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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-28-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. I would suspect
Edited on Thu Feb-28-08 11:28 PM by Douglas Carpenter
That when Jewish migration first began there was not a general impression among the Palestinian-Arab population that these relatively small Jewish communities had any intention of creating a Zionist state. Probably because most of the early migrants from all that I gather did NOT have that agenda. When Mr. Herzl's book, "The Jewish State" was first released in 1896- besides the Agenda of an explicitly Zionist state starting to gain increased traction among many Jewish people - news of this agenda rapidly spread among the Palestinian-Arab population and throughout the region - both by word of mouth and by the printed word as well.

I would also surmise that when land purchase began to occur in a major way - this also changed the impression. Besides the reality that most of the largest land purchases were from absentee owners - a new foreign idea about what land purchase actually meant was introduced. Previously, as I understand the matter - when land ownership changed hands - the relationship of the tenants to the land generally remained basically unchanged. They continued living and perhaps paying modest rent in terms of produce, labor or perhaps even money as they always had before. However the Zionist purchases frequently came with the expectation that the tenants would have to vacate to make room for colonies of new immigrants. This would have been a foreign concept.

I would also guess that when the numbers of European Jewish immigrants started to reach a certain level - the Palestinian-Arab community reacted with a feeling that they were being taken over. And they reacted like people react when they feel their way of life is threatened by outsiders.

I gather that even the long established old Jewish communities of Palestine along with their Muslim and Christian neighbors were somewhat culture shocked by the ways and customs of these the new European Jewish immigrants who probably clashed with this conservative culture. When their numbers were small - it could be overlooked. As their numbers grew - it would seem that the indigenous people felt their way of life was under mortal threat and land considered holy was being profaned.

I'm sure you have some thoughts about this too. I don't think there is any one single answer to that question.

I suppose this all begs the question as to whether or not it would have been possible to have large scale Jewish migration to Palestine without it resulting in a violent life or death struggle over the same piece of land. I think it would have been possible if the agenda did not include the establishment of an explicitly Jewish state. Given that a state by the very nature of what a state is - I cannot imagine that any indigenous people would have accepted that. Also it would have required the new immigrants to maintain a respectful attitude to the local people and their culture. Unfortunately, once the numbers reached a certain level - the Zionist were no more capable of that than other colonialist throughout history. Western people (and probably other relatively wealthier, more formally educated and technologically advanced people as well) have this terrible tendency to treat local peoples as inferiors and view their cultures with contempt. Even western expatriates, tourist and military people have a terrible tendency to treat third-world peoples this way - even today.
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  -UN expert: Palestinian terror 'inevitable' result of occupation bemildred  Feb-26-08 11:55 AM   #0 
  - And this is a surpise to anyone?  PDJane   Feb-26-08 12:02 PM   #1 
  - Oh, I can assure you that it will be a surprise to many on this board  Crunchy Frog   Feb-26-08 12:05 PM   #2 
  - Before the Intifada and suicide bombings there were no roadblocks as now  Dick Dastardly   Feb-26-08 07:31 PM   #37 
     - "the main cause of the conflict"  subsuelo   Feb-26-08 09:18 PM   #44 
        - Sure I thought about it but its not what caused it  Dick Dastardly   Feb-26-08 10:12 PM   #48 
           - The Jews stole no land?  Violet_Crumble   Feb-26-08 10:16 PM   #49 
              - Denial is always the follow up to truth being told  subsuelo   Feb-26-08 10:22 PM   #51 
              - What I don't get is how anyone could deny Israel has seized Palestinian land...  Violet_Crumble   Feb-26-08 10:27 PM   #52 
              - Especially for those who cant back up their claims  Dick Dastardly   Feb-26-08 11:09 PM   #55 
              - There were no Israelis then, It was Arab and Jewish players.  Dick Dastardly   Feb-26-08 10:52 PM   #54 
                 - When? How come yr the only person who's going on about pre-Israel times?  Violet_Crumble   Feb-27-08 06:02 AM   #63 
                    - We were talking about the main cause of the conflict.  Dick Dastardly   Feb-27-08 05:37 PM   #73 
                       - And one of the main causes of the conflict is the dispossession of the Palestinians...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-01-08 05:23 AM   #88 
                          - Sub claimed the Jews stole the land back in pre Israel days.  Dick Dastardly   Mar-01-08 04:31 PM   #90 
                             - They said nothing of the sort...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-01-08 06:23 PM   #91 
                                - Exactly, we were talking about the main cause that started the conflict  Dick Dastardly   Mar-01-08 06:58 PM   #92 
                                   - Well, reading what people actually post is what I do...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-01-08 07:13 PM   #93 
  - Makes sense. nt  thereismore   Feb-26-08 12:05 PM   #3 
  - Yeah, it's almost like there is some sort of pattern to these things. nt  bemildred   Feb-26-08 12:08 PM   #4 
  - This made me chuckle...  breakaleg   Feb-26-08 12:15 PM   #5 
  - Maybe because  eyl   Mar-05-08 06:42 AM   #95 
  - Dugard is not the least bit qualified  Phx_Dem   Feb-26-08 12:25 PM   #6 
  - He looks far more qualified to do so than many others I've seen comment on the conflict...  Violet_Crumble   Feb-26-08 04:23 PM   #21 
  - John Dugard  bemildred   Feb-26-08 05:10 PM   #24 
     - He is a lawyer  Phx_Dem   Feb-26-08 05:39 PM   #27 
        - No shit, a lawyer?  bemildred   Feb-26-08 05:47 PM   #28 
           - He's writing in an official capacity for the UN  Phx_Dem   Feb-26-08 06:16 PM   #32 
              - Look, there is no requirement for expressing an opinion.  bemildred   Feb-26-08 06:21 PM   #33 
                 - And he'd make more sense as well.  Jim Sagle   Feb-26-08 09:41 PM   #46 
                    - Speak of the devil. nt  bemildred   Feb-27-08 01:04 AM   #58 
                       - All you really need is love.  Jim Sagle   Feb-27-08 06:36 AM   #65 
                          - Its a Small World  bemildred   Feb-27-08 07:59 AM   #67 
  - If we accept this argument...  subsuelo   Feb-26-08 12:37 PM   #7 
  - Actions and situations may be both "inexcusable" and "inevitable".  bemildred   Feb-26-08 12:53 PM   #9 
  - Good points  subsuelo   Feb-26-08 02:29 PM   #12 
     - Sure, why would you not?  bemildred   Feb-26-08 03:33 PM   #15 
        - "How could you deny that it works the same both ways?"  subsuelo   Feb-26-08 03:39 PM   #17 
           - That works for me. nt  bemildred   Feb-26-08 03:45 PM   #18 
  - ITA - great post!  LeftishBrit   Feb-26-08 01:40 PM   #11 
  - Here's what I fundamentally don't understand:  ProgressiveMuslim   Feb-26-08 02:46 PM   #13 
     - I never said both sides are equally responsible  subsuelo   Feb-26-08 02:49 PM   #14 
     - What "huge immoral act" are you referring to?  Phx_Dem   Feb-26-08 03:38 PM   #16 
        - the partition plan was not the immoral act.  PDJane   Feb-26-08 04:17 PM   #20 
        - Res 181 was only implemented by the Israelis  Phx_Dem   Feb-26-08 05:32 PM   #26 
        - That isn't what I said, and you're not listening.  PDJane   Feb-26-08 05:49 PM   #29 
           - You are wrong  Dick Dastardly   Feb-26-08 08:12 PM   #40 
        - Your facts are incorrect.  Shaktimaan   Feb-27-08 12:29 AM   #57 
           - Could you post some more info on this compensation?  Violet_Crumble   Feb-27-08 06:06 AM   #64 
              - sure  Shaktimaan   Feb-28-08 11:25 AM   #79 
                 - Wonder if the Arabs compensated the Jews that they chased out of all their countries  Vegasaurus   Feb-28-08 12:40 PM   #80 
                 - I noticed there were no references in there to support his claims...  Violet_Crumble   Mar-01-08 05:30 AM   #89 
        - It's obvious that PM is talking about the occupation...  Violet_Crumble   Feb-26-08 04:36 PM   #22 
           - Abbas does support 2 states  Phx_Dem   Feb-26-08 05:26 PM   #25 
              - No, it couldn't.  PDJane   Feb-26-08 05:54 PM   #31 
  - hypocrisy of Israel's UN Ambassador  subsuelo   Feb-26-08 12:44 PM   #8 
  - Come come, Mr Levanon is a dispassionate and objective observer  bemildred   Feb-26-08 03:53 PM   #19 
  - And Israeli govt. terror against the civilian population is a natural requirement  Tom Joad   Feb-26-08 01:12 PM   #10 
  - I couldn't find the report on the website...  Violet_Crumble   Feb-26-08 04:38 PM   #23 
  - here  Behind the Aegis   Feb-26-08 05:51 PM   #30 
     - I'm getting a weird error message when I click on it n/t  Violet_Crumble   Feb-26-08 07:40 PM   #38 
        - OK..try this.  Behind the Aegis   Feb-26-08 10:21 PM   #50 
           - Thanks. That got me to the report...  Violet_Crumble   Feb-27-08 04:45 AM   #60 
  - East Timor was brutally occupied for 25 years by Indonesia  oberliner   Feb-26-08 06:30 PM   #34 
  - I don't see your point.  bemildred   Feb-26-08 06:47 PM   #35 
  - This piece suggests that Palestinian terrorism is inevitable due to the Occupation  oberliner   Feb-26-08 08:46 PM   #42 
     - I think he's speaking in the specific case, I don't think he's proposing a general rule.  bemildred   Feb-27-08 01:16 AM   #59 
        - Dugard seems to be making a broader statement  oberliner   Feb-27-08 07:53 AM   #66 
        - That was not my take.  bemildred   Feb-27-08 08:23 AM   #68 
        - Why would terrorism be "inevitable" in I/P  Vegasaurus   Feb-27-08 09:43 AM   #69 
           - I believe Mr Dugard addresses what he thinks the reasons are.  bemildred   Feb-27-08 10:06 AM   #71 
  - I hope yr not thinking that the answer is no...  Violet_Crumble   Feb-26-08 07:27 PM   #36 
     - I am stunned by your characterization of this organization  oberliner   Feb-26-08 08:42 PM   #41 
        - Then you'll be even more aghast when I tell you I supported Fretilin...  Violet_Crumble   Feb-26-08 09:05 PM   #43 
           - Sorry about the Australian MSM line  oberliner   Feb-26-08 09:22 PM   #45 
              - Maybe back in the 1970's it did, but I was too young to be taking notice of the MSM then...  Violet_Crumble   Feb-26-08 09:49 PM   #47 
                 - Some say it's going on even today  oberliner   Feb-26-08 11:52 PM   #56 
                    - The indymedia link raises an important issue...  Violet_Crumble   Feb-27-08 05:46 AM   #62 
  - I wish Israel and Palestine could get along  Tinita   Feb-26-08 07:42 PM   #39 
  - Of course  Shaktimaan   Feb-26-08 10:47 PM   #53 
     - ... which is an inevitable consequence of Israeli tyranny over Palestine.  ProgressiveMuslim   Feb-27-08 05:34 AM   #61 
        - except that palestinian terrorism came first. np  Shaktimaan   Feb-27-08 09:50 AM   #70 
        - It's time for reasonable people to take an honest look at historical facts.  ProgressiveMuslim   Feb-27-08 12:03 PM   #72 
           - Reasonable people don't only see the world through one lens  Vegasaurus   Feb-27-08 06:17 PM   #74 
              - Reasonable people see through absurd propaganda and look for historical fact. nt  ProgressiveMuslim   Feb-28-08 05:11 AM   #75 
                 - Do you disagree that it was the Arabs who began the violence in the 20's? np  Shaktimaan   Feb-28-08 11:07 AM   #78 
                    - I think successive waves of aliyah began the conflict. nt  ProgressiveMuslim   Feb-29-08 08:34 AM   #83 
        - what truly boggles my mind is that almost EVERY significant early Zionist understood  Douglas Carpenter   Feb-28-08 09:05 AM   #76 
           - A couple of questions  Lithos   Feb-28-08 10:25 AM   #77 
              - I would suspect  Douglas Carpenter   Feb-28-08 10:58 PM   #81 
                 - i think thats a good description....  pelsar   Feb-29-08 02:28 AM   #82 
                 - I think it's interesting that both pelsar and Shakti  ProgressiveMuslim   Feb-29-08 08:39 AM   #84 
                    - people moving around  pelsar   Feb-29-08 09:55 AM   #85 
                       - Moving around is not the problem. Moving around with the purposes of taking over is.  breakaleg   Feb-29-08 09:58 AM   #86 
                          - That's what I'm trying to hone in on: how can reasonable people look at the same  ProgressiveMuslim   Feb-29-08 10:55 AM   #87 
                 - Excellent post  Lithos   Mar-03-08 02:07 AM   #94 

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