Reply #25: Moreover, don't you think that there's a big irony...

[LeftishBrit]

in Pipes expressing concern that the Muslim immigrants will take over, and destroy Europaean values, when he himself (or at least people whom he endorses) seem to want nothing more than to destroy Europaean values themselves!

Mark Steyn, with his approval, argued that: 'freeing up Europe's funds to build a welfare state. This welfare state had several malign implications...• The nanny state infantilized Europeans, making them worry about such pseudo-issues as climate change, while feminizing the males. .. It also neutered them, annexing "most of the core functions of adulthood," starting with the instinct to breed. From about 1980, birth rates plummeted, leaving an inadequate base for today's workers to receive their pensions. ...• It led to a collapse of confidence that in turn bred "civilizational exhaustion,...leaving Europeans unprepared to fight for their ways. (Americans should)...
.avoid the "bloated European welfare systems," declare them no less than a national security threat, shrink the state, and emphasize the virtues of self-reliance and individual innovation.'

A great endorsement of the best in Europaean values - NOT! In his other article, Pipes quotes, with apparent sympathy people who call Europe the 'Dark Continent' due to its secularism (I assume he doesn't mean AlQuaeda here, though they do share this view, so does he mean the Pat Robertson/ James Dobson crowd)? He complains of lack of Christian observance, just as one of his hated Islamists might despise the Europaeans for not following the true religion of Islam. (BTW, one thing that puzzles me: is Pipes Jewish? I thought he was, but these remarks make me think that either I was wrong, or he is indulging in a very dangerous form of the 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' syndrome.)

You know, maybe I do have a teeny bit of good old British xenophobia after all. I don't like people coming from the outside and attacking the best things of my culture that took years to build, and suggesting that it all be smashed. My country, and my region of the world, may have many faults, but we have some really good things too: our religious tolerance and secular democracy, even in countries that don't have official separation of church and state; our relative gender equality and in particular reproductive choice for women; our relative tolerance for a variety of ways of life and acceptance of eccentricity; our social safety net; our valuing the protection of the vulnerable and the prevention of severe poverty over 'individual self-reliance'. And I'm *not* taking any threat to these great aspects of our way of life lying down. Not from an Islamist, and not from a Christian fundie, and not from followers of Pipes or Steyn either. I realize that Pipes and Steyn probably don't and won't have much real influence (fortunately!) on what happens in Europe. But I will certainly fight against any influence that they, or those whom they influence, do try to have.

As regards your arguments about 'liberal narrative' vs. 'conservative narrative' - well, to some degree I agree with you, but isn't it overall a bit reminiscent of the right-wingers who argue that by allowing gay marriage and reproductive choice, liberals are forcing a secular religion on righties? I will certainly admit some personal bias: as a secular, Jewish, second-generation- immigrant(on one side), slightly disabled, career woman, with elderly relatives who benefit from the health service, I do have plenty of personal interests in preserving liberalism against any resurgence of right-wing values in my country! But in addition I think the right-wing values are potentially truly damaging to so many, and against so much that is good in our culture.