israeli citizens want.  ProgressiveMuslim   Jan-08-09 06:03 AM   #135 
  - of course it is the leaders that call all the shots and who are usually well protected & well to do  StudsT   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #113 
  - Sorry, this post was another stupid wishful post on my part.  Mike 03   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #117 
  - i think it is good to have a cathartic post and i do appreciate reading them  StudsT   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #119 
  - Thanks, I noticed some atrocious typos I should have fixed, but it was too late to edit the post.  Mike 03   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #121 
     - eh, that only makes it more human/appealing =)  StudsT   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #122 
  - I Appreciate Your Comment Above, Sir: It Is An Excellent One  The Magistrate   Jan-07-09 01:18 AM   #127 
  - Very thoughtful post.  ShadesOfGrey   Jan-06-09 10:45 PM   #123 
  - I can relate to the OP but I've never understood  TheKentuckian   Jan-07-09 12:20 AM   #126 
  - A Couple Of Points, Sir  The Magistrate   Jan-07-09 01:21 AM   #128 
  - If only they would listen to you  Marrah_G   Jan-08-09 06:16 AM   #136 

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